PC So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[RestInPieces]

I said nothing of the sort, my stance was highly nuanced and you boiled it down into a binary to suit your own purposes.

Highly nuanced?

It was at best coarse and your arguments amounted to "how wrong I am", accused me of making double standards without understanding what double standards mean, all while avoiding to talk on point and ignoring the sources I linked.

Drawing parallels between two radically different games implying that the same rules apply to both is incredibly disingenuous and shows a remarkable lack of understanding of even the most basic levels of game design.

I didn't want to quote this before I gave you a chance to read what I linked, but those Gamasutra/GDC articles (and many more) from verified game designers are directly contesting what you are saying. If you ever want to climb up from your current position, be less of a forum warrior and more of an open-minded person.

Narrative is more than a "story in words" and immersion doesn't only apply to story-driven "walking simulators" but to world building, theming and consistency as well. Again, don't take my word for it -- unlike you, I base my arguments on sources, not some unfounded personal vanity.

 

[Ralathar44]

I didn't want to quote this before I gave you a chance to read what I linked, but those Gamasutra/GDC articles (and many more) from verified game designers are directly contesting what you are saying. If you ever want to climb up from your current position, be less of a forum warrior and more of an open-minded person.

Narrative is more than a "story in words" and immersion doesn't only apply to story-driven "walking simulators" but to world building, theming and consistency as well. Again, don't take my word for it -- unlike you, I base my arguments on sources, not some unfounded personal vanity.

Can you be specific? because there are many comments and replies to different people and none of your comments have been targeted, you've stayed incredibly vague and referenced no specific comment of mine.  Each comments has it's own context, they are not from some catch all bucket where they can be considered a homogeneous whole, so you need to be specific.  Anything can argued and any picture can be painted if one stays vague.  Thus I cannot properly evaluate this statement without definitive context and casting ad hominems such as "unfounded personal vanity" at someone with such a vague basing amounts to nothing more than a personal attack. 

The gamasutra article you linked was this one and that's written by a psycho logist (added a space due to over aggressive cuss filter) and gamer Jamie Madigan, NOT a verified game designer as you claim.  They have never worked at a game company.  They are an outsider looking in as an end user who wrote a handful of blogs for Gamasutra.  Are we considering a few blogs from someone who never worked in video games to be an expert opinion now?  That seems like a low bar that I could reach by next week if I wanted to.  They state they've consulted with game development companies and talked at conferences about how game developers can incorporate psy@%$*#!gy principles into game design and how players can understand how it affects their play.   But who, where, when?  Nothing is cited.  None of this is ever mentioned or defined. He's definitely never been a speaker at GDC.  Best I could find proof of is him speaking at Chi Play, which is a tiny new Austin based conference or him speaking at some colleges.

The GDC Video you linked here was a WRITER for the Walking Dead, which is the game being discussed in the video.  It's a game that's almost completely narrative with barely any actual gameplay.  His name is Sean Vanaman and he's a Writer, not a designer, and he's only worked on puzzle games and narrative story games like the Walking Dead.  He was credited as writer/designer during the super early days of Telltale where everyone had to do multiple jobs.  He's never been a main designer or a lead designer.  So OFC a Writer for narrative games believes in suspension of disbelief in video games lol.  He's qualified to talk about suspension of disbelief as a writer in narrative games, nothing else.  I wouldn't hire a Basketball expert to advise about Hockey, same concept works here....I wouldn't listen to a writer of narrative games with almost no gameplay on how suspension of disbelief works in open world survival games that are almost pure gameplay .


Quite frankly your approach and methodology here is ill informed, poorly defined, and highly disingenuous.  Take a concrete stance with proper references as to the context, support it properly, and do not make claims beyond the evidence you have presented.  It's bad enough that you're being so condescending but you're not even backing it up with solid information.  You just googled stuff that backed up what you felt and stopped there, you never verified or researched the source it came from.   What is this, Twitter/Reddit/Facebook?  I expect better here.  I prolly shouldn't, but if you're going to try to take the insult slinging approach you've taken you really need to back it up properly and you have not done that.

 

[RestInPieces]

you've stayed incredibly vague and referenced no specific comment of mine. 

