PC Loving A20 except the way loot is COMPLETELY BROKEN

[DominionZA]

Acid and beakers have become extremely rare since this update. I'm on day 67, 30 minute cycles and have only happily bought off my first beaker and two bottles of acid from a trader. You might aswell say you can take up to 100+ days to build a chemistry station at this point.

 

[Krougal]

Because it is unfun? A very subjective statement. And you said "for most of us" which means you act as some kind of community speaker, right? Or made a statistically relevant poll among all players?

Just teasing.

But game designers, if you ask them, will probably tell you that players need to overcome difficulties, challenges and even "unfun" work so they get a feeling of accomplishment.

That is the basis especially of games simulating an open world. You need activities to waste time with and some of them will not be especially fun to some players. For example traveling is often an unfun activity (through known areas at least), but it is necessary as a time sink and to not give the player the ability to be instantly whereever he wants to be, making the open world obsolete.

The same is with giving out items he wants. Getting a steel pickaxe on day 1 is surely a way to make the boring task of hitting stones less unfun. But always giving it out on day 1 will not generate fun to the player since he simply takes that for granted. So giving out stuff at random is a way to make progression rewarding as you will be happy when you find an item you desperately need.

Probably I couldn't convince you though, so I would like to suggest, again, to use creative mode, but simply before playing a world write down on a piece of paper on which day you should get the beaker and on which day you should have 5 acid. On that day just give yourself those items (if you don't have them already). This is in effect exactly what you wanted, just made possible with a scrap of paper.

I agree there need to be challenges to overcome otherwise yes, you could just use CM (which is fine for when all else fails or a bug hits but is a terrible suggestion in general)

Being a game in general is a time sink, of course there are going to be time sink activities, but they should be either fun or they should be to make you appreciate when you get a way to bypass it (transport or fast travel) or make it easier (better tools/weapons/armor), etc. Being boring or grindy just for the sake of being a time sink is poor design.

I agree that just handing the player everything on day 1 is a short term fix that in the long term does nothing good. The bicycle for example is a good guaranteed item. for when it is guaranteed. The player has to do some work for it, since you need to do....what...I lose count...but like 4 or 5 missions to get the next tier. So they've done a fair amount of walking by then. The next tier missions will probably involve even more walking. Likely not found a bicycle or the parts or the money to buy them. So it's very nice to be given the choice of a bike. Is it essential? No, but it sure makes life a lot easier. Now if you want to rush a bike or better on day 1 without questing, the option is there. If you don't want the bike you've got other choices. Considering the minibike is such crap compared to the motorcycle and generally skippable it wouldn't be out of the question as a t2 or 3 reward. Now not everything needs to be handed out, maybe this wouldn't be appropriate for the last 3 vehicles and the player should have to earn them/get lucky.

If you can't choose the weapon you get as a reward, there should at least be a bias towards giving you something you have skill points in.

You can't convince me, and once again, going into creative is just a lazy suggestion. Game balance is what we're looking for. If the devs won't there's modding.

It's funny of course I just got offered a beaker as my final tier 2 quest reward on day 14. I already have one of course. That is the other thing that adds insult to injury so often, you can't find some near-essential item and then suddenly you get a ton of them dumped on you (I found the beaker really early this run). This game I rushed forge on day 1 and so now I have 3 forge recipes sitting in my box. If I actually needed the forge recipe then it would be nowhere to be found.

Oh good replies while I was typing that novel above.

Yeah, I think I made a couple glue and 1 batch of paint but that's all the use the early beaker has seen.

Agree steel tools would be useless on day1. Iron is doable. I don't feel like it has changed from earlier versions and I think you got it backwards Meganoth.

Yeah, I remember the calipers and it sucked balls when you were 100 days in and still couldn't find them.

I didn't use guns much early because of ammo scarcity. Now of course it's out of habit that I mostly beat @%$# with my club and only go for the MG when I get in a jam or just feel the need to mow down a lot of zeds in a hurry. I've got a chest full of ammo not to mention casings & tips piling up. So we go from 1 extreme to another. It is now completely viable to use guns from day 1 as your primary weapon and probably not worry about running out of ammo.

I have been lucky with the beakers and the chem bench compared to other people for sure.

 

[Mahnogard]

Yeah, I think I made a couple glue and 1 batch of paint but that's all the use the early beaker has seen.

You only need the cooking pot for both of these. Thankfully. Because I paint a lot and I've been having a duct tape drought. I chop every corpse block for bones so I can make my own.   

 

[Krougal]

You only need the cooking pot for both of these. Thankfully. Because I paint a lot and I've been having a duct tape drought. I chop every corpse block for bones so I can make my own.   

