PC Looting Progression Plan

[Roland]

Or if you are good enough with modding you could make items need themselves to be repaired.

Essentially make sure that you take out parts of a working AK47 to repair your favorite AK47. This would probably be more immmersion fitting to cobble together weapons than straight up just removing the ability to repair.

I posted the same thing but Laz said it would be problematic if you had several dupes in your backpack. Which would get eaten to make the repair. Really, just making the parts be the repair materials is the same thing. Then you could cannibalize dupes for parts in order to repair. Same thing.

But it still means that found items would be forever.  

 

[Solomon]

I'm sure it is exciting. It also isn't the rarity that many people were claiming that they would be happy with. Turns out that "I would be happy as long as there was a very very rare chance of finding a great gun" is actually "I'm loving finding the good stuff right away again". Why are you willing to have T6 gear fenced off from Day 1 but not taking it a few steps further? How do you know that there isn't someone else who will uninstall if there is zero chance at T6 gear on Day 1?

I'm sure they would answer your post with "I would be happy as long as there was a very very rare chance of finding a T6 gun"

I really am for a rare chance at good guns as long as that is paired with degradation so that whatever you find in the first week isn't a golden ticket to the rest of the game. You talk about the excitement of getting that Blue Steel Mace on day 2 but then fail to mention the pointlessness of opening chests and getting brown, orange, yellow, and green Steel Maces, Baseball bats, and wooden clubs for days 3 on. And when I say rare chance I mean you might get a yellow iron pickaxe from a car during the first week once every five play throughs. Super rare.  Not 4%.

4% was vomiting rarity and based on the number of rant threads about vomiting, nobody felt 4% was particularly rare at all...

Honestly theres nothing else, before today this was the only loot mod made. Now we have @Boidster's loot lottery mod too so people could switch if they want.

All i wanted is a mod what makes the looting randomised, so i dont swim in the same stone gear for ages. I think im gonna go and edit that mod around so it progresses like 4%, 3%, 1.5%, 0,5% or find out just which exact setting controls quality tiers and manipulate that.

Also on a sidenot due to how this game works theres no such thing as "rare find". In a game like Warframe an item drop with 4% chance is almost impossible to get but here you can go as low as 0.1% and it would still mean that you run a fairly good chance of getting an item from that rarity group because of the number of lootable containers. At 4% you need to find 25 containers to reach the mathematical 100% chance, at 0.01% you need 100 containers but thats like 10 days.

 

[Kalen]

At 4% you need to find 25 containers to reach the mathematical 100% chance, at 0.01% you need 100 containers but thats like 10 days.

Uh oh.... don't say things like that to a math guy!

 

[Solomon]

Uh oh.... don't say things like that to a math guy!

I know my math is kind of.....busted but you get what i mean even if it would make my math teacher commit sudoku.

I posted the same thing but Laz said it would be problematic if you had several dupes in your backpack. Which would get eaten to make the repair. Really, just making the parts be the repair materials is the same thing. Then you could cannibalize dupes for parts in order to repair. Same thing.

But it still means that found items would be forever.  

Yeah i figured you would need to find a way to exclude the weapon from eating itself to repair itself and which one to use up for the repair.

How does reforging sound?

We could make a forge recipe what uses up 2 Pistols to make a Pistol. This way the only issue left is the T6 item quality but we could probably just cut that quality out and replace it with an identical pistol what has these stats at base but its untiered like the nailgun (or just make all items untiered and let the perks handle the stats).

 

[Boidster]

I posted the same thing but Laz said it would be problematic if you had several dupes in your backpack. Which would get eaten to make the repair. Really, just making the parts be the repair materials is the same thing. Then you could cannibalize dupes for parts in order to repair. Same thing.

But it still means that found items would be forever.  

So I got it to work, but of course Laz is correct. It takes the 1st similar item in your backpack and uses that. I mean, probably that wouldn't be a huge deal in most cases, 'cause you'd be clicking Repair on your best item so who cares which one is used to repair it?

But if you've got two AKs configured for different purposes and want to use a 3rd AK to repair one of them...dangerous.

