PC What makes A20 differ from (very) early versions or "Why doesnt the game have the 'it' factor anymore"

[Matt115]

 
lol, yeah it would after a short time. I'm all for it. No more trader. 
Really though, it's not the existence of the trader that gets to me. It's just that it's become too important and has taken away from every aspect of survival. You don't have to mine, you don't have to cut down trees, you don't have to farm, you don't have to hunt. You just need to find stuff and trade and if you can do that good enough, you can even skimp out on crafting anything. Sure, you could still do that stuff, but now it's just an optional hobby.

Well but trader woudn't be alone. It would have secruity like sidroviwch have in one of the mods. Well specialisation is rly good - someone is mining, someone is farming someone is looting , and someone is cleaning roads from zombie. Like in medival dynasty. Well im horizon zero dawn some people are harvesting , some are traders etc, This is similiar. Well that's true doing quest for trader is effective  but... well mining was nerfed so much xd

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Well but trader woudn't be alone. It would have secruity like sidroviwch have in one of the mods. Well specialisation is rly good - someone is mining, someone is farming someone is looting , and someone is cleaning roads from zombie. Like in medival dynasty. Well im horizon zero dawn some people are harvesting , some are traders etc, This is similiar. Well that's true doing quest for trader is effective  but... well mining was nerfed so much xd

 
So you would join a settlement and be a miner for them... and still think the game is survival and has "it"?
Welp, I have nothing left to argue against the trader. On top of that, my arguments are pointless because clearly people enjoy this direction the game has gone. I am just someone who does see that the game has lost "it" and I've presented what I believe to be the root cause. There likely are several factors playing together, but if I had to pin it on the most impactful thing, this would be it. People can agree or disagree with my assessment, but in doing so, they should at least present something more qualifying.

 

[theFlu]

For me, the "it" was lost once I felt dependent on the trader.

Yeh, that's pretty big; there's no freedom in the sandbox anymore. Most of my game time is spent on running after the icon the trader chose for me; I have some choice, but realistically, That's where the goodies are. Unless going for something very specific via mining or wrenching.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

For me, the "it" was lost once I felt dependent on the trader.
The trader's importance has kept increasing since A16 and now a playthrough can basically be a set of interactions and transactions.

I loved the trader.
The problem is, that TFPs do not know how to balance properly.
First they overshoot the target, then undershoot it again... until the feature gets completely scrapped or reworked, because it is "not balancable" or "too complicated".

The trader could be SO MUCH MORE.
First only one person, then it becomes a settlement with quests and stuff until it can actually give you recruits to fight hordenight... or something like that.



But even without:

The problem is, that the trader is far and beyond the most effective playstyle. Farming quests is like 10x more efficient than anything else.

I think the trader should hold a much more rapidly changing stock with a smaller sortiment and quest should only be allowed like one per day or even every 3 days (with requirements for the next tier being lowered).
Right now all I do is questfarming until I need to build my funnelhordebase, only to continue questing.
Day 30 with all blue or purple T3 equipment is easily reachable, if you skill correctly.
I still want to argue with myself if I should really use the few shotgunshells I have at that point.
I want to be able to get my first own house going instead of barricading prefabs.
And I want it to be the first time I actually aproach the city, instead of it already being farmed empty.

 

[Hyperbolt]

 
So you would join a settlement and be a miner for them... and still think the game is survival and has "it"?
Welp, I have nothing left to argue against the trader. On top of that, my arguments are pointless because clearly people enjoy this direction the game has gone. I am just someone who does see that the game has lost "it" and I've presented what I believe to be the root cause. There likely are several factors playing together, but if I had to pin it on the most impactful thing, this would be it. People can agree or disagree with my assessment, but in doing so, they should at least present something more qualifying.

I was just thinking about this over the last days!  I also think the game has lost some of the gritty survival-immersion because of the traders. However, i am in no position to complain, im part of the problem too... I enjoy going on quests, and trading a ton of goods with them. 

But keep in mind, the trader is a totally optional thing, we technically never havecto visit them, or take any quests from them, so the solution on this "problem" would simply be to not get tempted by the extra rewards from doing quests. 

Ive thought about this alot, and theb compared to how i played pre-alpha 17.  When i entered a city, i would go to the nearest houses and start loot what i can grab. 