Huh? They showup under the beaker section.

Hmmm...didn't realize the chemicals don't all require the beaker. Ok, so I haven't used it yet, because early game gunpowder and antibiotics aren't something I am making.

 

[fragtzack]

Just hit lvl 54 and finally got a crucible. 

I play 33% loot and love it.

Why rush to end game..

 

[Whorhay]

Isn't the Chemstation a guaranteed result of completing seven T3 trader quests? It seems like you can get that bonus multiple times, even from the same trader. So why not just do a bunch of quests? I understand that taking the motorcycle package is mighty tempting but at best that will be worth two acid and some steel, whereas the chem station represents five acid and a beaker. Makes for a pretty clear choice to me, and like I said you can at a minimum go to other traders and quest until you get offered a Chem station for completing the T3's again.

 

[meganoth]

I agree there need to be challenges to overcome otherwise yes, you could just use CM (which is fine for when all else fails or a bug hits but is a terrible suggestion in general)

Thanks Whoray for the reminder, actually your desire to have guaranteed stuff is already reality in the game. The very overpowered trader completion quest rewards already provide everything you need in the game, you just have to choose the right one where you have an item missing. I think this is a mistake.

Being a game in general is a time sink, of course there are going to be time sink activities, but they should be either fun or they should be to make you appreciate when you get a way to bypass it (transport or fast travel) or make it easier (better tools/weapons/armor), etc. Being boring or grindy just for the sake of being a time sink is poor design.

Well, and if you find a beaker it makes it easier as well (cheaper crafting of ammo allows you to be very generous with it). Do you really deny the value of a chemstation? I just checked by the way, and the only real use for the beaker is for crafting the chem station. The second beaker that you can put into the chem station is entirely superfluous right now, the only recipe depending on it is the antibiotics and by the time you have a chem station infections should not be a problem anymore.

If you find scavenging and looting boring and grindy, why are you even playing this game?

I agree that just handing the player everything on day 1 is a short term fix that in the long term does nothing good. The bicycle for example is a good guaranteed item. for when it is guaranteed. The player has to do some work for it, since you need to do....what...I lose count...but like 4 or 5 missions to get the next tier. So they've done a fair amount of walking by then. The next tier missions will probably involve even more walking. Likely not found a bicycle or the parts or the money to buy them. So it's very nice to be given the choice of a bike. Is it essential? No, but it sure makes life a lot easier. Now if you want to rush a bike or better on day 1 without questing, the option is there. If you don't want the bike you've got other choices. Considering the minibike is such crap compared to the motorcycle and generally skippable it wouldn't be out of the question as a t2 or 3 reward. Now not everything needs to be handed out, maybe this wouldn't be appropriate for the last 3 vehicles and the player should have to earn them/get lucky.

At least in SP the INT vehicle perks and often the recipes have lost much of their value. You can just get bicycle and better vehicles handed to you for free. In A19 at least you had to give up a perk point to get a bicycle if you weren't lucky with scavenging.

If you can't choose the weapon you get as a reward, there should at least be a bias towards giving you something you have skill points in.

You can't convince me, and once again, going into creative is just a lazy suggestion. Game balance is what we're looking for. If the devs won't there's modding.

Yes. We adhere to different gaming philosophies. Practically there is no difference between a mod that gives you a guaranteed item and creative mode, subjectively a player needs the illusion he somewhow earned it even if it is inevitable in a way.

It's funny of course I just got offered a beaker as my final tier 2 quest reward on day 14. I already have one of course. That is the other thing that adds insult to injury so often, you can't find some near-essential item and then suddenly you get a ton of them dumped on you (I found the beaker really early this run). This game I rushed forge on day 1 and so now I have 3 forge recipes sitting in my box. If I actually needed the forge recipe then it would be nowhere to be found.

Why are they sitting in your box? Reading it gives you a little XP, selling them gives quite a good amount of money.

Oh good replies while I was typing that novel above.

Yeah, I think I made a couple glue and 1 batch of paint but that's all the use the early beaker has seen.

Agree steel tools would be useless on day1. Iron is doable. I don't feel like it has changed from earlier versions and I think you got it backwards Meganoth.

I was talking about early game. The steel axe might not be right for day 1, but you can keep it and use it on day 5 as well . Anyway, instead of steel tool we can just look at tier3 guns to make the argument work without coffee.

Yeah, I remember the calipers and it sucked balls when you were 100 days in and still couldn't find them.

