PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[falloutcloud]

but adding things for the end game will help with the life of the game, no one complained about stuff degrading before, cause you could always combine parts to make your weapon/tool/armor better as it got weaker from use, i do miss that, it made it so worth while to keep all those parts, where as now im sitting on over 100 motor tool parts and nothing to do with them cause i got a level 6 impact wrench, an auger and chainsaw, so this discussion also helps with that stuff too

With having to constantly make new weapons, tools, armor, and vehicles you should be able to scrap anything completely worn out for more parts. It makes sense from a realistic point of view and makes it easier to replace broken items.

 

[Phoenixshade35]

With having to constantly make new weapons, tools, armor, and vehicles you should be able to scrap anything completely worn out for more parts. It makes sense from a realistic point of view and makes it easier to replace broken items.

yeah, adding realism to extend gameplay isnt a bad thing if the realism is dulled back a bit, like imagine taking the machete, power attacking, and now its stuck id edgars torso, ur out that weapon for a min lol, lets not add that into the game as funny as it could be

 

[MechanicalLens]

yeah, adding realism to extend gameplay isnt a bad thing if the realism is dulled back a bit, like imagine taking the machete, power attacking, and now its stuck id edgars torso, ur out that weapon for a min lol, lets not add that into the game as funny as it could be

Hence why I posted my suggestion above regarding item degradation.  It wouldn't be obnoxious by any means, but you wouldn't be able to infinitely use x item. Maybe after a dozen or so repairs, you'll want to replace that purple Desert Vulture with that other purple Desert Vulture in your inventory. The trick is to make it an impactful mechanic without, again, making the player agitated that they have to horde a dozen of each gear type and having to switch them constantly, while also just shrugging it off and barely replacing anything. (It would probably have to be catered to suit each gear piece; you'll be repairing augers and other tools far more often than armor, for example.)

 

[Phoenixshade35]

Hence why I posted my suggestion above regarding item degradation.  It wouldn't be obnoxious by any means, but you wouldn't be able to infinitely use x item. Maybe after a dozen or so repairs, you'll want to replace that purple Desert Vulture with that other purple Desert Vulture in your inventory. The trick is to make it an impactful mechanic without, again, making the player agitated that they have to horde a dozen of each gear type and having to switch them constantly, while also just shrugging it off and barely replacing anything. (It would probably have to be catered to suit each gear piece; you'll be repairing augers and other tools far more often than armor, for example.)

oh i agree, it would need careful implementation, thats why i also suggested an option to toggle it, could also have values if toggled on for how much degrading happens, could end up with quite the difficult yet exhilarating gameplay, id be holding onto my tools a lot longer thats for sure, it is something i feel the game is lacking in a sense, they could also kinda have it like dying light where each weapon has a certain number of repairs before she is busted, then u could attempt a repair and it might end up with you only having parts, leading to my random crafting levels idea, where you could craft a level 6 item, or it could come out as a level 3, either one could make interesting gameplay, could even have it with each repair that level 6 steel pickaxe might become a level 5 the more u repair it

 

[Demandred1957]

Again, you're talking about late game.  What about early game when you have your first mechanical vehicle?  If it means that much to y'all, can you just self impose restraint?  When your gun breaks instead of repairing it scrap it or throw it out and use another.  There's no reason to cripple the early game when there are things that can be done by the player to mimic exactly what you're requesting.  People hated hated hated degredation when it was in before, except for a what are probably the same few who want it back now. 

And random crafting is already a thing ... the crafted items have random stats just like found items.

Yeah, kinda reminds me of a post a day or two ago, someone talking about how he dbl dipped on poi quest resets all the time and how he found them to be boring and a cheat, and wanted them took out...

ok... then just don't do that.

Or how nerd poling should be taken out..

Again, if you don't like it, nobody's twisting your arm to do it..

Or how people want the game so much harder to play because death is no big deal..

Ok, erase your save when you die...

This degradation thing is the same thing, and your suggestion is spot on.

If you want that, throw whatever it is away instead of repairing it..

 

[n2n1]

In fact, i agree with all opinions regarding the degradation of items.

There are different mechanics in the game - there are those that are bad and good.... sometimes they are just unfinished. Someone against, someone for...

One thing is important to understand - will be no gameplay without game mechanics.

Therefore, i believe that when something is simply removed without bringing a replacement - it always means emptying the game.

It is naive to believe that you can just come up with game mechanics that don't need to be adjusted/balanced. 

But, even "bad" mechanics can be configured so that it will work.

 

[FileMachete]

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

Having played a game with almost this setup, to me it wasn't fun. And there's a kind of bad unintended consequence; players will try to conserve the repairs and wind up either needing to pack extra bits they wouldn't otherwise, or they'll likely wind up in a scrum and have their weapon stop working at just the worst time.

There is a way around those. Rather than tying End of Life &/or Degradation directly to number of Repairs, tie them to a 'master durability' number instead. So if a player perfers to repair every morning before leaving base, go for it, it won't speed up when their weapon breaks/degrades.

