PC Loving A20 except the way loot is COMPLETELY BROKEN

[meganoth]

Huh. Kind of an @%$# response, but okay. But note that I only said it had a guaranteed spawn in the POI (or, hell, even just make it a high chance to spawn) not that it had to be in any specific container, and there are plenty of places in most t5 POIs where you definitely aren't going to be ninja looting stuff by breaking a wall.

Not sure what was $$&% about the response. Guaranteed is guaranteed even if you need to loot a full poi. I don't have any problems looting a POI, so the same argument applies. T5 needs a full day on average, sure, but again, who will NOT do it for a guaranteed item he needs.

Also, not finding a beaker isn't a "problem" or a "calamity" it's a "mild annoyance that makes the game less fun" because a lot of stuff is weirdly gated behind in a way that makes very little sense from either an immersion or survival perspective.

Ok, call it a mild annoyance. It still makes that item sought after and that is one of the core elements of the game. You don't have something, you go looking for it and are super happy if you find it. I'm not speaking against specific items being more common in specific places, like med kits in hospitals, ... . But if it is a guraranteed find we can as well remove it from the game.

Imagine you need some item in the game and the trader has it guaranteed and for free. Would be just a meaningless action to get this item.

I'm not sure if you've noted, but this game is significantly more on the action-rpg side of things than the survival side of things. Subnautica, meanwhile, is a VERY survival-oriented game, moreso than this one, without any action-rpg elements, and its loot is completely deterministic.

So I'm not sure I buy this argument. It doesn't make much sense. Plus the game already has a fairly big chunk of deterministic loot.

Subnautica has almost no replayability, it doesn't matter that the loot is handpicked. Play it multiple times and I'm sure the difficulty and tension drops into bottomless regions.

You know, now that you mention it, I had 3 during devtest, I think day1 I was wearing it but I have yet to find 1 since stable restart.

I'm going to rage quit now, thanks @meganoth 

I'm here to jinx

 

[Boidster]

veryLow = 0.05 probability

I'm unsure if it still works this way, especially with the addition of the "force_prob" attribute on some loot rewards, but in any case it used to be that "0.05" probability did not actually mean 5%. For example in groupChem01, you have a whole bunch of choices:

    <item name="resourceGlue"/>
    <item name="resourceOilShale" count="25,50"/>
    <item name="resourcePotassiumNitratePowder" count="25,50"/>
    <item name="resourceCoal" count="25,50"/>
    <item name="resourceScrapLead" count="25,50"/>
    <item name="drinkJarRiverWater" loot_prob_template="med"/>
    <item name="drinkJarBoiledWater" loot_prob_template="med"/>
    <item name="resourceOil" loot_prob_template="med"/>
    <item name="resourceAcid" loot_prob_template="low"/>
    <item name="resourceTestosteroneExtract" loot_prob_template="low"/>
    <item name="resourceSilverNugget" loot_prob_template="veryLow"/>
    <item name="resourceGoldNugget" loot_prob_template="veryLow"/>
    <item name="toolBeaker" loot_prob_template="veryLow"/>




If it works the way it used to, every item without an explicit probability counts as probability 1.0. The engine then adds them all up and the true probability of any single item is its probability divided by the total. Using the above example:

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 0.5 (med) + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.2 (low) + 0.2 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 = 7.05

So the true probability of toolBeaker - if it still works like it used to - is 0.05 / 7.05 = 0.007 (7 tenths of 1 percent).

 

[nostalginator]

Deterministic loot in a survival game will take a lot of the fun out of the game in the long run, at that point you are looking for an action rpg, not a survival game.

I'm not even asking for deterministic loot.  I'm asking for something between "deterministic" and "62 fishing weights in 7 days."
 

Or you could jiust accept that the game throws random difficulties at you. Not having a chem station is severe blow to your ammo production, but you can buy ammo and blackpowder in adequate quantities, you can manage and that will be a unique playthrough.

But not getting the cheesecake buff leading to a rage quit?? There are worse things that can happen.

There are!  In that moment, however, I did not care.  As I saw it, there was absolutely no real reason for pumpkin seeds to be absolutely unavailable beyond poor programming.  I will resent whatever I choose to resent however I choose to resent it. 

Anyway, since making this post I've found three additional traders, and none of them have beakers OR chem stations.  I've already moved past that save, as Day 28 was shaping up to lead to a disastrous horde night.

 

[Krougal]

Fishing weights are for making bullets, I don't know why you're counting scrap items. You get a lot of them in the trash, because before the apocalypse everyone threw out all their fishing weights because there were no rivers to fish in. If you didn't get them you'd have to mine lead yourself, hell I never mine lead, I just melt down fishing weights.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

RNG is RNG. The lack of the guaranteed loot is one of the best parts of this game, IMO. Loot RNG  has the potential to make one playthrough significantly different from the next. But if not having something is rage inducing just use the creative menu and spawn it in. You can pick the day you think you should have looted it by and spawn it in.

