PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[EmpV]

I think degradation would be huge plus for crafting and the new tiered loot. In every game I have played since alpha 18, crafting ends once I make a tier 5 or get that purple. I’m both excited and disappointed when this happens.  All those parts just accumulate in boxes and never get used. There is an opportunity here to give crafters some love and even add a rare chance for crafting a rare tier 6.

With the new tiered loot, you could have a chance to loot a higher tier weapon sooner, but you might have to switch back to something more primitive when it wears out. You might decide to save a better weapon for something important like horde night. 
 

If your beloved tier 6 weapon finally degrades and breaks, it’s not that inconvenient to loot, buy a replacement, or craft a replacement since you are likely spec’d for it anyways. You probably have 2 or 3 in a box anyways. 
Tier 6 purples should be special, but not so special and eternal that crafting and looting doesn’t matter any more. 

Mods that enhance durability get a big boost from degradation.(Why even craft them or use them when your weapon/tool lasts forever with 1 click easy instant repair kits). 
 

I understand players play differently and a large number of players will play a shorter game and will restart around the purple tier stage(especially during alpha), but I also believe a lot of players will play a longer game and enjoy more crafting and an ongoing search for loot/parts. Especially when there is more to the end game. 

I do believe degradation could be fun and balanced, but it should also be one of the optional settings in the game settings. 

 

[Roland]

Without going back to single out anyone I just want to make my own final post on this subject and say that a limited use of items like tools and weapons would not have to affect blocks and vehicles as some have been warning. Blocks are not items, they are blocks. They have their own system of repair which is completely different than items. Vehicles are about to get their own system of critical damage. Vehicles will be more like us than they will be like items. 
 

Personally, I wouldn’t be against vehicles eventually wearing out and being beyond repair. But the point is that they wouldn’t have to follow the same system as tools and guns. 
 

As others have echoed whatever the devs decide will be the new normal or the continued normal. I’ve said my piece on this and Madmole very well may disagree with me. It wouldn’t be the first time.

 

[Phoenixshade35]

I think degradation would be huge plus for crafting and the new tiered loot. In every game I have played since alpha 18, crafting ends once I make a tier 5 or get that purple. I’m both excited and disappointed when this happens.  All those parts just accumulate in boxes and never get used. There is an opportunity here to give crafters some love and even add a rare chance for crafting a rare tier 6.

With the new tiered loot, you could have a chance to loot a higher tier weapon sooner, but you might have to switch back to something more primitive when it wears out. You might decide to save a better weapon for something important like horde night. 
 

If your beloved tier 6 weapon finally degrades and breaks, it’s not that inconvenient to loot, buy a replacement, or craft a replacement since you are likely spec’d for it anyways. You probably have 2 or 3 in a box anyways. 
Tier 6 purples should be special, but not so special and eternal that crafting and looting doesn’t matter any more. 

Mods that enhance durability get a big boost from degradation.(Why even craft them or use them when your weapon/tool lasts forever with 1 click easy instant repair kits). 
 

I understand players play differently and a large number of players will play a shorter game and will restart around the purple tier stage(especially during alpha), but I also believe a lot of players will play a longer game and enjoy more crafting and an ongoing search for loot/parts. Especially when there is more to the end game. 

I do believe degradation could be fun and balanced, but it should also be one of the optional settings in the game settings. 

i do feel it would help the feeling of the game, like right now it is in a good place, i have no questions about that, but i feel the crafting part of the game has slightly fallen behind the rest, this would bring a meaning to crafting again, like after crafting a vehicle, unless it glitches out of the world, creating another one never happens outside of servers, unless someone wanted to fix the biker bar and park a bunch of bikes outside of it, which brings out the looks lol, it could work, just needs testing and tweaking, plus more discussion lol

Without going back to single out anyone I just want to make my own final post on this subject and say that a limited use of items like tools and weapons would not have to affect blocks and vehicles as some have been warning. Blocks are not items, they are blocks. They have their own system of repair which is completely different than items. Vehicles are about to get their own system of critical damage. Vehicles will be more like us than they will be like items. 
 

Personally, I wouldn’t be against vehicles eventually wearing out and being beyond repair. But the point is that they wouldn’t have to follow the same system as tools and guns. 
 