I certainly did, and if you don't remember, since I can't always post immediately after a reply and sometimes take days, feel free to go back to the previous pages and refresh your memory.

and casting ad hominems such as "unfounded personal vanity" at someone with such a vague basing amounts to nothing more than a personal attack. 

At least I am not the one dedicating whole paragraphs for the sake of "ad hominem". But let me guess, you did not recognize yours. You see, ad hominem, no matter where they are directed annoy me only for one reason -- they often are used to cover a lack of actual arguments.

His name is Sean Vanaman and he's a Writer, not a designer, and he's only worked on puzzle games and narrative story games like the Walking Dead.  He was credited as writer/designer during the super early days of Telltale where everyone had to do multiple jobs.  He's never been a main designer or a lead designer.  So OFC a Writer for narrative games believes in suspension of disbelief in video games lol.  He's qualified to talk about suspension of disbelief as a writer in narrative games, nothing else. 

Vanaman took a position at Telltale Games as a writer and game designer.

So since he wasn't a "main" or "lead" designer and just a plain writer/designer, after working in a creative role inside the industry for years, doesn't your majesty not qualify him to talk about anything else other than writing. It's not like narrative designers communicate or know what the other professions do right? Nah they are probably clueless. Your ego is amusing.

The gamasutra article you linked was this one and that's written by a psycho logist (added a space due to over aggressive cuss filter) and gamer Jamie Madigan, NOT a verified game designer as you claim.  They have never worked at a game company.  They are an outsider looking in as an end user who wrote a handful of blogs for Gamasutra.

How about you link us your Gamasutra article then, if you are more of an expert than a psycho logist? Go ahead, I'll wait. 

Here's another one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6134042/ 

Nevermind, that person only has a PhD in neuroscience, what could he possibly know, right?

After all, it is well known that psycho logy has nothing to do with game design /s

Oh wait, is that a lead designer saying the exact opposite... again?

And you should take your own advice. I could be linking sources all day, by researches, designers, UX experts, you name it. Which you would know already, if you actually used Google and was willing to lean something about it.

 

[Ralathar44]

I certainly did, and if you don't remember, since I can't always post immediately after a reply and sometimes take days, feel free to go back to the previous pages and refresh your memory

I did exactly that before making my last comment.  You were equally vague in other comments, the time before you simply mentioned me with an @Ralathar44 and boiled down everything into a binary 2 sentence statement without any direct reference to anything I'd said.
 

At least I am not the one dedicating whole paragraphs for the sake of "ad hominem". But let me guess, you did not recognize yours. You see, ad hominem, no matter where they are directed annoy me only for one reason -- they often are used to cover a lack of actual arguments.

I disagreed and supported my disagreements with links and facts to support why I believed statements were wrong.  I disproved your sources as authorities.  I asked for clarification and asked for context.  You threw out things like "Unfounded personal vanity" and even now you're still attempting this character assassination and your defense is "at least I" which is a "I'm doing bad but they are doing worse" approach.

I do I agree with your lack of arguments statement though and since you are fully admitting that you are committing ad hominem that statement applies to you.  You're making self defeating arguments.
 

So since he wasn't a "main" or "lead" designer and just a plain writer/designer, after working in a creative role inside the industry for years, doesn't your majesty not qualify him to talk about anything else other than writing. It's not like narrative designers communicate or know what the other professions do right? Nah they are probably clueless.

You used them as an appeal to authority painting them as an authority on design.  They are not.  They are an authority as a writer of narrative games.  Yes, if you want to be an expert or an authority as a designer then you need to have designed multiple viable successful products as a main or lead designer.  If we lower the bar to the level they are at then basically half of steam greenlight is now an authority on design.

And again, as mentioned, Narrative games with almost no gameplay work under different rules than Gameplay oriented games with almost no narrative.  The same way a horror writer cannot necessarily write a comedy because they require different things someone who can create immersion in a game with almost no gameplay cannot necessarily create immersion in a game with almost all gameplay.  So that's two major stumbling blocks. 

They need to be a accredited main/lead designer or a major game (doesn't have to be AAA but cannot be some unknown indie game of questionable quality) and they need to have done so in a game that at the very least has significant amounts of gameplay.
 