Imo that would really minimize the daily annoyance factor.

 

[Pegasus]

Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

 

[MechanicalLens]

oh i agree, it would need careful implementation, thats why i also suggested an option to toggle it, could also have values if toggled on for how much degrading happens, could end up with quite the difficult yet exhilarating gameplay, id be holding onto my tools a lot longer thats for sure, it is something i feel the game is lacking in a sense, they could also kinda have it like dying light where each weapon has a certain number of repairs before she is busted, then u could attempt a repair and it might end up with you only having parts, leading to my random crafting levels idea, where you could craft a level 6 item, or it could come out as a level 3, either one could make interesting gameplay, could even have it with each repair that level 6 steel pickaxe might become a level 5 the more u repair it

There's a problem with your suggestion however. What if you repaired your level 6 item and it degraded to a level 5, but your former level 6 item had maxed out mod slots. How would the game respond to this (and stay consistent with all other quality level 5 items) when said quality level has one less mod slot?

Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

Just to make my point clear, I'm not advocating for anything here. I'm merely spitballing. If my ideas are inherently flawed, then I see no issue with that conclusion.

 

[Pegasus]

There's a problem with your suggestion however. What if you repaired your level 6 item and it degraded to a level 5, but your former level 6 item had maxed out mod slots. How would the game respond to this (and stay consistent with all other quality level 5 items) when said quality level has one less mod slot?

Easy, the same way it did before.  Pop out one of the mods at random and then you'd have to go back in and reset it how you wanted it.  And if your inventory was full when it happened it'd fall on the floor and disappear forever if you were unlucky.  And then you'd come here and complain like holy hell because it happened to your legendary club of doom and how it completely ruined the game for you and you were never going to play again.

Like I said, this was already in the game and people hated it like poison on a cracker.

 

[Phoenixshade35]

There's a problem with your suggestion however. What if you repaired your level 6 item and it degraded to a level 5, but your former level 6 item had maxed out mod slots. How would the game respond to this (and stay consistent with all other quality level 5 items) when said quality level has one less mod slot?

it could make the mod slot red so you have to remove the mod from the item or the last mod in the item gets put in your backpack, something along those lines i think would work, mind you i don't know anything about lines of code in a game so i don't know if it would cause a problem with crashing and stuff, almost like stuff breaking on an item, imagine u got a level 6, it stays that way but one of the mod slots *breaks* and now u gotta remove that mod cause its unusable, same idea in my head lol, im trying to stay consistent with my train of thoughts on this for how it could work long term

Easy, the same way it did before.  Pop out one of the mods at random and then you'd have to go back in and reset it how you wanted it.  And if your inventory was full when it happened it'd fall on the floor and disappear forever if you were unlucky.  And then you'd come here and complain like holy hell because it happened to your legendary club of doom and how it completely ruined the game for you and you were never going to play again.

now your starting to get negative, lets not bring negativity back to the forum, just constructive criticism if anything, i don't think many would actually storm the forum to complain due to them not paying attention

 

[falloutcloud]

I'm not for or against degradation. If it gets added then I'll adapt to the increased difficulty. I would only suggest ways to make degradation more gradual so it is less impactful if it were added. 

What degradation can add is making some perks/schematics far more useful. Especially if one allowed you to master in a craft to repair an item to full health. This would increase team dynamics. If running solo, then as someone suggested, a trader could repair to full for a price since the traders are now specialized.

 

[Vechs]

Please don't do perma degredation, it's just obnoxious.

 

[Pegasus]

now your starting to get negative, lets not bring negativity back to the forum, just constructive criticism if anything, i don't think many would actually storm the forum to complain due to them not paying attention

LOL  Not being negative ... I remember the posts from before. 

It is a fact ... item degredation upon repair was previously part of the game. It was removed partly because people complained that it was ruining their high quality weapons and tools and partly because TFP felt that a different route for the weapons and tools would better fit their game design.

It is also a fact that if your inventory was full when your item degraded and lost a mod slot the mod would fall on the ground and if you did not get it quick enough or it fell through the world, it was gone forever.

And that was before the extra vehicles were added, so having the vehicles degrade upon repair will open up a whole new level of pain.  If you think that people won't complain about this happening again, then you are a better person than I am or you are on some serious drugs (please share).

But I'll go ahead and back on out of this conversation, you guys have fun with it.

 

[FileMachete]

Stepping back a bit I can't help but see the "need" for this as a substitute for just having more things to play with.

I know I'd rather get a new, "never seen this before! Yay!" shiny over continuously hunting for the same thing I already have.

Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

Honestly I think some didn't start playing until after this was removed.

