PC Another pet peeve. Mission rewards don't do me any good

[theFlu]

No, I was just arguing that the OP didn't play the game normally but simply had the goal of exploiting Better Barter and Daring Adventurer and then to respec.

I guess the difference is between "goal of exploiting" versus "I see it as the best way to progress in the game". If the game is giving a clear best way to progress, people will use it, and it might do well to balance it out somewhat. Telling them "not to" is just odd.

Now, I'm not entirely convinced that BB is actually breaking the game in a major way; it's powerful but it's not like it leads to similar levels of stupidity as spamcrafting stone axes. It just alters the looting game from trying to get equipment to trying to earn dukes. It does demolish the pacing of the gear curve, which isn't a massive issue for single player as you're now missing the skill boosts for the gear you have. For multiplayer it's probably quite OP, in multi that's just one player missing out while everyone benefits from the broken gearing curve.

"Fix" .. yeh, that's why I used scare quotes; the issue of spamcrafting isn't an issue anymore, while the resolution wasn't exactly a fix.

I don't entirely buy your logic of XP multi and screamer farming; making the screamer farming 3x more effective is somehow supposed to reduce people's willingness to do it? Sounds more like there's an issue with the default pacing of the early game and the screamer farming was a workaround (as opposed to purely an exploit), with a higher XP it is no longer necessary? Then again, I have no idea how many have stopped or started screamer farming with the multis, you have some data about that?

And traders will of course go through a couple balancing rounds still, I assume the gameplay loop is going to change significantly with bandits and lore features, requiring a lot of re-balancing. But that doesn't make them any less or more powerful currently. Raising prices makes optimizing Barter relatively more powerful etc..

 

[RipClaw]

Then again, I have no idea how many have stopped or started screamer farming with the multis, you have some data about that?

I observed this behavior among streamers like Kage848 or Grand Spartan after the release of A17. Since you can set the XP multiplier, I could no longer observe this behavior. They simply set the XP higher. It is of course understandable that these players want to show their audience something and thus do not want to remain stuck in the early game forever.

 

[JCrook1028]

It was kinda unfun but maybe not for the reason you're thinking; the problem was I was way too powerful way too fast.

Yea, intentionally rushing the game ruins it imo.

In A17, people started farming screamer hordes by lighting campfires. In the end, only one thing made players stop was that you now can change the XP multiplier in the settings. People who want to get to max level as fast as possible just turn it up to 300%.

Nah, they do both. Farming screamers at 300% xp.

 

[Sal]

2 points in Better Barter will only give you better prizes but not a better Secret Stash. For this you need to invest at least 3 points.

And 2 points in Daring Adventurer will only give you more XP, more money and 2 additional things to choose from. But what you can choose from depends on the tier of the quest.

10% more dukes and 10% off is more than enough to buy what you need. Especially with multiple traders and using grandpas sauce, sugar butts, a cigar, and pie. With this you can practically buy out every store by like day 10.

The design goal of the Fun Pimps, from what I've read, was one level per day on average on default settings.

Then I would say they failed miserably in this aspect.

I haven't played with default settings in years but I remember it being way too easy. And just to check if I was remembering this correctly I fired up a game in navezgane using default settings and sure enough it is too easy. I was placed 800m away from the trader and by the time I got there I already leveled up once, had two T2 iron axes, 2 clothing mods, a T2 scrap iron chest armor, and a T1 football helmet.  Night time is not even a threat. On night one I was attacked from behind by a feral Z and a wolf while completing a quest and they only did 26 total damage. That's a stark difference from what I'm used to.

My goto settings are; 1 life, survivor, feral sense all, BM every day or 3 days w/ mixed range, Z speed sprint(x3), nightmare BM, 64 Zs, loot respawn off, air drops off, and every else default.

So you just leave out important parts of the game and then wonder why it gets boring so quickly?

No, it gets boring because you become a god so quickly thanks to the skill system.  I find no fun in playing a zombie game where I practically cant die. RE: The skill point system needs to be revamped.

So why would I want to build a base when I know that by day 25ish I'm gonna be so invincible and have to start over anyways? By the time I complete my base, the game is over.  Plus, building a base makes the game go by that much more faster for me because of the insane amount of XP you get from mining resources and upgrading blocks.

With my settings, I can't go out and loot at night. That's a death sentence. I spend the majority of the night crafting items, prepping food for the next day, and defending a small area or rooftop from a seemingly endless amount of Zs, wolves, lions, and bears. This is more fun to me than mining all night. 

 

[RipClaw]

RE: The skill point system needs to be revamped.

You can revamp it as much as you like. Mod creators do it all the time and it is not difficult to do. Maybe you can create a mod that fits your need and also is something other players like.

 

[Sal]

You can revamp it as much as you like. Mod creators do it all the time and it is not difficult to do. Maybe you can create a mod that fits your need and also is something other players like.

Creating another game is a weird solution to the problem.

 

[Kyonshi]

Creating another game is a weird solution to the problem.

Modding isn't creating another game. Even mods who push the game design the furthest from the Pimps original concept aren't a new game.

Also, what you see being a problem isn't necessarily a factual conclusion. It's just you interpreting some elements and concepts of the game. It's not because you don't agree with something that your claims are right. The skill/perks system will inevitably see other changes and adjustments because the game is still in development, but that's gonna be on the Pimps in the end.

That these systems need a "revamp" is a legitimate suggestion, as good as any other, but that doesn't mean they're fundamentally flawed. I also think that some of the skills are either weak, OP or too inconsequential, but to say they need an overhaul, I wouldn't go as far as saying that. The different difficulty levels we can set our game at have an impact on the relevance of some skills that would be useless with other settings and circumstances. That's what's awesome with this game.