I didn't use guns much early because of ammo scarcity. Now of course it's out of habit that I mostly beat @%$# with my club and only go for the MG when I get in a jam or just feel the need to mow down a lot of zeds in a hurry. I've got a chest full of ammo not to mention casings & tips piling up. So we go from 1 extreme to another. It is now completely viable to use guns from day 1 as your primary weapon and probably not worry about running out of ammo.

I have been lucky with the beakers and the chem bench compared to other people for sure.

 

[Krougal]

Thanks Whoray for the reminder, actually your desire to have guaranteed stuff is already reality in the game. The very overpowered trader completion quest rewards already provide everything you need in the game, you just have to choose the right one where you have an item missing. I think this is a mistake.

Well, and if you find a beaker it makes it easier as well (cheaper crafting of ammo allows you to be very generous with it). Do you really deny the value of a chemstation? I just checked by the way, and the only real use for the beaker is for crafting the chem station. The second beaker that you can put into the chem station is entirely superfluous right now, the only recipe depending on it is the antibiotics and by the time you have a chem station infections should not be a problem anymore.

If you find scavenging and looting boring and grindy, why are you even playing this game?

At least in SP the INT vehicle perks and often the recipes have lost much of their value. You can just get bicycle and better vehicles handed to you for free. In A19 at least you had to give up a perk point to get a bicycle if you weren't lucky with scavenging.

Yes. We adhere to different gaming philosophies. Practically there is no difference between a mod that gives you a guaranteed item and creative mode, subjectively a player needs the illusion he somewhow earned it even if it is inevitable in a way.

Why are they sitting in your box? Reading it gives you a little XP, selling them gives quite a good amount of money.

I was talking about early game. The steel axe might not be right for day 1, but you can keep it and use it on day 5 as well . Anyway, instead of steel tool we can just look at tier3 guns to make the argument work without coffee.

Like I tell my wife, leave the funny stuff to the people who are actually good at it

I never denied the value of the chemstation, you did. I consider it essential. 

Whoray? I think you meant Hooray!

I never said scavenging and looting was boring and grindy, I said skills and leveling is boring and grindy, including using stone age tools and weapons...what is this Afghanistan? I get tired of looking at my chests full of materials when I have nothing worthwhile to make.

I'm not a big fan of the traders at all to be honest, but they are the current meta. Their addition and turning the game into a dungeon crawl has ruined a lot of it for me. I have come to accept that this is just a different game than what it was originally and right now this is what it is. For what it is, it is pretty decent. I enjoyed the game more when there was only what you could scavenge and what you could craft (and no, I'm not interested in the mod for that, too much of the game has changed to go back).

I also spent longer on a given play through before getting bored. That is probably why I want things sooner, because honestly by the time I've made it to tier5 I'm pretty burnt out and ready to start fresh.

Creative mode, creative mode, creative mode. Stop being such a lazy thinker. Yes, the player needs that illusion along with many others, because that's all any game is, an illusion. Nothing breaches the illusion of purpose faster than using CM to give yourself @%$#. 

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

 

[meganoth]

Like I tell my wife, leave the funny stuff to the people who are actually good at it

I never denied the value of the chemstation, you did. I consider it essential.

You said "of course there are going to be time sink activities, but they should be either ..., or make it easier (better tools/weapons/armor) ". And I'm asking why the chem station does not make it easier? So you have a time sink activity called scavenging/looting that eventually makes it easier by giving you a chem station (and on top can be fun).

If by chance you don't get the chem station for a long time I don't see there any grind. You have to buy more ammo from the trader and maybe rely more on traps for your horde night defense, but that's it.

Making the chem station drop guaranteed after doing 20 quests for example just means that scavenging a chem station or the recipe becomes meaningless, you will just grind those 20 quests (and this way it will be just grind). I already see some of it in my MP game where we subconciously do quests in wait for the trader completion reward which provides the guaranteed progress. To me a boring linear progression on rails.

Whoray? I think you meant Hooray!

Whorhay is the name of a poster in this thread.

I never said scavenging and looting was boring and grindy, I said skills and leveling is boring and grindy, including using stone age tools and weapons...what is this Afghanistan? I get tired of looking at my chests full of materials when I have nothing worthwhile to make.

Sure, for some players progression feels to slow. Many of them set xp to 200% or 300% to fast forward.

I'm not a big fan of the traders at all to be honest, but they are the current meta. Their addition and turning the game into a dungeon crawl has ruined a lot of it for me. I have come to accept that this is just a different game than what it was originally and right now this is what it is. For what it is, it is pretty decent. I enjoyed the game more when there was only what you could scavenge and what you could craft (and no, I'm not interested in the mod for that, too much of the game has changed to go back).

