PC So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[Zombull]

Yeah it's pretty much just a matter of sacrificing any semblance of realism for the sake of game theory.

I'd say the crates themselves are a big part of the problem. Someone concerned with "realism" might ask why there's a crate with just a couple of items in it to begin with. Wouldn't a "real" unopened hardware shipping crate be packed with two dozen or so iron picks, not just one? What would such a find do to game balance?

So ditch the crates? Or at least ditch the unopened crates. How long did people try to survive the apocalypse? They looted everything in sight.

Maybe the player inventory is the problem. I can carry 45 items, any combination of heavy iron tools, guns, armor, brass trophies and doorknobs. What if I could carry far less? Backpack loaded with small items like ammo and scrap resources. Larger items can be carried in hands or maybe one or two strapped to my belt, but at the cost of making me more clumsy.

More "realistic". Also maybe more frustrating and frankly just not the kind of game TFP is aiming to make.

 

[Solomon]

Yes, and while that fact is true I still could deliberately build an iron axe that is objectively worse than a good stone axe (in reality). Wanna bet? What I can do deliberately could be done by some idiot without knowledge per chance.

I mean yeah sure, expect as you already said in reality no matter how bad your iron pick will be it will be still miles better than whatever stone axe you could make.

I mean by default taking a wooden cub and putting a rebar bar into it is probably still better than whatever i would make from a piece of stone.

 

[Reckis]

The real problem here is that everyone is taking this system too literally. This a video game that is making a system whereby a player progresses thru a series of technology levels in an effort to survive in a harsh world.

Would you feel better about the progression if "stone" was "Scrap" or "Makeshift" and the stats were the same?

The fact of the matter is that these are just labels, and over all the system is pretty balanced, not perfect by any means, but playable.

Stop getting hung up on the semantics and look at the system.

 

[Roland]

Not at all.... the name is irrelevant to me.   The fact is that a Tier 2 item should be an upgrade to a Tier 1 item.  In the current system that isn't always the case.  In fact, in my experience, the majority of the time the first Tier 2 item you find isn't better than the current Tier 1 item you are using.

I am leery of saying that Tier 2 should always be better than Tier 1. There has to be great items and garbage items and most of it should be garbage. If the garbage is shaped like an iron pickaxe it doesn’t change the fact that it is garbage. The player shouldn’t come to expect that they are going to find loot that is better than the loot they have. If the iron pickaxe is worse than your primitive stone axe then it probably means it was rusted through and the handle was broke. Sorry if the icon doesn’t reflect that. The thing is there is still a rare chance to find an iron pickaxe before you find better primitive stone axe and later you can go places that will likely have them early. 

 

[Boidster]

Not at all.... the name is irrelevant to me.   The fact is that a Tier 2 item should be an upgrade to a Tier 1 item.  In the current system that isn't always the case.  In fact, in my experience, the majority of the time the first Tier 2 item you find isn't better than the current Tier 1 item you are using.

I absolutely believe you that in your case the name is irrelevant. I do not think that is true for most, but set that aside.

I don't quite have the same mental model as Roland - that most stuff should be garbage and a few things should be great - just more that exceptional examples of Material X can be superior to mundane examples of Material Y. Maybe I'm saying the same thing, but basing it more in the dreaded 'realism'. In any case, I can accept quite easily that an artisan-level iron axe could be superior in all ways except durability (which I believe the game is pretty good about when moving up a tier) to an amateur steel axe. So I don't have any issues with Q5-6 of a lower tier being comparable to Q1-2 of a higher tier, forcing the character to make choices.

However with mods being so useful and adding base damage, there is an incentive structure now where it's maybe more likely than we'd like for a player to keep a Q5 iron over a Q1 steel even if the steel item has better stats. Because you just don't want to give up 3 or 4 mods to get 5 points in damage. I wonder if tying mod slots more to the tier would help with that. I have not thought this through very much, so please keep flames set to "1st degree burn":

Tier 0/Primitive: no mods on any items

Tier 1/Iron: no mods on Q1, 1 mod on Q2-5, 2 mods on Q6

Tier 2/Steel: 1 mod on Q1-2, 2 mods on Q3-5, 3 mods on Q6

Tier 3/Advanced: 1 mod on Q1, 2 mods on Q2-4, 3 mods on Q5, 4 mods on Q6

Between tiers the base stats would still overlap much like they do now, so a Q6 iron (with 2 mod slots) still has a good possibility to be better than a Q1/2 steel (only 1 mod slot), even if the steel rolls up decent base stats.