Now with quests, you go to a specific building in the city to loot that, because it benefits you more...

Sure, there are still end-of-dungeon loot rooms, many resource blocks(cement, cobble, stone and wood), and an overall higher amount of loot in the game nowadays, which is a bit hard to ignore. 

But the trader, once again, is a game element that can be completely ignored if one can control their temptations! 

Im also not a fan that quests refills houses with loot over and over... Yes, its a VERY good when playing on a public server, this way you will always have some place to loot! 

However in singleplayer, or with a few friends, my idea of a survival-feeling is that a city has limited stuff, so when everything is looted, youre kinda forced to either migrate elsewhere, or travel far away to loot more. 

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I was just thinking about this over the last days!  I also think the game has lost some of the gritty survival-immersion because of the traders. However, i am in no position to complain, im part of the problem too... I enjoy going on quests, and trading a ton of goods with them. 

But keep in mind, the trader is a totally optional thing, we technically never havecto visit them, or take any quests from them, so the solution on this "problem" would simply be to not get tempted by the extra rewards from doing quests. 

Ive thought about this alot, and theb compared to how i played pre-alpha 17.  When i entered a city, i would go to the nearest houses and start loot what i can grab. 

Now with quests, you go to a specific building in the city to loot that, because it benefits you more...

Sure, there are still end-of-dungeon loot rooms, many resource blocks(cement, cobble, stone and wood), and an overall higher amount of loot in the game nowadays, which is a bit hard to ignore. 

But the trader, once again, is a game element that can be completely ignored if one can control their temptations! 

Im also not a fan that quests refills houses with loot over and over... Yes, its a VERY good when playing on a public server, this way you will always have some place to loot! 

However in singleplayer, or with a few friends, my idea of a survival-feeling is that a city has limited stuff, so when everything is looted, youre kinda forced to either migrate elsewhere, or travel far away to loot more. 

 
I avoided the trader until A19... at least until very late game.
Sure, it can still be optional, but the problem is you would be putting artificial hindrances on yourself because right now it is far easier to trade than to set yourself up with farming, streamlining your mining/materials factory, and bullet factory... especially solo. On top of that, the traders seem to eventually have those missing books you've been searching for (which are very powerful when the set is complete). There once was a time where collecting enough antibiotics was a top priority starting day 1. I don't even think about it anymore because you will get plenty without doubt from the trader.
 
The construction material stashes are second on my list for the most impactful contributor to the loss of "it." Some of them are over the top. There are a couple house attics that are loaded with enough cement to build an entire base. What is it even doing there? The houses aren't even under construction and if they were, who puts their remodeling supplies in the attic?
 
When bandits arrive, they should have bandits take over completed mission POIs as outposts. Then they repair it over time instead of POIs instantly resetting. At this point, the POI can become available as a bandit raid mission, or if they migrate, the POI becomes available for a regular mission again. It even helps explain why loot respawns in the world if you have that active. In this case, it is also fine to have loot rooms in mission POIs because it will take time for the bandits to replenish them.

 

[Hyperbolt]

Sadly, i have no alternative to not put up any artificial hindrances... You can try to set up base very far away from any trader(artificial hindrance), or never put points in BB or daring adventurer(artific. Hind.),  having fewer or no traders on the map with custom generation(art.hin).... Yeah im out of options regarding traders. 

I agree that there is an abundance of basebuilding materials in PoIs, but im guessing its there for those who do not like to spend days mining, but still want to be able to make a base? 

(i like mining, but i am not all players opinion xD) 

Its probably impossible to cater to all type of players in one game, so the fun pimps tries to make a compromise, so its up to us how we deal with it. 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

The trader should have limitations. I know none of these suggestions will ever be put in the game, because it is a casual game now. But I still wanna share them:

a) there should not be quests to find the traders. Especially not in the beginner quest.
b) it should not be open regularly or at least only have very limited times. Like Monday (day%7 = 1) only from 1pm-4pm, Tuesday only 7am-1PM
c) quest and stock needs to be quickly changing and he shouldn't always have quests (some days only a T1 Q, sometimes only 2 T4 quests)
d) we need more interactions out of him
e) he needs to be destructable. It should be like a base that we also need to protect, making us actually care for him and his survival.
f) a wandering trader wound be SO cool. So that he would wander between the different traderoutposts


but yeah. Limiting him is absolutely essential.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Its probably impossible to cater to all type of players in one game, so the fun pimps tries to make a compromise, so its up to us how we deal with it. 

