PC I have a forge problem

[Kyonshi]

/boggle

Is it that much of a stretch to come to a discussion forum about a game to point out that there is a circular requirement that cannot be met under certain circumstances?  I made no demands, I did not expect anything from you or anyone else, nor did I do anything other than point it out and open up a discussion.  Why are you attacking this concept like I've personally offended you or TFP in some way?

What the f...

I didnt attacked you. The hell you're talking about? Relax buddy

Why is it so much of an issue to you that there's divergent points of view from your own?? That's called... life! People will sometimes disagree with you. Take note of this for the future?

Now, you've been told, before i did, that you put yourself in a very difficult spot by accentuating the challenge kinda out of bounds from what the original game design suggested, so that your experience is suffering from it. And then you noticed a "circular pattern" that puts you into a borderline dead-end. You dont say? Its pretty normal that if you remove some pieces of a puzzle to give yourself a hardcore challenge, you'll end up being unable to finish the said puzzle.

So, what can you do to circumvent that problem? Add the pieces back in the game. If you play within those boundaries aformentioned, you wont have that catch 22 situation. But the more you remove from the game's tools, the more you remove from yourself. That's what i meant when i said "What do you expect from us?". If you really wanna put yourself in that challenging setting, you'll just have to run from one end of the map, scavenging everything, every inch-square, to the other and grasp a thin hope that you'll stumble upon the item you need. If you find some fun into this, fine. But personally, i prefer playing a zombie survival game rather than a pure archeological one.

 

[meganoth]

What the f...

I didnt attacked you. The hell you're talking about? Relax buddy

Why is it so much of an issue to you that there's divergent points of view from your own?? That's called... life! People will sometimes disagree with you. Take note of this for the future?

Now, you've been told, before i did, that you put yourself in a very difficult spot by accentuating the challenge kinda out of bounds from what the original game design suggested, so that your experience is suffering from it. And then you noticed a "circular pattern" that puts you into a borderline dead-end. You dont say? Its pretty normal that if you remove some pieces of a puzzle to give yourself a hardcore challenge, you'll end up being unable to finish the said puzzle.

So, what can you do to circumvent that problem? Add the pieces back in the game. If you play within those boundaries aformentioned, you wont have that catch 22 situation. But the more you remove from the game's tools, the more you remove from yourself. That's what i meant when i said "What do you expect from us?". If you really wanna put yourself in that challenging setting, you'll just have to run from one end of the map, scavenging everything, every inch-square, to the other and grasp a thin hope that you'll stumble upon the item you need. If you find some fun into this, fine. But personally, i prefer playing a zombie survival game rather than a pure archeological one.

I'd say you are correct in your answer and correct about not deserving that reply but you misunderstand Maharin's point of view. It is not about difficulty it is about crafting being self-sufficient.

In some earlier alphas you (maybe) could craft everything you need from the bottom up by just mining and picking plants. Maharin seemed to think this was a fundamental design principle of the game, but it definitely isn't, at least now it isn't. The game needs you to scrap the remnants of civilization as well. Why? Because a level 1 player is an idiot and needs a schematic to even build a forge, and that forge in that schematic has a pipe .

The first years I was cooking in RL I was just like my avatar in 7D2D, slavishly following the recipes.

 

[Gideon]

Workbenches also require a wrench, which can only be built at a workbench or looted. Some things seem to require a recipe to unlock, or to be looted.

Several things are only available through loot. If you like to use game settings that cripple your ability to find things through loot, then it might just be a limitation of your play style that you have to accept.

 

[gurutar]

speaking of circular crafting requirements, this thread is going around in circles.

OP, there is no catch 22. everyone has explained this several times and you keep bringing it up. play the game the way you want to play it. but no one else has this issue. you made it for yourself.

why did you make this thread if you're not going to listen to what people are saying?

 

[Solomon]

I gotta say that now that you said it, the whole thing does sound stupid as hell.

You need A to craft B but you need B to craft C what is requied to make A.

speaking of circular crafting requirements, this thread is going around in circles.

OP, there is no catch 22. everyone has explained this several times and you keep bringing it up. play the game the way you want to play it. but no one else has this issue. you made it for yourself.

why did you make this thread if you're not going to listen to what people are saying?

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item. Its a design oversight and an easily fixable one too.

We already can make a campfire so all we need is a recipe what uses lots of coal, clay and some iron to make a pipe. Its easy as hell and prevents any kind of future problems what impossible designs could cause.