Your ego is amusing.

Yet more direct attacks.
 

Here's another one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6134042/ 

Nevermind, that person only has a PhD in neuroscience, what could he possibly know, right?

Not he, they.  Lazaros Michailidis, Emili Balaguer-Ballester, and Xun He  3 people created that study.  You didn't even bother to get that detail right and yet you're claiming what degrees someone has.  Similarly the study doesn't say what you think, this is what happens when you just skim and link stuff instead of properly reading and understanding it.  You can post all the links you want, but with that level of reading/verification it's just a gish gallop.

The study is about whether flow or immersion are different concepts and actually have nothing to do with our conversation.  The results are inconclusive and heck they even undercut your argument by saying that immersion isn't even proven to exist in the brain:  "Although research seems to lack robust evidence for neural patterns observable in flow, immersion, and presence, these constructs may be sharing mutual neural correlates".  And it's referred to as "immersion theory" throughout because it's exactly that, theoretical. 

Those PhDs have the humility to say that they don't know and that they are just speculating.
 

Were you saying that only narrative is relevant to immersion? These people beg to differ. Are they qualified enough for you?

Literally never said anything like that.  You'll be interested in an immersion article from a 20+ year industry veteran below as far as to types of immersion.
 

How about you link us your Gamasutra article then, if you are more of an expert than a psycho logist? Go ahead, I'll wait. 

Sure, why not.  Here's a more nuanced and much more recent/contemporary commentary on immersion from Gamasutra, since you seem to be very fixated on Gamastura. 

The creator of this article is by Mata HaggisBurridge who has a 20+year history in the game's industry for game and narrative design and currently teaches as a professor of creative and entertainment games at Breda University of the Applied science in the Netherlands.  He is confirmed to be working on Dying Light 2 with Techland as a collab as well as having worked on Resident Evil Resistance, Aliens Versus Predator, Burnout Paradise, etc.

The first thing he does is tackle the muddy definitions of the idea of immersion and how different researchers and groups disagree on the definitions.  THIS is how you write an accurate piece that leverages your industry knowledge but also acknowledges that the entire concept of immersion is not agreed upon and not a fact. 
 

And you should take your own advice. I could be linking sources all day, by researches, designers, UX experts, you name it. Which you would know already, if you actually used Google and was willing to lean something about it.

I've done so the entire time.  I'm nuanced but consistent.  I also acknowledge that the concept of immersion is often in the eye of the beholder as there is no set definition either academic or otherwise.

 

[RestInPieces]

you're still attempting this character assassination and your defense is "at least I" which is a "I'm doing bad but they are doing worse" approach.

That's rather dramatic.

You used them as an appeal to authority painting them as an authority on design.  They are not.  They are an authority as a writer of narrative games.  Yes, if you want to be an expert or an authority as a designer then you need to have designed multiple viable successful products as a main or lead designer. If we lower the bar to the level they are at then basically half of steam greenlight is now an authority on design.

Already linked plenty of sources with experts, who say the exact same thing, so whether you believe that specific person is an authority or not, is irrelevant. It is no rocket science or some deeply profound game design principle -- in fact, it's pretty much common sense.  

And again, as mentioned, Narrative games with almost no gameplay work under different rules than Gameplay oriented games with almost no narrative.  The same way a horror writer cannot necessarily write a comedy because they require different things someone who can create immersion in a game with almost no gameplay cannot necessarily create immersion in a game with almost all gameplay.  So that's two major stumbling blocks.

As I said before, "immersion" AKA engagement level matters in every game (and most forms of MM art) is subject to, and is not limited to its written narrative. It extends to its world design, consistency/believability within/of its own universe, visual/spatial/auditory storytelling -- pretty much everything. I replied to your post initially to explain that when people refer to realism, obviously refer to the above. Different genres having different rules merely changes each aspect's weight on immersion.

Not he, they.  Lazaros Michailidis, Emili Balaguer-Ballester, and Xun He  3 people created that study.  You didn't even bother to get that detail right and yet you're claiming what degrees someone has.  Similarly the study doesn't say what you think, this is what happens when you just skim and link stuff instead of properly reading and understanding it.  You can post all the links you want, but with that level of reading/verification it's just a gish gallop.