 

[Sal]

Modding isn't creating another game. Even mods who push the game design the furthest from the Pimps original concept aren't a new game.

I understand what mods are. But not all mods are equal either and that's important to note here as well. A B-dubs vehicle mod is not the same as an overhaul mod like Khaine's DF is. One mod just adds items. The other one changes the entire game using the framework of the original.

Anyhow, it was almost said in jest. It was hyperbole way of me saying that suggesting to create my own mod that changes a major element of the game (perk system) would practically be creating a new game just to "fix" a broken aspect of the game. Or atleast a small overhaul anyways. I got Ripclaws point, (there are other options out there to suit your playstyle) but it's kinda ridiculous. I mean, suggesting to someone to create a mod that changes a major part of the game, just because they don't agree with it, is almost like saying "well then go play a game similar to 7DTD then". Which is such a big cop out IMO, and I see it alot on here.

Whatever happened to being able to like a game but not liking everything about it and being able to express it without being told to go learn C++, python, and xpath. (another semi-hyperbole statement but I'm sure you get my point). I freakin love this game and I don't mind starting over after 20-30 days. I've done it +1000s times now within the 2500 hours invested in it. That alone should be proof. But it also doesn't mean that I like everything about it either.

Also, what you see being a problem isn't necessarily a factual conclusion.

You're right. My opinion is not a fact. And neither is anyone else's. As I've said in this thread, everyone plays this game differently and enjoys it in different ways. I'm simply stating what I find to be a problem based on my personal style and preference. Some people still enjoy playing this game even after their an invincible, maxed-out god, and that's fine. But personally, I don't. Which is why it's a problem for me is all.

That said tho, judging by other opinions in this thread would suggest that there is a problem with traders and the BB and DA perks. Or atleast some smoke around it.

The different difficulty levels we can set our game at have an impact on the relevance of some skills that would be useless with other settings and circumstances. That's what's awesome with this game.

This is also very true. For instance, I've set xp to 25% and loot to 33% and now I have to consider putting one of those 4 initial skill points into lucky looter right out the gate instead of say T-rex for example just to counter the settings, whereas I would never even think about it under normal circumstances.

 

[8_Hussars]

This is also very true. For instance, I've set xp to 25% and loot to 33% and now I have to consider putting one of those 4 initial skill points into lucky looter right out the gate instead of say T-rex for example just to counter the settings, whereas I would never even think about it under normal circumstances.

On a side note: With the loot stage mechanic I thought early game Lucky Looter was proven to be ineffective.  Its only really effective for a short period to jump from one loot group to another.
 

With XP that low slowing player progression and zombie scaling; a player should be able to stay well ahead of the zombie difficulty curve without lucky looter. 

 

[ElDudorino]

On average you get one level per day. Which means it takes about 3 weeks to max out these two perks without spending any point to any other perk.

That sounds like a very unfun playthrough to me.

So I checked over various old save files and I've never leveled that slowly, even when I was brand-new and spent half my time staring at perk menus, sorting inventory, or hiding in dark corners so nighttime zombies wouldn't see me.  On average now I get more like 1.5-2 levels per day, depending on settings (but always at 100% xp).  I know the conversation has kinda moved on but it was bugging me that I knew that number didn't make sense.

 

[Rotor]

Well I level at less than 1.  Probably more like 1:2 level:days.  However I don't quest, I am playing survival, other than clearing poi or clearing my immediate exit routes from base, I don't go out of my way to engage Z's.  

100% xp vanilla, 10z max.

 

[ElDudorino]

I'm not sure what effect questing has on leveling speed; it might actually result in slower leveling in some cases because of the time you spend traveling.  On one game where I didn't talk to traders at all I was level 50 by the end of day 30.

I don't avoid zombies, though; don't want them sneaking up on me, after all.

 

[Crater Creator]

Getting back to the OP’s concern, I think Daring Adventurer most directly addresses the quest reward options not meshing well with your character build and plans.  Investing just one point gives you three options instead of two after every quest, and I find even that much significantly improves the chance of being offered something useful.  Better Barter is valuable too, but as for the OP… there’s a perk for that.

 

[Sal]

On a side note: With the loot stage mechanic I thought early game Lucky Looter was proven to be ineffective.  Its only really effective for a short period to jump from one loot group to another.
 

With XP that low slowing player progression and zombie scaling; a player should be able to stay well ahead of the zombie difficulty curve without lucky looter. 

We're getting way off track here but whatever...we're in too deep now at this point lol.  I love LL (and not the rapper either).  It can be a godsend in early game, but I also get your point about how ineffective it can be.  Whether it's effective or not seems to depend on your location, playstyle, and your what aiming for IMO. Especially in early game.

From my experience, the effectiveness of LL seems to depend on which biome you plan to do the majority of looting at. What I mean is, by default, you get an instant loot bonus from each different biome and if you combine this with LL then you'll see a big difference while looting in those higher bonus areas like snow and wasteland. However, the other biomes, where you get less of a biome bonus from (or none at all like the forest) then not so much.

Pretty much, if I'm looting the forest biome then I don't see a big enough difference in loot to justify putting a point into LL in early game. But I do see a significant difference in the snow and wasteland biomes that do make it worth it. The desert and burnt forest seemed to be hit and miss. Sometimes LL can work great for them and other times I feel like I wasted a skill point. JMO.

I'm not sure what effect questing has on leveling speed; it might actually result in slower leveling in some cases because of the time you spend traveling.  

I think one of the changes they made to quests in A20 was to assign quests closer to the trader so that you didn't have to travel as far. I'm not 100% sure on this, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  It sure does seem this way though. I'm no longer being asked to go clear a house 2.7km away on day 1 anymore, that's for sure.