As others have echoed whatever the devs decide will be the new normal or the continued normal. I’ve said my piece on this and Madmole very well may disagree with me. It wouldn’t be the first time.

i even wouldn't mind having it so higher tier weapons and tools require more than 1 repair kit to fix, could make for some interesting choices as well

 

[FileMachete]

So I died a bit ago, looting one of the new Shamway buildings. In the main ground floor area there's a wood plank leading to a lift cage with some cement, cross that to some large vats.

I shoveled the cement and the hoist and cage came apart, dropped me and things fell on me wee head and brained me dead.

Not playing permadeath so no biggie. Just mentioning it in case it's not supposed to do that?

And just in case anyone in the know (devs/mods) happens to know, are some of the chain-hoist+platform with cobb/cement supposed to fall apart when the c/c is shoveled? Or should none of them fail & we should report those that do fail..?

 

[pregnable]

You are equating Gazz to the forum? Gazz did what the dev team told him to do and then it got okay tested by Madmole and the values were adjusted. You mentioned two people from the dev team. Well you mentioned yourself but your only contribution was laughter. So...still no forum being in charge. 

I wouldn’t say the game needs it either. I just believe that it creates better choices and additional uses for mats we have. I’d like it in so that it is easily moddable. People run the spectrum. Crafting nuts probably would like stuff wearing out every week so they have an i game need to craft more.  You would want to have it modded so it never occurs during your game. I’m between those two. Getting it in gives us all a chance to have it how we like. 

Really? You’re stooping to playing the “I’ll uninstall!” card?  That tactic holds more weight with devs who create games on a subscription model. lel.

No, from what I remember it was mostly Gazz doing the balancing at the time, and the game was going in the direction of the people that wanted playing the game to feel like a job, and guns ended up much worse that the starter bow.  I mean you probably know better that I do who was involved with all of that at the time, but I remember MM doing other stuff at that time.  I know I did not really like it and stopped playing. 

I also know I like the game a lot now.  It is one of my top games now and one of the few that I play.  I would rather not see it go back to those days.

I am not "stooping to playing the uninstall card", nor do I think this change is even going to happen, but if the game goes backwards and is not fun anymore I am obviously going to just play something else, lel. 

I am only posting so that it is not just the vocal minority that posts on the forum all the time on here. 

You sure are jumpy today... did a Dev show you a really good working zipline design and then delete it right in front of you?  lel

 

[Adam the Waster]

So I died a bit ago, looting one of the new Shamway buildings. In the main ground floor area there's a wood plank leading to a lift cage with some cement, cross that to some large vats.

I shoveled the cement and the hoist and cage came apart, dropped me and things fell on me wee head and brained me dead.

Not playing permadeath so no biggie. Just mentioning it in case it's not supposed to do that?

And just in case anyone in the know (devs/mods) happens to know, are some of the chain-hoist+platform with cobb/cement supposed to fall apart when the c/c is shoveled? Or should none of them fail & we should report those that do fail..?

Speaking of the new shameway buildings!

WTF Happened to the Shameway super market! Looks like a Cruise Missile hit that damn building! it looks cool but i want to know the story!

TFP we need LORE!

 

[EggsAisle]

Not a fan of permanent degradation. It undercuts the sense of accomplishment ("good work, here's a temporary power-up!" just isn't as exciting) and discourages people from using them. The trade-off is that you potentially undercut future discoveries, like in Roland's example of how finding a blue M-60 isn't that exciting when you already have one. Speaking for myself here: I don't find that a huge problem. I'm okay if the loot hunt ends at some point, because I feel like I've made progress. It's annoying to be playing in a sandbox and have to keep re-earning all the cool toys, y'know? 

 

[HungryZombie]

Not a fan of permanent degradation. It undercuts the sense of accomplishment ("good work, here's a temporary power-up!" just isn't as exciting) and discourages people from using them. The trade-off is that you potentially undercut future discoveries, like in Roland's example of how finding a blue M-60 isn't that exciting when you already have one. Speaking for myself here: I don't find that a huge problem. I'm okay if the loot hunt ends at some point, because I feel like I've made progress. It's annoying to be playing in a sandbox and have to keep re-earning all the cool toys, y'know? 

I think random stats have been forgotten from the discussion. Why bother looting searching for a max damage blue M-60 when it's just going to become useless anyways. I

Permanent degradation sort of negates the random stats aspect of the game I think.

 

[Outlaw_187]

I'll throw in my vote for item degridation. I'll go a step further & say I liked the quality 1-600 of old (however hated the gun parts system....I'm sure this is controversial on its own). 