I also spent longer on a given play through before getting bored. That is probably why I want things sooner, because honestly by the time I've made it to tier5 I'm pretty burnt out and ready to start fresh.

Creative mode, creative mode, creative mode. Stop being such a lazy thinker. Yes, the player needs that illusion along with many others, because that's all any game is, an illusion. Nothing breaches the illusion of purpose faster than using CM to give yourself @%$#. 

Well, but so does the knowledge of items you want being guaranteed finds remove the illusion of danger and scarcity and need, essential for a survival and scavenging game.

For an extreme example imagine you are in search for one specific item. If you know there is a 10% chance you find it in bags, you will open each bag with anticipation whether it is in it (like with any game of chance). If you know you will get it in the 10th bag guaranteed, you will just grind opening bags and count to 10. The gambling game changed to a grind for 10 bags.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas.

 

[nostalginator]

Update:   New save.  This is how it's going:

By Day 7 Horde Night, I've found 75 lead weights... and 38 steel-- not from wrenching anything, I legit just looted it.  I have no crucible, and I have yet to loot a recipe that requires steel.  [Second edit:]  I have also looted 6 acid.

You cannot convince me that that's not somehow fundamentally broken.  You just can't.  I'd STILL take a beaker over 38 steel because I know I'll be able to buy a crucible by the time I see one, whereas apparently I have to visit a T5 POI in a winter biome to have a chance of looting a beaker, at which point I will likely loot more than one, for reasons.

Guess I need to grind quests until I finish Tier 3, but why is the beaker even in the game if that's the easiest path to getting a chem station?  I can craft scopes out of broken glass, but not beakers??  Somebody make it make sense.

 

[BFT2020]

Update:   New save.  This is how it's going:

By Day 7 Horde Night, I've found 75 lead weights... and 38 steel-- not from wrenching anything, I legit just looted it.  I have no crucible, and I have yet to loot a recipe that requires steel.  [Second edit:]  I have also looted 6 acid.

You cannot convince me that that's not somehow fundamentally broken.  You just can't.  I'd STILL take a beaker over 38 steel because I know I'll be able to buy a crucible by the time I see one, whereas apparently I have to visit a T5 POI in a winter biome to have a chance of looting a beaker, at which point I will likely loot more than one, for reasons.

It’s not broken, just random.  Day 9 and I got a beaker.  I haven’t found a workstation schematic or a cement mixer yet which are some items I want.  I have no need of a chemistry station this early in the game.  A beaker is not a must have early in the game, just like the crucible.

 

[Krougal]

The chem station isn't a guaranteed reward by the way, I just finished T3. I do have DA 3, which I don't know if that changes anything, although I'd imagine it just gives me extra choices. I got a motorcycle package, which was kinda a let down since it didn't have the chassis.

Looking through the code, the chem station is 1 out of 14 possible items, of which 5 are presented by default, so there is a fair chance of getting it, but no guarantee.

 

[Scyris]

Or you could jiust accept that the game throws random difficulties at you. Not having a chem station is severe blow to your ammo production, but you can buy ammo and blackpowder in adequate quantities, you can manage and that will be a unique playthrough.

But not getting the cheesecake buff leading to a rage quit?? There are worse things that can happen.

Not like you even have to make ammo with how common it is, unless you just suck at the game and have to use a gun for everything. my current game i've only used guns to kill bears or direwolves, no need to use guns on ferals, I just club em. I got the cement mixer schematic real early this game but couldn't for the life of me find the workbench, game threw me a bone though, when I ranked up from t2 to t3 a workbench was one of the choices, so you bet I took it. There are certain things in 7dtd you buy as soon as you see them: workbench, chem lab to name 2. If I don't have a chem lab and one is for sale, I will do anything I can to get my hands on it. I play with no int in my games, so I am at the mercy of rngesus for what recipes I find. I just get 1 point in adv engineering which can be gotten with base intel so I can get a forge up early. Vehicle parts especially motocycle ones I also will buy if I have the dukes even if it drains me to 0.

I actually love the loot in A20, its added some needed difficulty to the game that it lacked in A19. Was far FAR to easy to get everything in A19. I like the new challenge with loot.

 

[nostalginator]

It’s not broken, just random.  Day 9 and I got a beaker.  I haven’t found a workstation schematic or a cement mixer yet which are some items I want.  I have no need of a chemistry station this early in the game.  A beaker is not a must have early in the game, just like the crucible.

It's not "just random."  It's "random, with certain probabilities adjusted way down and certain others way up."  There is no real reason why I shouldn't find and loot steel, I suppose, but there is also no real-world applicable, believable reason why beakers are gated behind an extremely low probability of finding them at all (as was found to be the case upthread), or for fishing weights to be as common as wildflowers.  I can only willingly suspend my disbelief so far.

