PC zombies dug straight down

[meganoth]

in blocks.xml search for "<block name="forge">". Change the values

<property name="HeatMapStrength" value="1.5"/>

<property name="HeatMapTime" value="1200"/>

<property name="HeatMapFrequency" value="25"/>

to something you like. Similar change to the "<block name="cementMixer">" and you will get practically no visits from screamers.

 

[RipClaw]

Is anyone here of the opinion players should be able to kill a full horde night of zombies with a simple staircase ending in a drop? If not, I consider it a great achievement to find even in this bug fix something to complain :smile-new:

The problem is not that things like the loop are fixed but that the destruction mode is apparently taken as the universal solution for all problems.

By the way, as a side effect, the zombies already go into destruction mode when the fall damage is caused by you shooting at them and throwing them backwards.

Also the changes for 17.2 have side effects on the behavior of the zombies. They now hit through the back wall of the closets they are standing in instead of waiting for you to enter the room.

 

[12pack]

something about zombies and digging...

ya know, i can really get the dogs digging, and the off-put nasty, rotting, less-than-dead folks following them into the hole to get to the life that beckons beyond...

yeah. that's all.

a statement.

looking forward to trying 18 as it will be.

sorry, i was late to the party.

 

[meganoth]

The problem is not that things like the loop are fixed but that the destruction mode is apparently taken as the universal solution for all problems.

I assume you hint at zombies that should be going in a straight line to the players position if the path is too long? Are you sure this isn't already implemented?

I remember when I had a drop pit horde base the zombies on horde night didn't dig down immediately (i.e. destroy mode) but ran to a block directly before the pit edge and then dug down. It must have been more than 40 blocks from the spawn point to my position at bedrock.

By the way, as a side effect, the zombies already go into destruction mode when the fall damage is caused by you shooting at them and throwing them backwards.

Not sure this is a bad thing. It is one more reason for stilt bases to need really strong fundaments.

Also the changes for 17.2 have side effects on the behavior of the zombies. They now hit through the back wall of the closets they are standing in instead of waiting for you to enter the room.

Correct me if I'm wrong but them attacking the cheapest blocks between you and them is NOT destruction mode. And therefore should have happened even in 17.0 and 17.1. If you have a specific counter example in mind, please post it.

Theoretically I see two ways this can happen: If you are more than 40 blocks of free path away from them OR less than 40 blocks and the wooden wall has less HP than the longer way plus closed doors between you and them.

Is the first case really common enough to be a problem? If yes, sleeper zombies could be optimised to not wake up if they don't find a path to you where only doors and free blocks count.

For the latter case players could probably make a bug report so that the back wall of such closets is changed to have more durability. Or unlocked doors and closets doors in pois could have only 25% of their HPs instead of 75% for their path calculation.

 

[RipClaw]

I assume you hint at zombies that should be going in a straight line to the players position if the path is too long? Are you sure this isn't already implemented?

I mean that in general. I haven't seen any changes in the patch notes that have a different solution to a pathfinding problem than the destruction mode.

For example, you could have let the zombie take an alternative route instead of trying to destroy the environment. Only if this doesn't succeed he goes into the destruction mode. With the destruction mode the developers make it easy for themselves. Just let the zombie hit a few blocks. Let's see what falls down.

When the destruction mode was announced Madmole showed on Twitter a picture of a destroyed hut after a horde night. There were only ruins left. I have little desire that my bases, in which I invest much work and time, look in the end like this.

If it's no longer possible to fight the zombies with anything other than pure firepower then I completely turn off the horde nights because that's too stupid for me. Then 7 Days to die is not much different than brain-dead shooters like World War Z.

I remember when I had a drop pit horde base the zombies on horde night didn't dig down immediately (i.e. destroy mode) but ran to a block directly before the pit edge and then dug down. It must have been more than 40 blocks from the spawn point to my position at bedrock.