 

[nostalginator]

Fishing weights are for making bullets, I don't know why you're counting scrap items. You get a lot of them in the trash, because before the apocalypse everyone threw out all their fishing weights because there were no rivers to fish in. If you didn't get them you'd have to mine lead yourself, hell I never mine lead, I just melt down fishing weights.

I thought I was seeing more of them than before and wanted to test my perception; that's why I counted them.  There are enough lead trophies (and just raw lead) to be found in loot that it made no difference.  I would much rather mine lead than have beakers/acid be impossible to find when looting, say, a house full of chemistry equipment (you know the one).  I would prefer not to have 62 lemons to make lemonade out of.

 

RNG is RNG. The lack of the guaranteed loot is one of the best parts of this game, IMO. Loot RNG  has the potential to make one playthrough significantly different from the next. But if not having something is rage inducing just use the creative menu and spawn it in. You can pick the day you think you should have looted it by and spawn it in.

I'm not going to do that because I shouldn't have to.  YMMV, but as far as I'm concerned, that menu is for when a bug screws you out of a vehicle or something similar.  Looting was suboptimal in A19, but now it's just broken.  Essential items are now gated behind unnecessarily low probabilities and that gets on my nerves.

 

[Krougal]

I thought I was seeing more of them than before and wanted to test my perception; that's why I counted them.  There are enough lead trophies (and just raw lead) to be found in loot that it made no difference.  I would much rather mine lead than have beakers/acid be impossible to find when looting, say, a house full of chemistry equipment (you know the one).  I would prefer not to have 62 lemons to make lemonade out of.

 

I'm not going to do that because I shouldn't have to.  YMMV, but as far as I'm concerned, that menu is for when a bug screws you out of a vehicle or something similar.  Looting was suboptimal in A19, but now it's just broken.  Essential items are now gated behind unnecessarily low probabilities and that gets on my nerves.

Yeah, and I get it. At some point these things are essential. Can you get by without them like Meganoth said? Sure.

Is it any fun? Not for most of us. The novelty wears off fast.

I would be all for make do with what you have if (I know I sound like a broken record) we didn't have this stupid RPG level & skill system where you are vested into skills you may or may not be able to find the things to make or the weapons you've chosen. THAT is not fun. Respec you say? Oh, wait, I can't because I can't make the potion with no beaker.

So no, it is unreasonable to not be able to find the equipment to make use of your skills.

 

[meganoth]

Yeah, and I get it. At some point these things are essential. Can you get by without them like Meganoth said? Sure.

Is it any fun? Not for most of us. The novelty wears off fast.

I would be all for make do with what you have if (I know I sound like a broken record) we didn't have this stupid RPG level & skill system where you are vested into skills you may or may not be able to find the things to make or the weapons you've chosen. THAT is not fun. Respec you say? Oh, wait, I can't because I can't make the potion with no beaker.

So no, it is unreasonable to not be able to find the equipment to make use of your skills.

Respec you say? The ones that can always be bought from the trader?

(AFAIK respec potions are always available from the trader or were in a previous alpha.)

 

[Krougal]

Respec you say? The ones that can always be bought from the trader?

(AFAIK respec potions are always available from the trader or were in a previous alpha.)

They also cost a fortune. Maybe I don't min/max enough on trading, but I don't tend to have unlimited money until late game.

I'm not sure if they are always available. They do seem to be there most of the time true, but of course the minute I go to buy something is when it tends to go *poof*

 

[ckuebler]

If I am looking for loot specifics, I end up putting a couple of points into Daring Adventurer.  That way you can complete quests, and have a shot of getting that must-have item that you need.  I've seen beakers before as a choice for quest completion prize.  I actually made the choice recently to pass it up because I needed ammo or antibiotic more.  :shrug:

Otherwise, get your keister survivin'!  There's only one thing that is guaranteed - and that's the horde on Sunday.   

 

[meganoth]

They also cost a fortune. Maybe I don't min/max enough on trading, but I don't tend to have unlimited money until late game.

I'm not sure if they are always available. They do seem to be there most of the time true, but of course the minute I go to buy something is when it tends to go *poof*

AFAIK: It is expensive because the player should not be able to use it regularily, it should be the exception. And the reason they are always available at the trader is that the respec should be a general ability the player can use at any time (if he saves up the money naturally)

And I checked the XMLs and it seems it is always there. I'm not 100% sure because it isn't clear how the trader restock is done in detail, but the elixier is in every list of every trader as mandatory item.

 

[Krougal]

Daring Adventurer. 

With the current meta, I consider this an important skill for every build.