 

[Kalen]

I am leery of saying that Tier 2 should always be better than Tier 1. There has to be great items and garbage items and most of it should be garbage. If the garbage is shaped like an iron pickaxe it doesn’t change the fact that it is garbage. The player shouldn’t come to expect that they are going to find loot that is better than the loot they have. If the iron pickaxe is worse than your primitive stone axe then it probably means it was rusted through and the handle was broke. Sorry if the icon doesn’t reflect that. The thing is there is still a rare chance to find an iron pickaxe before you find better primitive stone axe and later you can go places that will likely have them early. 

Respectfully disagree.... when I see that first iron pickaxe, I want to be excited because it's going to be an upgrade.   Currently I just think of it as iron to be smelted because it rarely is better.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'd rather the fact that its a "rusted broken handled pickaxe" was reflected in its damage value instead of its quality.   That would require damage to have an impact on item effectiveness.... but alas, it doesn't.

I wonder if tying mod slots more to the tier would help with that. I have not thought this through very much, so please keep flames set to "1st degree burn":

I like this idea.... removing the possibility of mods from primitive items would certainly reduce their value and make tier 1 items much more valuable in relation.

 

[meganoth]

I mean yeah sure, expect as you already said in reality no matter how bad your iron pick will be it will be still miles better than whatever stone axe you could make.

Eh, what? You really really misunderstood what I was saying.

I said the material is inherently better, it has a lot more potential. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be an iron axe that is worse than a stone axe. Yes, in reality.

I mean by default taking a wooden cub and putting a rebar bar into it is probably still better than whatever i would make from a piece of stone.

In every case? No. Maybe you were so bad at crafting that the rebar jumps off the handle every second hit. While the high quality stone axe is firmly stuck to the handle.

 

[alanea]

loot simply have  to drop mostly trash or  ... nothing at all to  theres  now ay around unless we want " finish game"  with full tier 5-6 set  by day  30  with no motivation to loot anything else like in 17/18

 

[KiaDragon]

Another "realism" thread complaining they arent fully kitted out on day 1.. Move along everyone.

No that is not what was expressed.  What was expressed was that loot is BLAND AND UNIFORM.  I'll repeat the point:  In a crafting, looting, building game they have destroyed the looting pillar.

I have nearly 3000 hours in this game.  It now bores me to death with it's GRINDY, GRINDY, GRINDY bull@%$*#!.  It's like WOW all over again.

 

[Roland]

destroyed the looting pillar

Started changing the looting pillar for the better and not finished yet.

 

[Solomon]

Started changing the looting pillar for the better and not finished yet.

No, it changed to a different but not better one.

We are transitioning to the typical mmorpg type of loot system, harder maps for better rewards, enforced tiers, item limitations. Its not better but just different, if you are into games like PoE you might like it but for sandbox crafter/looter/builder games its just terrible.

 

[Roland]

You probably weren’t around during A18 when everyone was complaining about guns galore from the first day and the completely diminished crafting pillar of the game. Rhyming looter and shooter was the big craze....

The current path, once completed, will ensure a strong looting pillar and a strong crafting pillar. It will be a huge improvement over A18 and A19 once it is done.  That doesn’t mean you will like it of course. But design wise it will be objectively better because it will support so many more play styles. 
 

You want a crafting game? Keep to the forest and loot easy t1 POIs and remnants and you’ll craft better than what you can find which is something the crafters want. 
 

You want a looter shooter? Head to the desert and wasteland and higher tier POIs right away and you’ll get the exciting loot you want combined with plenty of shooting. 
 

You want to play the trading game? Go on quests and perk into getting more and better rewards with better stuff. Earn dukes and progress to see more of each trader’s secret stash. 
 

You want something in between? Mix it up and go wherever your whim decides. 
 

Sounds like a good fit for open world sandbox survival to me. Choices, freedom, risk and reward correlation. 
 

No loot system ever in the past in the history of this game was location based or matched to an equal level of risk. A20 will be the first time you finally won’t just get the same loot everywhere you go. So, yeah, VAST improvement. 