Also on a sidenot due to how this game works theres no such thing as "rare find". In a game like Warframe an item drop with 4% chance is almost impossible to get but here you can go as low as 0.1% and it would still mean that you run a fairly good chance of getting an item from that rarity group because of the number of lootable containers. At 4% you need to find 25 containers to reach the mathematical 100% chance, at 0.01% you need 100 containers but thats like 10 days.

I cannot conceive of the statistical framework that Warframe uses where "4% chance" is more rare than "0.1% chance", but set that aside. My only comment here is that you should remember that "0.04" in the loot probability tables does not, in almost any case, actually mean a 4% chance. When you open a container there are loot groups within loot groups within loot groups and all of them have probability numbers assigned that must be worked through step by step to get the correct percentage.

That mod setting all loot probability tables to 0.04 only makes each tier equally likely regardless of your gamestage. It does not mean that each tier has a 4% chance of popping up. It might be 20% or it might be 0.002% - you just don't know until you inspect the exact container you are opening. Like I did with that Shotgun Messiah Crate exercise. It is a PITA, but I'm workin' on a tool that will automate it for me.

 

[Laz Man]

You'd think, but your brain seems to erase all that time you happily used the thing and links together all the times you had to switch mods over and pretty soon you just feel like that's all you remember doing. It's kind of like when your spouse doesn't remember all the times you did the dishes and only seems to notice when you left that dish in the sink. My go to excuse is "I'm letting it soak first!"

So your saying Madmole is like your wife? ...

 

[Laz Man]

Just looking at it a different way but maybe its possible to get degradation back by getting rid of field repairs all together and replacing it with a pseduo repair/combine feature at the work bench.

Recipe: weapon + parts = random durability weapon back to player.

Perks can be created to modify the amount of durability you get back.

Perk lvl1 - 50 to 100 durability

Lvl2 - 100 to 150 durability

Lvl3 - 150 to 200 durability 

 

[Kalen]

Just looking at it a different way but maybe its possible to get degradation back by getting rid of field repairs all together and replacing it with a pseduo repair/combine feature at the work bench.

Recipe: weapon + parts = random durability weapon back to player.

Perks can be created to modify the amount of durability you get back.

Perk lvl1 - 50 to 100 durability

Lvl2 - 100 to 150 durability

Lvl3 - 150 to 200 durability 

I thought about doing that.... you'd use a crafting recipe, right?   The problem I couldn't get around was that the new item would have a quality equal to your crafting skill and not based on the items original quality.   There doesn't seem to be a way to force an item to craft at a specific quality.

 

[Maxley]

I didn’t realize this pole existed until now. I’m not a fan of the current system but I do agree with the overall plan of game staging the loot. I see now that this isn’t a final version or even particularly close to it so I’m happy to wait and see what the Fun Pimps do. Based on what Roland said above, about having different biomes as well as specific POI’s affecting game stage as well as having sealed shipping containers have better or worse loot depending on the POI they inhabit, I feel much better about the future of loot.

 

[Marrionetta]

This progression makes perfect sense in ARK. why? because we are in an a simulation of sorts that's inherently designed to be empty, full of resources. If you wanna shot gun, you're gonna have to start with a camp fire and learn how to advance and thrive as you go. 

it doesn't make sense here. 

The world was already lived in. There are already weapons everywhere, especially considering the likelihood of an American home having at least one gun stashed somewhere in it. It's dumb how I can't physically see a pistol or a shot gun until I hit a certain level. In a survival game where everything counts, that's just straight up @%$#ed. Survival games don't have the luxury of being viewed as RPGs. The whole point of survival is you're being tossed into the frying pan and its your job to get good and make the best of it. but if an almighty game algorithm is literally throttling that ability then it's akin to basically God snapping his fingers and replacing guns in vaults with @%$# literally no one pre-apoc would have unless they're some kinda collector. which would still make little sense for various reasons. 

My problem with it is that no matter what, it doesn't make sense. 

I'd much rather play ARK then seven days cause Ark does the RPG progression in a way that makes perfect sense. it's far easier to get immersed in Ark than it is in 7 Days. 

Maybe to you immersion is a non issue but plenty of us like to lose ourselves in a good book, a great movie series, TV series and finally, a good game. but if a game goes out of its way to break that immersion, then it's not good. it's Annoying. 

7 days was incredibly awesome before the loot drought but now all I can think of is how little sense these things make. 