I liked everytime you repaired something, it lost just a little bit of quality. Wasn't there even a level up to where it didn't degrade as much & you even used less resources?

Idk, I liked it & would just add that much more "management" to the game. I'm also fine with the way it is. Love the game regardless.

 

[Laz Man]

I think its best to wait on considering reintroducing degradation back into the game until the majority of end game content is in.

Since a core design of the game revolves around time management in preparation for the blood moon hordes, the devs are probably hesitant to add more activities then they already have planned.

As a veteran player, I can understand the desire for degradation as it will lengthen the looting game further and thus keep us playing longer.

However, if I had to choose between item degreadation and more quest variety, I would choose the latter.  If its possible to mod item degradation back in relatively easily its an even easier decision for the latter.

 

[doughphunghus]

Speaking of the new shameway buildings!

WTF Happened to the Shameway super market! Looks like a Cruise Missile hit that damn building! it looks cool but i want to know the story!

TFP we need LORE!

I would also appreciate some TFP sanctioned lore as well, or at minimum, add in some modding capability it in so I could spawn items/notes/books at a specific POI (or type of POI). Maybe even have a quest send you to that specific POI.

 

[madmole]

Only a solution to an imaginary problem , but that is only my opinion. For who was it a problem?

In singleplayer there is the option to turn horde/zombies off, and in multiplayer one can just log off, hoping someone don't have start driving back to horde base at 21:59. Maybe it save some server clockcycles though, but that's about it.

It is a problem for those who want a real challenge (probably a fair amount if not majority of players) and being easily safe with exploits removes the incentive to keep playing. I recall playing A16 and was having fun until I was looting too late and had no choice but to sit on a roof top. I threw some spikes down to clog up the stair well and thought I'd be dead for sure, but all they did was spin circles and break a few blocks and make some noise. I quit playing, I thought why would I build a great fort if all you need to do is sit on a roof of an old crusty building. No challenge = no fun for me in any game.

Well obviously the idea of item degradation is controversial based on the reactions to my post but I have to ask why people think it is a good idea that once you find something that’s it for the rest of the game. Done.
 

Find a blue M60 and it’s so awesome. 
Find another blue M60 and it’s meh. 
 

With item degradation that second find would also be awesome and such a relief. 
 

People argue that nobody wants to have to replace stuff every 20 minutes and I agree that would suck. But it is simplicity itself to adjust and control how often that replacement would be happening.  It’s just a number. TFP could make that number conservative so that tools and weapons and armor last a long time. Then people who hate the mechanic no matter how long it might be could change the number so it would never happen in a single game and others who might want it to be more of a management need could change the number to something they would feel was more meaningful and impactful for them. 
 

But in a game with practically infinite resources, degradation of SOME degree can help use up those resources and also add choices to the game of whether its best to sell or save. Right now selling is a foregone conclusion. 

Delete backpack on death dude. Same basic thing, 0 complaints from people though. Or just remove the repair kit from your game and maybe double the degradation of items. I actually enjoyed rebuilding my stuff when my backpack got removed before we fixed the bug. Or just use no mods, self control like the ppl dead is dead around here, and scrap your stuff when it degrades and let us know how you like it.

 

[madmole]

What are the chances of making it so you can't stand on cloth objects? Like tents, trying to do so it breaks and you fall though.

You do realize those are like tarps and pretty thick. The odds are zero because we don't want a bunch of stability bugs for something that doesn't add much value.

Yes, there is already an option for horde or not. And that is why i do not see there is a problem needing to be solved in additional ways. If harder difficulties came with horde settings greyed out, i could understand it, but as it is now, i just can't.

Turning off the horde doesn't solve it for those who want a challenge, but don't have the self control to stay off the motorcycle. And they shouldn't have to use self control the game should just murder them in every cheap scenario, until they decide its too much and change the options.

Not to mention that if even pipe weapons were non-repairable, would it really add anything to the game? A couple infinitely repairable primitive weapons in your hotbar vs hoarding as many as you could. Just my thoughts.

People would just craft/loot more. It would lead to further inventory issues because  you would need multiple guns, tools etc. To me this seems like a great mod for people who love hardcore feel to things, but I don't see it making the default game any better.