The zombies had no alternative faster way. The decision seems to be a matter of time.

JaWoodle has illuminated the whole thing beautifully in a video:

Since this behavior that the zombie takes the shortcut instead of the long way contains a random component, it is difficult to reproduce the whole thing.

Actually, the developers who build the dungeons should notice that. Their elaborately designed ghost train ride is then sabotaged by the unpredictable behavior of the AI.

 

[Roland]

You can't sabotage a dungeon that was explicitly and knowingly built within a fully destructible environment. They are fully okay with zombies stupidly going through the back of a closet or losing interest in a long path and going into destruction mode. If you are scratching your head wondering why a zombie would do something so stupid...great. They are working properly. This is what everyone wanted: Dumber zombies.

You're Welcome! --TFP

 

[RipClaw]

You can't sabotage a dungeon that was explicitly and knowingly built within a fully destructible environment. They are fully okay with zombies stupidly going through the back of a closet or losing interest in a long path and going into destruction mode.

I strongly doubt that someone who has put a lot of time and effort into building a labyrinth is happy when all his work is thrown overboard because someone decided to use a shortcut to solve a problem.

If you are scratching your head wondering why a zombie would do something so stupid...great. They are working properly. This is what everyone wanted: Dumber zombies.
You're Welcome! --TFP

I don't wonder what the zombie is doing because I understand the logic behind the AI. What I've tried to make clear is that using the destruction mode as a universal solution has unintended side effects. I know this from software development when a quick simple solution to a problem suddenly has unintended side effects.

And they're not stupid zombies, they're random acting zombies. There is a difference.

A dumb zombie wouldn't hit weak points of a base. He wouldn't make a difference between a block of wood and a block of concrete. A dumb zombie would not dig his way past a pit in an underground base, but would simply fall into the pit.

Intelligence with zombies is no problem for me if I can predict their behavior. Zombies acting randomly is a problem for me because you can't predict random behavior. So you can't plan for it. And if you are reduced to using only firepower instead of using clever base design then the game is nothing more than a stupid shooter.

What people understand as dumb are the old zombies but they didn't have a destruction mode and didn't act randomly. What would be the worst that could happen to this game in terms of base building are completely unpredictable acting zombies with destruction mode and high block damage.

 

[Roland]

I strongly doubt that someone who has put a lot of time and effort into building a labyrinth is happy when all his work is thrown overboard because someone decided to use a shortcut to solve a problem.

Then you would be strongly wrong. I have the benefit of actually talking to the gentlemen involved rather than making assumptions and speculations and relying on doubts.

If they felt as you believe they should then every dungeon POI would be land claimed. But they are not because they don’t mind how the players choose to approach the POIs.

What people understand as dumb are the old zombies but they didn't have a destruction mode and didn't act randomly. What would be the worst that could happen to this game in terms of base building are completely unpredictable acting zombies with destruction mode and high block damage.

We’ve had this discussion before and will have to agree to disagree. Random and unpredictable behavior is much better than patterned and predictable behavior. I think your view is held by a small minority and I hope for the sake of the game the devs continue to come up with ways to make them unpredictable.

 

[RestInPieces]

I think your view is held by a small minority and I hope for the sake of the game the devs continue to come up with ways to make them unpredictable.

If I remember correctly, you had said in the past that faatal was working or wanted to work on zombie combat random behavior. Any word or details on that?

 

[RipClaw]

We’ve had this discussion before and will have to agree to disagree. Random and unpredictable behavior is much better than patterned and predictable behavior. I think your view is held by a small minority and I hope for the sake of the game the devs continue to come up with ways to make them unpredictable.

Everyone thinks of themselves as belonging to the majority. Both of us are no exception.

 

[Roland]

If I remember correctly, you had said in the past that faatal was working or wanted to work on zombie combat random behavior. Any word or details on that?