No post apoc story in any media has to go thru a stone or primitive age. Cause that's @%$#ed. there's always an axe somewhere around, there's always a gun somewhere near by, there's always a car. the car not working makes sense. there are plenty of reasons it wouldn't work. but the fact that you can't find a single gun in any house till you reach a certain level? 0 sense. 

you don't have to agree with me, that's just how I feel. I can only turn off my brain so much. logic is difficult for me to ignore no matter how hard I try. So to me, my enjoyment in any game, be it WWE, be it a looter shooter, whatever, hinges on how immersive it is. The more things make sense, the happier I am. Otherwise it's stupid and silly. 

 

[JCrook1028]

No post apoc story in any media has to go thru a stone or primitive age.

The Walking Dead - They ride horses cause the gas is mostly bad. Cars only lasted a few years and that was a few years too long just to make the show more fast paced. They use bows and arrows cause the ammo is mostly depleted. Spears and other hand melee weapons while not stone but still primitive and handcrafted.

 

[Hollowprime]

Problem1: High end tools and weapons were abundant in A18.

Problem2: There should be at least a minimum of items available in each house.

Solution: Make zombies level be respective to the loot around them, not the other way around. Have house loot containers have a minimum set of certain items but still bound them to zombie level difficulty.

Balancing game loot can be really hard on the developers, but it needs to be both realistic and fun to play with. Currently the loot table is balanced but it lacks realism.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

I already said my opinion on this a dozen times in different threads already, but since i have voted "other":

I like the progression in comparison to pure random loot without any restriction.

But i dislike "hardcoded" gates and with the current progression system those gate is your gamestage.

There should be a risk VS reward the player can choose as he wishes. The problem with pre-A18 was, there was no risk. The problem in A19 is, there is no reward.

The gamestage offsets for POIs and loot and maybe the event system hopefully coming with A20 should solve this and make the current "hardcoded" lootbrake ... ah, i mean lootprogression obsolete.

Progression is then controled by the player and what difficulty he wants to take. A brave player may attack the duke of navez's castle on day 1 and find m60s there instantly. Another player may think this is to dangerous and takes slower progression, doing easy pois with low quality loot first and then improve step by step.

 

[Xtrakicking]

The Walking Dead - They ride horses cause the gas is mostly bad. Cars only lasted a few years and that was a few years too long just to make the show more fast paced. They use bows and arrows cause the ammo is mostly depleted. Spears and other hand melee weapons while not stone but still primitive and handcrafted.

I bet you they didn't find those horses, spears and bows in gun stores. All the primitive stuff they have is manmade; they even have blacksmiths.

 

[JCrook1028]

I bet you they didn't find those horses, spears and bows in gun stores. All the primitive stuff they have is manmade; they even have blacksmiths.

Where they found them really doesn't matter in the context of the post I was responding to.....

Context matters, try to keep up.

22 hours ago, Marrionetta said:
No post apoc story in any media has to go thru a stone or primitive age.

 

[Xtrakicking]

Where they found them really doesn't matter in the context of the post I was responding to.....

Context matters, try to keep up.

No post apoc story in any media has to go thru a stone or primitive age.

Emh.. Actually, that is exactly the context, the discussion and the main reason why this thread was made in the first place. Not sure if you read through his whole post, but many people, like the guy you responded to, are not happy with the loot because it forces you to stay in primitive stage no matter where you go or what you loot:

The world was already lived in. There are already weapons everywhere, especially considering the likelihood of an American home having at least one gun stashed somewhere in it.

but if an almighty game algorithm is literally throttling that ability then it's akin to basically God snapping his fingers and replacing guns in vaults with @%$# literally no one pre-apoc would have unless they're some kinda collector.

but the fact that you can't find a single gun in any house till you reach a certain level? 0 sense. 

So yes, where the items are found is precisely what we're talking about here. The primitve tools used in The Walking Dead are manmade, they didn't exactly find them in the prison, nor Negan's secret vault either.

 

[JCrook1028]

No post apoc story in any media has to go thru a stone or primitive age.