That's not even addressing the fact that finding parts to craft the things you've put points into remains an unreasonable slog.  By the time you find enough bow parts (for example) to make a wooden bow you either already have one or have moved past the need for bows/crossbows altogether.

In any case, it seems like a lot of you have objections to my complaints that can be summed up thus:  "That's not how I play!"  I mean, good for you, I guess?  Do you imagine forcing everyone into your particular playstyle would be a desirable thing?  I suppose I could adopt a different, non-firearm-heavy playstyle if melee didn't come with a HUGE attendant risk of infection in the first few days-- which wouldn't be a problem if the chance of finding honey in stumps hadn't literally been reduced down to almost nothing; antibiotics are extremely difficult to find, and the trader cannot reliably be counted on to have even the herbal recipe, let alone actual pills.

The RNG giveth, and the RNG withholdeth, I guess, but not even the gods of Greek mythology were this capricious.

 

[nostalginator]

Not like you even have to make ammo with how common it is, unless you just suck at the game and have to use a gun for everything. my current game i've only used guns to kill bears or direwolves, no need to use guns on ferals, I just club em. I got the cement mixer schematic real early this game but couldn't for the life of me find the workbench, game threw me a bone though, when I ranked up from t2 to t3 a workbench was one of the choices, so you bet I took it. There are certain things in 7dtd you buy as soon as you see them: workbench, chem lab to name 2. If I don't have a chem lab and one is for sale, I will do anything I can to get my hands on it. I play with no int in my games, so I am at the mercy of rngesus for what recipes I find. I just get 1 point in adv engineering which can be gotten with base intel so I can get a forge up early. Vehicle parts especially motocycle ones I also will buy if I have the dukes even if it drains me to 0.

I actually love the loot in A20, its added some needed difficulty to the game that it lacked in A19. Was far FAR to easy to get everything in A19. I like the new challenge with loot.

If you're not running bears/pumas/all canines over with your motorcycle, hitting them a few times with a burning-shaft equipped baseball bat (at least), then following up with a couple stabs for bleeding damage also while they're still stunned, then I guess you just suck at the game.  Using bullets on animals?  Pffffft.

(I don't actually believe using bullets on animals is a waste, but this is how you're coming across.  Let people play how they play without "you just suck at the game" being part of your criticism, okay?)

I agree that loot was too easy in A19 but the opposite extreme is not making me have a good time, and I still think the fact that you can loot T6 items but not craft them is backwards.

 

[Krougal]

At @Scyris but what difficulty too? Hell, I'm playing with a headshot mod and on lower difficulty, not to mention I tend to use a baseball bat (I am Neegan!) as my primary until I have t6 real guns (not these bull@%$# pipeguns), so I have way more ammo than I need. I have been raising the difficulty to try and find the sweet spot. Without the headshot mod and on higher difficulty going to go through a lot more ammo with the stupid bullet sponges at higher GS.

It's still easy to get everything, except the recipes you want

 

[Scyris]

If you're not running bears/pumas/all canines over with your motorcycle, hitting them a few times with a burning-shaft equipped baseball bat (at least), then following up with a couple stabs for bleeding damage also while they're still stunned, then I guess you just suck at the game.  Using bullets on animals?  Pffffft.

(I don't actually believe using bullets on animals is a waste, but this is how you're coming across.  Let people play how they play without "you just suck at the game" being part of your criticism, okay?)

I agree that loot was too easy in A19 but the opposite extreme is not making me have a good time, and I still think the fact that you can loot T6 items but not craft them is backwards.

I actually used to do that with my vehicles etc, but it was quite inefficent, so I went back to just unloading on them with a gun. It does the job much faster.

 

[nostalginator]

I actually used to do that with my vehicles etc, but it was quite inefficent, so I went back to just unloading on them with a gun. It does the job much faster.

Oh it's extreeeeemely inefficient!  But it's fun.

 

[Laz Man]

Day 2 ... having trouble finding a hammer though lol...

 

[Boidster]

"random, with certain probabilities adjusted way down and certain others way up."

AKA "balance". These higher & lower probabilities for items have always been in the game - it's never been an equal chance for any item in the game. You just don't like the current balance and your opinion is "it's broken" and nobody can convince you otherwise. Others don't have any problem with the current balance and don't think anything is broken. You're not wrong, they're not wrong. Luckily, the game is fairly easily adjustable for anyone with a text editor and there are plenty of people here who will provide pretty detailed instructions if asked nicely.