 

[madmole]

@Roland @madmole How about with each repair, gear could gradually lose stats, making finding a replacement that much more valuable? For example, if you repair that blue M60 over and over, it would lose 2-3 damage per repair, maybe some durability here and there, perhaps some rounds per minute here and there as well. Armor could slowly lose effective resistance, armor rating, durability... Tools could lose block damage, durability, etc... If you glue together a smashed plate, the cracks will nonetheless forever show. Eventually your gear will degrade enough that you'll be able to justify replacing it, but it won't be such a sudden event (from working to suddenly broken) that it wouldn't cause immediate frustration.

It is just more crap to confuse players with IMO. Not everyone plays the game long games like you guys do, most people wouldn't even notice it because they just upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.... then they are end game and quit or restart. I don't actually repair my stuff that much, I replace it after about 1 or 2 repairs max. I don't know the exact number of times, but most of my repair kits go to items I find and I repair them to sell them for max xp and dukes. I don't think repair comes into play except on horde nights or lengthy mining sessions. Maybe early game that lame stone axe needs repaired often... but I could just as well craft another, and often I do, because I level, and craft all new stone tools, clubs etc. Repair isn't something we actually do that much. By the time my armor is shot, I have new stuff. Repair isn't really a big part of the game, so I don't think it is worth bothering with. It wouldn't really change the experience that much IMO.

 

 

[STyK_]

You do realize those are like tarps and pretty thick. The odds are zero because we don't want a bunch of stability bugs for something that doesn't add much value.

Ok was weighing whether how I did the survivors sites was cheesy and thought of that but if it its thick tarps I feel better about it.

 

[pregnable]

Random encounters could be really fun, if they are not too much work to do. 

They were fun in like fallout 2 where you would just run across a scripted map randomly somewhere with like startrek @%$*#! or the Café of Broken Dreams.

The 3d fallouts did it in like set locations, but 7 days could actually do it and have a random POI spawn or something, very much like fallout 2. 

Not sure how you would work it with weird ones and not having them repeat... would probably mostly stick to bandit type things that do not matter if they repeat.  Things that makes sense. 

I think you guys were talking about doing that with some of the vehicle breakdowns.  Could be cool.

 

[madmole]

Apparently no one remembers when this exact thing was in the game before and people complained about it constantly.

Why are we trying to add mechanics back in that were already tried and removed?

They can try until they are blue in the face we aren't changing it, even if I personally loved the idea and I don't. I'd rather just play with delete backpack on death myself, than to be constantly playing change my mods out tetris because my stuff wears out. I don't have 10 minutes to swap all my crap out, the horde is coming. Repair is meant to be an inconvenience at the worst time If you try to be stingy on your repair kits, not a full on simulation.

 

[hiemfire]

<Looks over the quality degradation discussion, tosses in a couple reactions, remembers personal experiences with the rng system, looks back at the discussion>

I don't think those who are in support of this really understand the rng driven, mental/emotional strain inducing hell they're asking to bring (back?) into the game. Though I do see some irony in a mod maker being a driving force behind the suggestion.

 

[madmole]

I think its best to wait on considering reintroducing degradation back into the game until the majority of end game content is in.

Since a core design of the game revolves around time management in preparation for the blood moon hordes, the devs are probably hesitant to add more activities then they already have planned.

As a veteran player, I can understand the desire for degradation as it will lengthen the looting game further and thus keep us playing longer.

However, if I had to choose between item degreadation and more quest variety, I would choose the latter.  If its possible to mod item degradation back in relatively easily its an even easier decision for the latter.

Guys can just make the repair item whatever parts it is made from in a mod. Have fun lugging around 20 booger pickers to repair your stuff. Personally I think it might be kind of interesting, but since it is time management I think it interferes with new accomplishments a player could be working towards. Oh crap my pants broke, now I need to craft new pants and transplant 4 mods. A full set of armor with 4 mods each? It is probably upwards of 100 clicks to get the materials, craft the stuff, uninstall all the mods from the broken armor, and reinstall to the new armor, and then equip. Its just a bunch of pointless clicking with very little "fun factor". How rewarding is it to use up your parts in your parts bin? We could always do crits on guns and you need a random part, like we are planning for vehicles.

 

[Jugginator]

Oh crap my pants broke, now I need to craft new pants and transplant 4 mods.

That was one thing I am very grateful that got changed; I thought the same damn thing: "Oh noes my damn [shirt,bandana,shoes,pants] broke, gotta take them off repair them and put them back on" (or craft new ones lol) was really silly. Now that we can put mods in them... that would have sucked.

Something I've noticed: repair kits frequently drop out of boxes in 20+ stacks on normal loot % and they're dirt cheap to make now, just a balancing thing I noticed.