AFAIK: It is expensive because the player should not be able to use it regularily, it should be the exception. And the reason they are always available at the trader is that the respec should be a general ability the player can use at any time (if he saves up the money naturally)

And I checked the XMLs and it seems it is always there. I'm not 100% sure because it isn't clear how the trader restock is done in detail, but the elixier is in every list of every trader as mandatory item.

Still all that is neither here nor there, my original argument stands. We shouldn't need to.

 

[Rince]

Aaaah!!! Yesterday found my first beaker!! And not only that, but found FOUR!!

It only took me almost dying several times in Dishong Tower in the Winter Biome!! Funny thing, besides the beaker and lots of ammo I didn't got anything noteworthy.

 

[Outlaw_187]

Yup, it's all up to RNG. My 1st playthrough, I couldn't find antibiotics to save my life. I woulda died of infection had I not started over when experimental updated. 

I do however also find an awful lot of fishings weights. I didn't keep track, I just scrap them on sight, but the probability to find these was most definitely increased in A20.

Oh yeah, I also like the idea of asking the trader for a certain item & they can have you do whatever job or jobs in order to attain it. Great idea.

 

[Krougal]

Aaaah!!! Yesterday found my first beaker!! And not only that, but found FOUR!!

It only took me almost dying several times in Dishong Tower in the Winter Biome!! Funny thing, besides the beaker and lots of ammo I didn't got anything noteworthy.

Nothing noteworthy in Dishong Tower? That's disturbing to say the least! Although I guess 4 beakers is noteworthy...

 

[meganoth]

With the current meta, I consider this an important skill for every build.

Still all that is neither here nor there, my original argument stands. We shouldn't need to.

Because it is unfun? A very subjective statement. And you said "for most of us" which means you act as some kind of community speaker, right? Or made a statistically relevant poll among all players?

Just teasing.

But game designers, if you ask them, will probably tell you that players need to overcome difficulties, challenges and even "unfun" work so they get a feeling of accomplishment.

That is the basis especially of games simulating an open world. You need activities to waste time with and some of them will not be especially fun to some players. For example traveling is often an unfun activity (through known areas at least), but it is necessary as a time sink and to not give the player the ability to be instantly whereever he wants to be, making the open world obsolete.

The same is with giving out items he wants. Getting a steel pickaxe on day 1 is surely a way to make the boring task of hitting stones less unfun. But always giving it out on day 1 will not generate fun to the player since he simply takes that for granted. So giving out stuff at random is a way to make progression rewarding as you will be happy when you find an item you desperately need.

Probably I couldn't convince you though, so I would like to suggest, again, to use creative mode, but simply before playing a world write down on a piece of paper on which day you should get the beaker and on which day you should have 5 acid. On that day just give yourself those items (if you don't have them already). This is in effect exactly what you wanted, just made possible with a scrap of paper.

 

[ckuebler]

Getting a steel pickaxe on day 1 is surely a way to make the boring task of hitting stones less unfun.

Steel pickaxe on day 1 would be an absolute NIGHTMARE!!  Think of how many hours it would take to swing that thing just to break up a rock cluster.  OMG.  And day 1, with no time to have spent perks on strength or sexual t! 

 

[Mahnogard]

Steel pickaxe on day 1 would be an absolute NIGHTMARE!!  Think of how many hours it would take to swing that thing just to break up a rock cluster.  OMG.  And day 1, with no time to have spent perks on strength or sexual t! 

Yeah, every time I see someone talk about finding steel tools early, I think, "But how do you use them??" because I can't even use iron that early without stopping to rest every other swing. It wouldn't change my early game much because I'd just be sticking it in a box till I can use it without passing out.  Kind of like when I found that beaker on Day 1 - exciting sure, but building a chem bench is a bit down the road. I could use it in the campfire, but since I don't know how to make the useful items that require it in the campfire...

I did find a quality 6 bone knife on Day 2. That was actually impactful. Really improved my chicken-chopping game. 

 

[meganoth]

Yeah, every time I see someone talk about finding steel tools early, I think, "But how do you use them??" because I can't even use iron that early without stopping to rest every other swing. It wouldn't change my early game much because I'd just be sticking it in a box till I can use it without passing out.  Kind of like when I found that beaker on Day 1 - exciting sure, but building a chem bench is a bit down the road. I could use it in the campfire, but since I don't know how to make the useful items that require it in the campfire...

I did find a quality 6 bone knife on Day 2. That was actually impactful. Really improved my chicken-chopping game. 

Iron tools are less usable with a low strength build than a high level steel axe, at least that was my impression in A19. Sure, you were fast out of air even with only 1 or 2 points in sexrex and (very important) with the coffee buff, but in the meantime you made a lot of damage, and coffee was always easy to get.

 

[RyanX]

Specific item in specifc POIs, but without guarantee maybe?

EG: more chance/probability (or no) to find any weapon parts in Messiah.

Way back in the day, you used to have to go to the Working Stiff tools to find calipers to make ammo, and it wasn't guaranteed.