 

[Roland]

We are transitioning to the typical mmorpg type of loot system, harder maps for better rewards, enforced tiers, item limitations. Its not better but just different, if you are into games like PoE you might like it but for sandbox crafter/looter/builder games its just terrible.

You are so wrong on every count:

1) Harder maps for better rewards

This will never be true for 7 Days to Die. There is one map that is open world. There are no zone maps that you fast travel to with your party that are rated for difficulty or player level. One map with location based difficulty and correlating loot. That is way different than the mmorpg narrative you are trying to connect. It’s like saying the old hub city was so like mmorpgs. It wasn’t. 
 

2)Enforced tiers

There are no enforced tiers. The player can use any tier and any quality from Day One. No weapon is ever grayed out and no message is ever displayed that a weapon you want to equip is outside your class or too powerful for your current level. 
 

Even the current “enforced” primItive stage isn’t really because you can use the trader to bypass for now and later you can choose to explore places that will have better treasure. 
 

Also, unless things have changed, 7 Days still uses leveled probabilities and not strict leveled loot. In other words the loot tables don’t change as you progress, the probability of finding certain loot changes so there actually is a very rare chance of finding something “good” during the primitive stage. 
 

3) Item Limitations

Never been the case and never will be the case. Players can use any item in the game without limitation. This is just downright fake news. Now, players ARE limited in crafting items until they get the recipe and the workstation. But they could have that item be handed to them, or buy it from a trader, or find it in loot and use it all they want— (forever since item degradation is off the table)

So...with no disrespect to mmorpgs this game really is nothing like them unless of course you think that 8 supported players counts as “massively multiplayer”....

 

[Solomon]

1) Harder maps for better rewards

This will never be true for 7 Days to Die. There is one map that is open world. There are no zone maps that you fast travel to with your party that are rated for difficulty or player level. One map with location based difficulty and correlating loot. That is way different than the mmorpg narrative you are trying to connect. It’s like saying the old hub city was so like mmorpgs. It wasn’t. 

1) Harder Pois for better rewards

This will be true for 7 Days to Die. There is one map that is open world and there are Pois that you travel to with your party that are rated for difficulty or player level. One POI with location based difficulty and correlating loot.

This is the plan for the next phase of loot rebalance what makes the dungeon style pois one step further by creating harder versions what offer more and better loot if the players tackle the challange.

2)Enforced tiers

There are no enforced tiers. The player can use any tier and any quality from Day One. No weapon is ever grayed out and no message is ever displayed that a weapon you want to equip is outside your class or too powerful for your current level. 
 

Even the current “enforced” primItive stage isn’t really because you can use the trader to bypass for now and later you can choose to explore places that will have better treasure. 
 

Also, unless things have changed, 7 Days still uses leveled probabilities and not strict leveled loot. In other words the loot tables don’t change as you progress, the probability of finding certain loot changes so there actually is a very rare chance of finding something “good” during the primitive stage. 

Except that its already in the plans to rebalance the traders so they respect the gamestage and reward loot accordingly.

The tiers are lightly enforced now as you can use anything and craft anything but nothing will spawn to help you get them easier before the necesseary gamestage raise/perk usage.

Also very rare chance of 1% of a drop per boxes is statistically 0.

3) Item Limitations

Never been the case and never will be the case. Players can use any item in the game without limitation. This is just downright fake news. Now, players ARE limited in crafting items until they get the recipe and the workstation. But they could have that item be handed to them, or buy it from a trader, or find it in loot and use it all they want— (forever since item degradation is off the table)

Except as said upper that the buying from trader and finding in loot is already crossed out. Getting them handed requies a player to go with the "intended" way what is to level up the gamestage or spec into perks.

This might be a slippery slope on my side but i think with each change going forward for this dungeon game style of balancing its only a matter of time before we actually have to invest perk points into specific perks if we want to use certain equipment.

 

[Roland]

1) Harder Pois for better rewards

This will be true for 7 Days to Die. There is one map that is open world and there are Pois that you travel to with your party that are rated for difficulty or player level. One POI with location based difficulty and correlating loot.

This is the plan for the next phase of loot rebalance what makes the dungeon style pois one step further by creating harder versions what offer more and better loot if the players tackle the challange.