Emh.. Actually, that is exactly the context, the discussion and the main reason why this thread was made in the first place. Not sure if you read through his whole post, but many people, like the guy you responded to, are not happy with the loot because it forces you to stay in primitive stage no matter where you go or what you loot:

...... Again, for those that cannot comprehend the written word. My response was NOT to whether or not we STAY in a primitive stage in this game or not. That ius totally irrelevant to my post. My post was in response to the TWICE now quoted comment that there are (3rd time quoting)

"No post apoc story in any media has to go thru a stone or primitive age."

Yes, there ARE apoc stories where people have to go thru a primitive age. Period. Undeniable. If you honestly can't comprehend in what context I was responding now frankly it shows you have no reading comprehension at all.

"So yes, where the items are found is precisely what we're talking about here. The primitve tools used in The Walking Dead are manmade, they didn't exactly find them in the prison, nor Negan's secret vault either. "

Again. NOT what I was referring to at all and totally irrelevant to my comment. See above. What you are talking about IS relevant to the OP of the thread but NOT to the specific post I was responding to.

 

[Xtrakicking]

...... Again, for those that cannot comprehend the written word. My response was NOT to whether or not we STAY in a primitive stage in this game or not. That ius totally irrelevant to my post. My post was in response to the TWICE now quoted comment that there are (3rd time quoting)

"No post apoc story in any media has to go thru a stone or primitive age."

Yes, there ARE apoc stories where people have to go thru a primitive age. Period. Undeniable. If you honestly can't comprehend in what context I was responding now frankly it shows you have no reading comprehension at all.

"So yes, where the items are found is precisely what we're talking about here. The primitve tools used in The Walking Dead are manmade, they didn't exactly find them in the prison, nor Negan's secret vault either. "

Again. NOT what I was referring to at all and totally irrelevant to my comment. See above. What you are talking about IS relevant to the OP of the thread but NOT to the specific post I was responding to.

Ah, I see, so you decided to completely ignore every other thing that guy wrote and cherrypicked a single line that you oh so smartly and easily rebutted. Why should you care about the rest of the post and the actual context to which that guy made that argument, right?

I should try that some time.

 

[Kalen]

The Walking Dead - They ride horses cause the gas is mostly bad. Cars only lasted a few years and that was a few years too long just to make the show more fast paced. They use bows and arrows cause the ammo is mostly depleted. Spears and other hand melee weapons while not stone but still primitive and handcrafted.

This is actually a terrible example.... because they start with modern gear and over time move to using primitive items because their gear breaks down.   In 7 days (and most games) its the opposite, you start low tech and progress to high tech.  Personally, I would love it if 7 days mirrors TWDs equipment usage and you start with high quality stuff that degrades over time.... so you have to learn how to adapt with low tech gear.   But, obviously, that's not going to happen.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Emh.. Actually, that is exactly the context, the discussion and the main reason why this thread was made in the first place. Not sure if you read through his whole post, but many people, like the guy you responded to, are not happy with the loot because it forces you to stay in primitive stage no matter where you go or what you loot:

Yeah, that's about the progression system, as already the threat title says.

So yes, where the items are found is precisely what we're talking about here. The primitve tools used in The Walking Dead are manmade, they didn't exactly find them in the prison, nor Negan's secret vault either.

In the overall context, people complain about not being able to find fire arms early. Right... progression system enforces that.

But in the context of the walking dead example you should also not find primitive tools in any safes or boxes, because they are REQUIRED to be handmade.

Dunno if it occured in this thread, but in many other threads people also complain about that there ARE primitive tools in loot boxes.

Removing primitive tools from all loot tables would solve that, but of course not that you still can't find fire arms early.

That leads me to another idea. Primitive tools should not be able to damage e.g. safes. So you reqiure to find a iron tool first OR lockpicks to open a safe. E.g primitive tools don't do any damage to any block that has more than 2000hp. Would be even more realisitc. However still wont overcome that you can't find any firearms early, also not in safes.

Another idea: The block's HP you are hitting affects the durability of your tool. So you may use a iron pickaxe to open the small 2500hp safes relatively comfortable, but hitting a big 7500hp safe, will break your iron tool after few hits. So you require a huge amount of repair kits (but still possible to do) or you wait until you have steel tools, which have far loss durability loss on high-hp blocks.

So i hope you understand: The basic idea is to make it (almost) impossible to even open safes that early. (But still not a solution to crates or weapon bags, where bags are not sealed and can be considered to be left from other survivors, so still may contain primitive tools for a reason).