 
Absolutely and I 100% agree with the attempt to provide that for players. However, as Viktoriusiii mentioned, there is currently an imbalance that favors one method (the trader) over the others. There should always be some calculated decision to make depending on your current circumstances. There is no more mental stimulation. Got a problem? The trader is your one-stop solution shop.
 
An alternative to artificial hindrances might be modding. I wouldn't want to remove the traders entirely, though. Again, the problem isn't the existence of traders.

 

[meganoth]

In single player or co-op games the easiest change you can do to make the trader less important is simply to increase all trader prices.

This number is in the first line of traders.xml. Easy to change and then you don't need to artificially constrain yourself.

Sadly there is no single point to decrease quest xp. But you can decrease the quest money reward by incurring money inflation. Just increase buy AND sell prices by a common factor to create an inflation.

In other words, currently the first line of traders is:

<traders buy_markup="3" sell_markdown="0.2" quality_mod="0.4,8" currency_item="casinoCoin" >




Change it to

<traders buy_markup="6" sell_markdown="0.2" quality_mod="0.4,8" currency_item="casinoCoin" >




and the trader is double as expensive as before. Change it further to

<traders buy_markup="12" sell_markdown="0.4" quality_mod="0.4,8" currency_item="casinoCoin" >




and you decreased the inherent value of coins making quest rewards half as important while keeping the value of loot.

PS: If someone tries this, please tell me about the result, in my MP game I can't do this because my co-players like the trader as is.

 

[Hyperbolt]

 
Absolutely and I 100% agree with the attempt to provide that for players. However, as Viktoriusiii mentioned, there is currently an imbalance that favors one method (the trader) over the others. There should always be some calculated decision to make depending on your current circumstances. There is no more mental stimulation. Got a problem? The trader is your one-stop solution shop.
 
An alternative to artificial hindrances might be modding. I wouldn't want to remove the traders entirely, though. Again, the problem isn't the existence of traders.

Another balancing matter, that is! 

Fewer items for sale, or more days between restock?  Or as meganoth stated: increase inflation!

I think in my next playtrough, im gonna first start to not put any points in BB or DA, and then try to behave like the older days, when, for me the trader was a rare and exiting thing that you took a whole day traveling to... Wow, i got nostalgia feels... When going to a trader was a day-long adventure! xD

 

[meganoth]

Another balancing matter, that is! 

Fewer items for sale, or more days between restock?  Or as meganoth stated: increase inflation!

I think in my next playtrough, im gonna first start to not put any points in BB or DA, and then try to behave like the older days, when, for me the trader was a rare and exiting thing that you took a whole day traveling to... Wow, i got nostalgia feels... When going to a trader was a day-long adventure! xD

How about the rule: "You can't visit the same trader twice in a row" or even worse "You have to visit the 5 traders round-robin in a sequence that you select at the start of the game"

 

[JCrook1028]

You don't have to mine, you don't have to cut down trees, you don't have to farm, you don't have to hunt. You just need to find stuff and trade and if you can do that good enough, you can even skimp out on crafting anything.

Every single thing you listed there is a choice you make. You can also not buy everything from the trader. Choices are what makes this game so great.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Every single thing you listed there is a choice you make. You can also not buy everything from the trader. Choices are what makes this game so great.

You can also choose to exploite hordenight.
That argument doesnt work. Period.
Why don't you completely stop playing the game and just imagine the perfect 7d2d?

If something is completely broken, like traders&quests, that everything else is just way less effective, it becomes impossible to balance the game.

Make it harder, every other playstyle gets punished. Balance it around non traders, trader is super easy.
Needing to inforce your own rules in a survival game, just because the game isn't balanced is NOT an excuse.
The devs need to give everything its own incentive.
But this is something TFPs never understood... or at least, do not act like they understand.
If I want to be passive on hordenight and just watch them die, that should be possible. BUT it should have a drawback:
Namely, that you need to farm and build a LOT, in the meantime, you are not able to loot/farm.
But what they did was "we don'T want that, because it is boring! Falldamage can't kill zombies (wtf?) Every trap breaks (even perfectly hidden electric fenceposts)"
Same with sneaking now.