Exactly. It’s nothing like how mmorpgs work. Locations of variable difficulty that anyone can explore no matter their level is much different than selectable maps of variable difficulty that are often locked until you reach the qualifying level.  You would expect areas of greater infestation in a post apocalyptic world. Once they implement this the Shotgun Messiah crates you get from the store will have better stuff than the Shotgun Messiah crates you found in the closet of a house. You can choose to loot the house or the store. The only problem will be that the game won’t protect the player by locking them out of the store until they are level such and such. So we will get rants posted by people who thought they could explore the Shotgun Messiah store naked on day one using their stone axe as a weapon because “if the game let me go in it should be possible to beat”....

Except that its already in the plans to rebalance the traders so they respect the gamestage and reward loot accordingly.

Yes, but as I mentioned, when that happens you will also be able to choose to go loot in the wasteland for those things you crave if you wish to gain items beyond your current gamestage. Stating the nerf without the compensating change that maintains the player’s ability to still have access to items beyond their current state is disingenuous. There’s more to the plans than you are stating. 

Except as said upper that the buying from trader and finding in loot is already crossed out.

Already crossed out? No. I just played b180 last night and there are things available to buy way beyond my current gamestage. It’s possible that they may implement the trader nerf before they implement location based difficulty but so far they have not. Even if they do, it will just be temporary and what we signed up for when we chose to play a game that is developing by iterations. 

 

[Roland]

@Solomon I have no beef with you hating the current state of the game. I get why you do and you have the right to complain about it. I’m not arguing for the current progression remaining as the final version nor am I defending it as a good implementation. 
 

My goal is for people to understand that we are only midway through an overall change that will be an improvement for solid reasons I’ve already outlined. I also want to debunk inaccurate speculations about the plans that are nothing like the actual plans that have been shared. 

 

[alanea]

No that is not what was expressed.  What was expressed was that loot is BLAND AND UNIFORM.  I'll repeat the point:  In a crafting, looting, building game they have destroyed the looting pillar.

I have nearly 3000 hours in this game.  It now bores me to death with it's GRINDY, GRINDY, GRINDY bull@%$*#!.  It's like WOW all over again.

are you triggeed by the fact you cant anymore nerdpole  to shotgun messiah factory (almost every poi can be cheesed and looted avoiding 90% zombies so difficulty of poi doesnt matter for this) and leavy with tier 4-6   top tier guns at day  1 ?

but leave  with high tier  stone tools tier 1  low quality guns that  still mean progress for you at  day  1 ?

No, it changed to a different but not better one.

We are transitioning to the typical mmorpg type of loot system, harder maps for better rewards, enforced tiers, item limitations. Its not better but just different, if you are into games like PoE you might like it but for sandbox crafter/looter/builder games its just terrible.

except difficulty means nothing thea re not really easy ad hard dungeons  even factories of waterworks will be full of  slow zombies on  low gamestage  and even if it was filled by ferals from day  1 theres no way to stop you from shooting zombies for places  they cant reach .. or straight  skiping them in game where you can destroy / place block everywhere

so again no matter what  "poi based loot"   always  lead to  max gear  on early days -... whats point of stone   iron   low quality  or even most guns  if you could loot  t5-6  auto shotgun on day  1

1) Harder maps for better rewards

This will never be true for 7 Days to Die. There is one map that is open world. There are no zone maps that you fast travel to with your party that are rated for difficulty or player level. One map with location based difficulty and correlating loot. That is way different than the mmorpg narrative you are trying to connect. It’s like saying the old hub city was so like mmorpgs. It wasn’t.

well  there could be some bonus ....  for example every loot   in desert could have higher " gamestage"  or amount of items compared to lets say forest   ... and wasteland could be even better .. to reward people  for looting in more dangerous territory .. as far  as iam  aware thats not how it works now ....  gunsafe in wasteland shotgun messiah is same as  gunsafe in ruins  inside small city  in forest  biome guarded by one slow zombie

1) Harder Pois for better rewards

This will be true for 7 Days to Die. There is one map that is open world and there are Pois that you travel to with your party that are rated for difficulty or player level. One POI with location based difficulty and correlating loot.

This is the plan for the next phase of loot rebalance what makes the dungeon style pois one step further by creating harder versions what offer more and better loot if the players tackle the challange.

Except that its already in the plans to rebalance the traders so they respect the gamestage and reward loot accordingly.

The tiers are lightly enforced now as you can use anything and craft anything but nothing will spawn to help you get them easier before the necesseary gamestage raise/perk usage.