The study is about whether flow or immersion are different concepts and actually have nothing to do with our conversation.  The results are inconclusive and heck they even undercut your argument by saying that immersion isn't even proven to exist in the brain:  "Although research seems to lack robust evidence for neural patterns observable in flow, immersion, and presence, these constructs may be sharing mutual neural correlates".  And it's referred to as "immersion theory" throughout because it's exactly that, theoretical. 

/facepalm -- the article states that literally in the title, so even if I had just "skimmed" it, it's impossible not to notice. Nice try though. It is also extremely relevant to our discussion. I linked that to you because it explains in depth what immersion is, so that you can understand why it's important in any virtual world and by extension in 7DTD.  And by "he" I was referring to Balaguer because he has the most publications since you seem so concerned about "not lowering the bar" when it comes to authorities. Also what you quoted doesn't even say that "it isn't proven to exist in the brain", but that these conditions share common factors. 

Sure, why not.  Here's a more nuanced and much more recent/contemporary commentary on immersion from Gamasutra, since you seem to be very fixated on Gamastura. 

The first thing he does is tackle the muddy definitions of the idea of immersion and how different researchers and groups disagree on the definitions.  THIS is how you write an accurate piece that leverages your industry knowledge but also acknowledges that the entire concept of immersion is not agreed upon and not a fact. 

Yes, I've read that too. Apologies for not taking the time to link you the entire internet archive on immersion, but sincere props for actually looking it up yourself. These categories are pretty well put imo and further prove the point of how every game aspect contributes to immersion. Which is why I strongly disagreed with the following in the first place:

TLD delivers on story, not gameplay.  7DTD doesn't have that, it's a game @%$*#! game you play for the mechanics.  Not the immersion, not the story, the gameplay. 

He also doesn't say that "it's not a fact" -- it obviously exists otherwise none would even write about it -- he just says that the word immersion is ambiguous without context and that perspective can vary, which is true for pretty much everything in game design. I often hear people mocking the word "immersion", thinking it's shenanigans or a made-up word created for complaining in decadent internet forums, but as the article says, it is arguably one of the most important selling points of your average game, whether that is an FPS shooter or an adventure game.

I've done so the entire time.  I'm nuanced but consistent.  I also acknowledge that the concept of immersion is often in the eye of the beholder as there is no set definition either academic or otherwise.

It may be subjective up to a point, but it's not something abstract and we know what contributes to it. After all, all the beholders are humans in this case.

 

[Ralathar44]

@RestInPieces
Now I think we've grandstanded enough  .  Let's return the forum back to everybody else haha .  Everyone can make up their minds based on how they feel as always.  The folks who thought immersion was a problem before will almost certainly continue to do so and vice versa is likely also true.  We may disagree but I still hope you have a good weekend .

 

[RestInPieces]

@RestInPieces
Now I think we've grandstanded enough  .  Let's return the forum back to everybody else haha .  Everyone can make up their minds based on how they feel as always.  The folks who thought immersion was a problem before will almost certainly continue to do so and vice versa is likely also true.  We may disagree but I still hope you have a good weekend .

Yeah indeed we have  It's not that our views are radically different anyway. Same to you mate.

 

[uselessjunkaccount]

Then the question is why would anyone ever want to re-seal those boxes? As I've noted, there's no reason to do that

Maybe they wanted to keep the dangerous things away from their children? Or maybe to foil opportunistic looters who generally just take what's out in the open. Maybe they were all packed up to move somewhere more safe but the situation grew too dire too fast and they left the less useful things behind. They could have gotten new supplies but kept the old ones in the boxes the new ones came in, if there were zombies you probably wouldn't throw such things away and would want to keep them safe.

 

[Roland]

Good news for @Ralathar44 and @RestInPieces!

Psychology

Psychology

Psychology

I fixed it!

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Good news for @Ralathar44 and @RestInPieces!

Psychology

Psychology

Psychology

I fixed it!

Thank god! I was feeling Gringo Guilt every time.

 

[Ralathar44]

Good news for @Ralathar44 and @RestInPieces!

Psychology

Psychology

Psychology

I fixed it!