In my case I was being tongue in cheek when I said I'd played a game with almost this exact mechanic, it was 7dtd, heh :biggrin1:

 

[Vechs]

Actually, I am reminded of an old Japanese belief, that when a tool turned 100 years old, it gained a spirit.  Japan has very limited natural resources, and that permeated their culture (nail-free construction, metalwork that made the best of what metal was around) and so they treasured well made, long-lasted items, and cared for them.

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

 

[Phoenixshade35]

LOL  Not being negative ... I remember the posts from before. 

It is a fact ... item degredation upon repair was previously part of the game. It was removed partly because people complained that it was ruining their high quality weapons and tools and partly because TFP felt that a different route for the weapons and tools would better fit their game design.

It is also a fact that if your inventory was full when your item degraded and lost a mod slot the mod would fall on the ground and if you did not get it quick enough or it fell through the world, it was gone forever.

And that was before the extra vehicles were added, so having the vehicles degrade upon repair will open up a whole new level of pain.  If you think that people won't complain about this happening again, then you are a better person than I am or you are on some serious drugs (please share).

But I'll go ahead and back on out of this conversation, you guys have fun with it.

no drugs, just seeking some new game mechanics, the items now have become bland to me, without the need to constantly go out and find more it makes end game not really last long right now, i want a reason to keep looting, i want a reason to keep going out there

like how i mentioned sandstorms in the desert that could cause damage to bases and such, shot down for annoyance

crops sometimes rotting if u dont harvest right away, shot down too

these things would add new levels to the game that makes people think instead of following the same patterns over and over again, hell i suggested earthquakes that could change the terrain on a map and keep the map alive

im just trying to think of things that can be fun with what we have now

Actually, I am reminded of an old Japanese belief, that when a tool turned 100 years old, it gained a spirit.  Japan has very limited natural resources, and that permeated their culture (nail-free construction, metalwork that made the best of what metal was around) and so they treasured well made, long-lasted items, and cared for them.

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

they had that back in a15 actually, it was the skills got better and u could craft better items from using it a lot, kinda like skyrim skill progression, it was taken out because people would cheese it and dupe like hell to have a level 600 stone ax day 1

 

[MechanicalLens]

Actually, I am reminded of an old Japanese belief, that when a tool turned 100 years old, it gained a spirit.  Japan has very limited natural resources, and that permeated their culture (nail-free construction, metalwork that made the best of what metal was around) and so they treasured well made, long-lasted items, and cared for them.

How is this for an idea:  The longer you use an item, the BETTER it gets.

Maybe this could be a book capstone or a skill, that whenever you repair an item with 0 durability, there's a chance for it to jump up a level in quality.

There's also the trope from fantasy games of having a powerful weapon be able to gain XP itself and level up.

Or you could just leave an M60 in a chest for 100 in-game days and suddenly, bam, it deals 400 weapon damage and has a 600 magazine size by default.

 

[Roland]

Just reminds me of the days when the forum was in charge of balance and we ended up with all guns being really hard to find and make while at the same time all being way worse than the starter bow. 

First of all, the forum has never been in charge of balance. People like to blame "ouspoken minorities" on the forum for a change they don't agree with-- probably in some thin attempt to appear loyal to the developers themselves. There is only and has only ever been one group in charge of balance and that is the development team. If they made a change that went along with the sentiment of the forum then it was something they discussed in house and decided upon as well. Sometimes there have been reactions by the developers in response to overwhelming negative feedback but there was never an era or "the days" when all the devs did was follow however the forum sentiments blew. We'd still be kneedeep in LBD if that were true.

Secondly, there is no reason why degradation has to involve a loss of quality or modslots. All it has to be is a number of repairs possible until the item can no longer be repaired. Then it can be scrapped for parts. I'm all for simple and streamlined. No complication with mod slots, no changing colors, just a finite number of repairs. Easy-Peasy.

For those of you who never use stuff that degrades you could use it up until it's last repair and then keep it as a trophy forever. That way you would get some use out of it AND always have it around to look at.

 

[Phoenixshade35]

First of all, the forum has never been in charge of balance. People like to blame "ouspoken minorities" on the forum for a change they don't agree with-- probably in some thin attempt to appear loyal to the developers themselves. There is only and has only ever been one group in charge of balance and that is the development team. If they made a change that went along with the sentiment of the forum then it was something they discussed in house and decided upon as well. Sometimes there have been reactions by the developers in response to overwhelming negative feedback but there was never an era or "the days" when all the devs did was follow however the forum sentiments blew. We'd still be kneedeep in LBD if that were true.

Secondly, there is no reason why degradation has to involve a loss of quality or modslots. All it has to be is a number of repairs possible until the item can no longer be repaired. Then it can be scrapped for parts. I'm all for simple and streamlined. No complication with mod slots, no changing colors, just a finite number of repairs. Easy-Peasy.

For those of you who never use stuff that degrades you could use it up until it's last repair and then keep it as a trophy forever. That way you would get some use out of it AND always have it around to look at.

Does that mean we can get gun and armor racks for our bases to showcase awesome stuff we have for the trophies