If I use the trader, I can get everything.
But I shouln't get the best stuff. Looting already was the best playstyle, because TFPs love to force the player to go out.
Now it just is 10x more mandetory.

 

 

[JCrook1028]

I can't help it if a player has zero self control. Also, everything listed as a trader wishlist above is already available thru modding. The base game should be just that, the BASE. Much of the beauty of 7dtd is how easily moddable it is. That is intentional by TFP. Make the game what you want it to be in intended behavior. or don't and complain. Again, a choice each player needs to make for themselves.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I can't help it if a player has zero self control.

No.

And luckily TFPs agree with me on this point. They are just... very slow and inaccurate in fixing these things.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Every single thing you listed there is a choice you make. You can also not buy everything from the trader. Choices are what makes this game so great.

 
It would be greater if it were a challenge to come up with that decision though. Survival is a problem that can have many, many solutions. In a survival game, a lot of the fun comes from figuring out what choice is going to work best for you at that given moment. Then, when the game throws a wrench in the works, and you have to adjust on the fly it's even better. Here, they give you the best choice and it never changes. 
 
These aren't complaints. I haven't seen anybody say they cannot enjoy the game anymore. We are discussing some abstract characteristic that once was and now is lost. It's hard to place your finger on it, but I believe I have or at least I am close to it. I don't think anybody is demanding any changes. It's not our game to do that.

 

[Matt115]

You can also choose to exploite hordenight.
That argument doesnt work. Period.
Why don't you completely stop playing the game and just imagine the perfect 7d2d?

If something is completely broken, like traders&quests, that everything else is just way less effective, it becomes impossible to balance the game.

Make it harder, every other playstyle gets punished. Balance it around non traders, trader is super easy.
Needing to inforce your own rules in a survival game, just because the game isn't balanced is NOT an excuse.
The devs need to give everything its own incentive.
But this is something TFPs never understood... or at least, do not act like they understand.
If I want to be passive on hordenight and just watch them die, that should be possible. BUT it should have a drawback:
Namely, that you need to farm and build a LOT, in the meantime, you are not able to loot/farm.
But what they did was "we don'T want that, because it is boring! Falldamage can't kill zombies (wtf?) Every trap breaks (even perfectly hidden electric fenceposts)"
Same with sneaking now.

If I use the trader, I can get everything.
But I shouln't get the best stuff. Looting already was the best playstyle, because TFPs love to force the player to go out.
Now it just is 10x more mandetory.

 

Forcing to looting is bad decision in my opinion.  Well get the best stuff as fast as it is possible well... is very important in survival game so yeah you should. In stalker finding good stuff early is so good

 
It would be greater if it were a challenge to come up with that decision though. Survival is a problem that can have many, many solutions. In a survival game, a lot of the fun comes from figuring out what choice is going to work best for you at that given moment. Then, when the game throws a wrench in the works, and you have to adjust on the fly it's even better. Here, they give you the best choice and it never changes. 
 
These aren't complaints. I haven't seen anybody say they cannot enjoy the game anymore. We are discussing some abstract characteristic that once was and now is lost. It's hard to place your finger on it, but I believe I have or at least I am close to it. I don't think anybody is demanding any changes. It's not our game to do that.

Problem now is not trader but... nerfed of mining - steel parts kiled sens of mining because it is more efficent to find/ buy things that craft

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Problem now is not trader but... nerfed of mining - steel parts kiled sens of mining because it is more efficent to find/ buy things that craft

 
That's a possibility, or another way to look at it. You can look at it like it is a matter of balancing the trader, or balancing everything that the trader affects or indirectly influences (mining, farming, crafting, hunting)... whatever floats your boat. 

 

[Matt115]

 
That's a possibility, or another way to look at it. You can look at it like it is a matter of balancing the trader, or balancing everything that the trader affects or indirectly influences (mining, farming, crafting, hunting)... whatever floats your boat. 

Well farming is now broken and useless if you don't have 3/3 so it need to be repair , hunting is good, crafting is connected with crafting because you mine iron to make tools but without looting or buying steel parts will stuck with iron tools