 

[Psychodabble]

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item. Its a design oversight and an easily fixable one too.

This is strictly your opinion. It is not a design oversight, it's a design choice to disallow players focusing on crafting to the exclusion of all else.

You may disagree with the choice, but it's not a mistake and it's not objectively wrong.

 

[katarynna]

I gotta say that now that you said it, the whole thing does sound stupid as hell.

You need A to craft B but you need B to craft C what is requied to make A.

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item. Its a design oversight and an easily fixable one too.

We already can make a campfire so all we need is a recipe what uses lots of coal, clay and some iron to make a pipe. Its easy as hell and prevents any kind of future problems what impossible designs could cause.

Tape and short iron pipes can be looted from trash bags.

Even if he removed ALL pois from his map, he can still make a forge, a campfire, and a cooking pot. He will just need to spend time finding the components he needs. It will be harder that vanilla, which makes sense because he modded the game to be harder than vanilla.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

You can´t balance a game for mods and vanilla. That dosen´t work and no game ever did that.  It´s a self inflicted problem caused by a mod that can easily be solved with another mod that allows you to make short iron pipes from raw iron.

 

[Laz Man]

I think in the grand scheme of things the circular requirement for pipe/wrench/forge is a moot point in the vanilla game as stated by many folks.  If I had to guess, its probably a gameplay decision to prevent players from churning out a forge too early in the game given what the forge gives players (e.g. repair kits, etc.).

 

[Maharin]

Workbenches also require a wrench, which can only be built at a workbench or looted. Some things seem to require a recipe to unlock, or to be looted.

Several things are only available through loot. If you like to use game settings that cripple your ability to find things through loot, then it might just be a limitation of your play style that you have to accept.

You can make a wrench without a workbench.  There is a perk for it and it can be made from your inventory now:

<recipe name="meleeToolSalvageT1Wrench" count="1" tags="learnable,perkSalvageOperations">
	<ingredient name="resourceForgedIron" count="12"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceMechanicalParts" count="4"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceDuctTape" count="2"/>
	<effect_group>
		<passive_effect name="CraftingIngredientCount" level="2,6" operation="perc_add" value=".5,2.5" tags="resourceForgedIron,resourceMechanicalParts,resourceDuctTape"/>
	</effect_group>
</recipe>

 

[Maharin]

What the f...

I didnt attacked you. The hell you're talking about? Relax buddy

Might want to reread my post.  I did not say you attacked me, I said you attacked the concept.  The circular crafting requirements I pointed out do not need to be in the game.  They could easily be removed with simple changes and no harm to anything.  But instead of people looking at that simple fact I get accused of creating the problem, which I did not.  This issue was not created by a mod as it is in the base, unmodified game.  You don't notice it in the base game because there are relatively easy workarounds, but it is still there.

You can´t balance a game for mods and vanilla.

This isn't a balance issue nor is it a mod issue.  Either TFP is fine with the circular dependencies or they are not.  Either way, I found circumstances that made the circular dependencies become a problem and thought I'd post about it.  I had no idea this thread would progress the way it has.

 

[Solomon]

Tape and short iron pipes can be looted from trash bags.

Even if he removed ALL pois from his map, he can still make a forge, a campfire, and a cooking pot. He will just need to spend time finding the components he needs. It will be harder that vanilla, which makes sense because he modded the game to be harder than vanilla.

You are missing the entire point here. Crafter games should never have circular dependencies because it can potentially create gamebreaking bugs if one of the dependencies are missing.

A simple example would be a slight bug what removes pipes from the loot tables (minor edit in the xml) and boom now you have a bunch of angry players all over the forums that they cant make forges. Sure you could still bash toilets to get them but this would be enough to cause anger.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

So you play on a map that was generated from the game itself? You didn´t use nitrogen or modded the game yourself to get fewer POI´s? I doubt that. Normal maps have loads of POI´s. There is always enoug POI´s in reach if you use vanilla maps.  If you used nitrogen or  modded the game in any way to get a map with fewer POI´s, it is a self made mod problem. @Maharin

And as said already: This game is designed with the intention to loot POI´s. They don´t want people to sit in the wilderness avoiding zombies. You would render the whole game to something completly different if you can just avoid places where zombies are. You need mods for your problem. TFP won´t give you what you want.