Also very rare chance of 1% of a drop per boxes is statistically 0.

Except as said upper that the buying from trader and finding in loot is already crossed out. Getting them handed requies a player to go with the "intended" way what is to level up the gamestage or spec into perks.

not rly  youd efinitely dind better  stuff than youc an craft    sure you can rush  some item to craft t4  very early .. but advanced weapons need recipes ... and tools / guns  still need "parts"  forcing you to loot

traders definitely respect gamestage already  they start with t1-3  pistols  hunting rifles etc slowly moving to hidger  quality and adding low quality advanced guns   you wont see tier 5 desert vulture  at trader in early gamestages even focusing on trader perks

loot crawl poi  is a problem ..  they need to give up on idea of loot rooms and spread loot over poi instead ...as most people know where is lot in most poi and go straight after it and if they dont they just check roof .... its not dungeon crawl if you have all loot 1 wood block from entrance amd difficulty doesnt exist  if you can loot it withou killing anyone

Yes, but as I mentioned, when that happens you will also be able to choose to go loot in the wasteland for those things you crave if you wish to gain items beyond your current gamestage. Stating the nerf without the compensating change that maintains the player’s ability to still have access to items beyond their current state is disingenuous. There’s more to the plans than you are stating. 

Already crossed out? No. I just played b180 last night and there are things available to buy way beyond my current gamestage. It’s possible that they may implement the trader nerf before they implement location based difficulty but so far they have not. Even if they do, it will just be temporary and what we signed up for when we chose to play a game that is developing by iterations. 

i dont think there is system that takes loot location into account at all but yeah boost to gamestage based on biome would be best solution

trader offer definitelys cale with gamestage as well ... it ma not fit perfect and some things are strange(you can  get crucible / tier6 solars  before day  20 in secret stash ) but apart from some minor changes .. its fine to have sometimes at trader  stuff above your loot   its not like they offered  quality 5  top tier guns  in early game

 

[Roland]

well  there could be some bonus ....  for example every loot   in desert could have higher " gamestage"  or amount of items compared to lets say forest   ... and wasteland could be even better .. to reward people  for looting in more dangerous territory .. as far  as iam  aware thats not how it works now ....  gunsafe in wasteland shotgun messiah is same as  gunsafe in ruins  inside small city  in forest  biome guarded by one slow zombie

That’s the exact plan. Gamestage bonuses to biomes and POI’s will increase the loot and the enemy threats in those places. You are correct that it is not yet implemented. 
 

In addition, the idea of making the final treasure box impenetrable and requiring a from somewhere else in the POI seems to be gaining some traction in team discussions.  It seems to be the least disruptive way to prevent the quick smash and grab nerdpole to the loot room without having to edit all the existing POIs. We’ll have to see if something like that happens. 

 

[GrifterMan]

Do we have to hash over this stuff EVERY major release folks?

The Fun Pimps are trying very hard to find a good play balance. If it was easy, they would have been finished long ago.

I don't agree with some of the choices TFP have made over the years, but in most ways that is irrelevant. Someone who has over a 1000 hours in 7DTD is REALLY pushing the edges of what a single game can hope to offer as a challenge, regardless of genre and practically any other metric.

Yes, the game is still a work-in-progress. This "it hasn't gone Gold yet" angst that IMO simmers just below the surface of many threads here isn't serving any of us sticking around for the long haul. It's like some folks will always hold the Pimps in contempt for their "inability" to just finish the game. Just because the industry has set a precedent on releases doesn't mean you shouldn't challenge convention. Perhaps some of us who have and continue to gorge themselves on 7DTD just need to take a break from it, maybe a long one. Find some other games or entertainment?

We all care about the status and future of 7DTD or we wouldn't be here. Our community feedback is vital to the Pimps for sure. I am not ragging on watzip, but more a general feeling that longtime players aren't willing to give the Pimps any more development "rope".

I'd like to see more board emphasis on Constructive and less on Criticism.

 

[RipClaw]

You want a crafting game? Keep to the forest and loot easy t1 POIs and remnants and you’ll craft better than what you can find which is something the crafters want. 

That's pretty much my play style. But I mix it up with quests from the trader. Without these quests I would probably explore the map much less as I am not really interested in looting.
I look forward to it when crafting and looting no longer interfere with each other. Then everyone can follow his own play style.