As someone who grew up in a Hispanic heavy community honestly it was making me giggle that word was being censored .

 

[AtomicUs5000]

As someone who grew up in a Hispanic heavy community honestly it was making me giggle that word was being censored .

My wife is Mexican and I was telling her about it yesterday. She just laughed and walked away.

 

[Raestloz]

Maybe they wanted to keep the dangerous things away from their children?

If there is ever a time for children to learn how to fight, this is it

foil opportunistic looters who generally just take what's out in the open

if they're living there, they wouldn't let zombies in

Maybe they were all packed up to move somewhere more safe but the situation grew too dire too fast and they left the less useful things behind

The same boxes contain ammo, hardly less useful. If anything, ammo is one thing you don't want to seal due to its importance. You don't want to be caught with your pants down and your ammo in a box you need to spend a moment to break open

They could have gotten new supplies but kept the old ones in the boxes the new ones came in

See: ammo

 

[Ghostlight]

I am in agreement that TFP have screwed early game looting to make it pointless. Way to go. The correct solution would have been to make ammo much more scarce but let us loot a pistol or double barrel or even tier 1 rifle here and there, to make it worth looting. I like the flavour of finding an early gun but have scarce ammo so it's purely for emergencies and to be used sparingly. As it is....already losing the will to play A19.

 

[watzlp]

So its now been 14 days and out of 132 votes, it appears that A MAJORITY of people do agree with my original comment that Primitive Stone tools should not be in the loot pool. But now the question is, how should the Fun Pimps Deal with that?

 

[Solomon]

So its now been 14 days and out of 132 votes, it appears that A MAJORITY of people do agree with my original comment that Primitive Stone tools should not be in the loot pool. But now the question is, how should the Fun Pimps Deal with that?

In my opinion the best aproach would be to introduce this two ideas into the game:

POIs where these make sense: You are roaming in a forest, you see a tree felled down on the ground and a zombie/rotten body next to it. You kill/loot the rotten body and you are guranteed to get a stone tool from it and maybe some other beginner items. Museum POI, holding a big prehistoric event and there are lots of stone tools around.

More loot tiers for diversification: The main problem of stone tools is that they are generally useless and easy to make, so how about baking more tiers into it? Give us stone knifes of varying degree, primitive swords, makeshift tools, a tier what makes you want to get these specific tools.

 

[Xtrakicking]

So its now been 14 days and out of 132 votes, it appears that A MAJORITY of people do agree with my original comment that Primitive Stone tools should not be in the loot pool. But now the question is, how should the Fun Pimps Deal with that?

I don't think these polls will get very far, even if they see them. Currently, it seems like the stone age is going to stay as is with maybe a flintlock pistol and a makeshift musket rifle they said they were planning on adding, but not much else. We'll have to see what they do, I guess.

 

[Solomon]

I don't think these polls will get very far, even if they see them. Currently, it seems like the stone age is going to stay as is with maybe a flintlock pistol and a makeshift musket rifle they said they were planning on adding, but not much else. We'll have to see what they do, I guess.

Such a pity, i guess i have to play with gamestage artifically increased just so i can play a legit post-apocalyspe survival.

 

[uselessjunkaccount]

If there is ever a time for children to learn how to fight, this is it

if they're living there, they wouldn't let zombies in

The same boxes contain ammo, hardly less useful. If anything, ammo is one thing you don't want to seal due to its importance. You don't want to be caught with your pants down and your ammo in a box you need to spend a moment to break open

See: ammo

But you have to admit those are logical possibilities. As for kids learning how to fight, it makes sense to teach kids to use weapons much earlier but even in an apocalypse you aren't going to give guns to five year olds, let alone leave them out so they could have unsupervised access to them. A kid that small should just be taught to run away.

 

[Solomon]

But you have to admit those are logical possibilities. As for kids learning how to fight, it makes sense to teach kids to use weapons much earlier but even in an apocalypse you aren't going to give guns to five year olds, let alone leave them out so they could have unsupervised access to them. A kid that small should just be taught to run away.

Nope, you wont tell a 5 year old to run away they are slow and have almost zero chance of survival. You hide them in a wall, container, anything to keep them safe and hope that you can fend off the dead.