 

[Tahaan]

If I was in the OP's situation I would just mod the Forge recipe not to require pipes.  Once you have a forge you can make pipes for everything else that needs them.

 

[Maharin]

So you play on a map that was generated from the game itself? You didn´t use nitrogen or modded the game yourself to get fewer POI´s? I doubt that. Normal maps have loads of POI´s. There is always enoug POI´s in reach if you use vanilla maps.  If you used nitrogen or  modded the game in any way to get a map with fewer POI´s, it is a self made mod problem. @Maharin

And as said already: This game is designed with the intention to loot POI´s. They don´t want people to sit in the wilderness avoiding zombies. You would render the whole game to something completly different if you can just avoid places where zombies are. You need mods for your problem. TFP won´t give you what you want.

Once again, this thread was NEVER about the mods or game balance.  I was simply pointing out that there are circular dependencies in the crafting recipes.  The only mod I used was NitroGen to make the map I was playing on, nothing else.  The map structure help me pinpoint the underlying problem of "you need A to make B and you need B to make A".  

I wish everyone would stop trying to make this thread into some big gripe against TFP or 7DTD because it isn't.

 

[katarynna]

You are missing the entire point here. Crafter games should never have circular dependencies because it can potentially create gamebreaking bugs if one of the dependencies are missing.

A simple example would be a slight bug what removes pipes from the loot tables (minor edit in the xml) and boom now you have a bunch of angry players all over the forums that they cant make forges. Sure you could still bash toilets to get them but this would be enough to cause anger.

I think you are missing the point. This is NOT a pure crafting game. It is a blend of multiple genres. And the fun pimps have specifically designed the game so that you can not craft everything without looting. 

If there were "a slight but what removes pipes from the loot table" there would not be a bunch of angry players all over the forums complaining that they can't make forges. Those players would get their iron pipes from smashing toilets with their stone axes. The only players affected would be the 0.0001% who modded their game to include no pois.

Once again, this thread was NEVER about the mods or game balance.  I was simply pointing out that there are circular dependencies in the crafting recipes.

While true, TFP's design decisions include using looting and salvage to get the items you need for many recipes. Since even with your map, you can still make a forge if you loot enough trash bags or scout further to find one of the rare pois on your map, i think it's ok as is. To me, it's interesting that a change such as the one you made with your map had the unintended consequence of making simple things like cooking pots and forges much more difficult to obtain early game. It seems to change the gameplay much more than i would have thought. Good luck finding what you need!

I would be interested in hearing about any other challenges you come across with a limited poi map that you didn't anticipate when you started it.

 

[JCrook1028]

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item.

But that situation does not exist. Pipes DO NOT need to be crafted to make a forge. Hell they're so common I scrap em instantly upon looting them.

 

[Maharin]

But that situation does not exist. Pipes DO NOT need to be crafted to make a forge. Hell they're so common I scrap em instantly upon looting them.

No, the circular dependencies exist even in vanilla.  Whether they impact your play style or not is irrelevant.  It's there and it doesn't need to be there.  It's easy to mod in a fix (I posted one possibility earlier) but the point is still valid that it probably shouldn't be set up that way in the first place.

 

[Solomon]

I think you are missing the point. This is NOT a pure crafting game. It is a blend of multiple genres. And the fun pimps have specifically designed the game so that you can not craft everything without looting. 

If there were "a slight but what removes pipes from the loot table" there would not be a bunch of angry players all over the forums complaining that they can't make forges. Those players would get their iron pipes from smashing toilets with their stone axes. The only players affected would be the 0.0001% who modded their game to include no pois.

You do know that toilets are part of the loot table?

If a bug removes the pipes from the loot table that means you dont find pipes anywhere.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Your problem is that you don´t want to loot. In a game where you are supposed to do so. Again: The circular dependencies exist so that people do not avoid zombies by living far away from cities not entering POI´s. You try to dodge that by using a modded map and want TFP to change that. It needs to be there in order to confront players with enemies.

This problem doesn´t exist on vanilla maps. It is a mod problem. And that you want to play a different game. This game is about looting. Don´t want it any other way personally. 

If you want to avoid looting you need a another mod for your modded map. It´s not going to happen that you can play the game without entering any POI, still beeing able to build  a huge base against the horde.

Also the whole story line will revolve around traders and the white river citizens vs the duke and his bandits. With quests beeing a part of it, that for sure will include POI´s.