Nope. Faatal has a full plate heaped high and it’s all bugs and optimization stuff. I’m not sure exactly when he will return to looking at additional zombie AI issues.

 

[Roland]

Everyone thinks of themselves as belonging to the majority. Both of us are no exception.

Too true.

But.....my imagined majority also happens to contain faatal and that makes up the difference.

 

[FA_Q2]

We’ve had this discussion before and will have to agree to disagree. Random and unpredictable behavior is much better than patterned and predictable behavior. I think your view is held by a small minority and I hope for the sake of the game the devs continue to come up with ways to make them unpredictable.

It may be nitpicking here but I think this is false. One is not better than the other - the key is balancing them. Totally random is not fun because that means player preparation is irrelevant. Totally predictable is also not fun because there is no surprise or challenge. We need some predictability and some random behavior. For what it is worth, that seems to be the direction that TFP is going anyway - the AI has come very far even if it has some work left to do.

 

[RipClaw]

Is there a way to keep a large forge room 100% safe from zombies?

In A17 it is recommended to keep the forge room separate from the horde base. Then you can defend it well.

A few days ago I finished my new work base with a total of 12 forges and 4 concrete mixers. The base is surrounded by a 3 block deep and 2 block wide trench filled with one layer of iron spikes. Screamers fall into the trench and spear themselves at the spikes. Wandering hordes walk by the trench and do not cross it. The only way over the trench is a drawbridge. As long as I don't forget to close the drawbridge there are no problems.

An alternative solution would be to what Z-Nation uses in his current video series. He has placed his base on massive 3x3 reinforced concrete stilts surrounded by iron spikes. As entrance he uses a hatch elevator which the zombies can't use.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

In A17 it is recommended to keep the forge room separate from the horde base. Then you can defend it well.
A few days ago I finished my new work base with a total of 12 forges and 4 concrete mixers. The base is surrounded by a 3 block deep and 2 block wide trench filled with one layer of iron spikes. Screamers fall into the trench and spear themselves at the spikes. Wandering hordes walk by the trench and do not cross it. The only way over the trench is a drawbridge. As long as I don't forget to close the drawbridge there are no problems.

An alternative solution would be to what Z-Nation uses in his current video series. He has placed his base on massive 3x3 reinforced concrete stilts surrounded by iron spikes. As entrance he uses a hatch elevator which the zombies can't use.

That's what I used to do, but deep underground. Drop from the main base, then a tunnel several chunks over.

Put all the forges/mixers etc there. Running 24/7.

Topside was cleared, and I could see the screamers show up looking around. I could shoot them without much problem.

Mind you, there were many times I'd be returning to base to find unwanted visitors milling about. By the time I got off the bike,

they'd called in more salesclots. (which meant more bodies to clean up)

Can't do it underground anymore, but yes, trying to keep the heat map low where your main goodies are just makes sense.

Well, I'm gonna try a different type underground and see how that goes.

 

[FA_Q2]

That's what I used to do, but deep underground. Drop from the main base, then a tunnel several chunks over.Put all the forges/mixers etc there. Running 24/7.

Topside was cleared, and I could see the screamers show up looking around. I could shoot them without much problem.

Mind you, there were many times I'd be returning to base to find unwanted visitors milling about. By the time I got off the bike,

they'd called in more salesclots. (which meant more bodies to clean up)

Can't do it underground anymore, but yes, trying to keep the heat map low where your main goodies are just makes sense.

Well, I'm gonna try a different type underground and see how that goes.

Still works underground but you have to start at a decent height. Zeds will not dig over 40 blocks. If you start digging from a Z of 50 then a bedrock base will not attract diggers. I am less sure if they will mill about above or if they simply do not spawn at all. They will not harm your topside defenses though.

 

[Vic]

Still works underground but you have to start at a decent height. Zeds will not dig over 40 blocks. If you start digging from a Z of 50 then a bedrock base will not attract diggers. I am less sure if they will mill about above or if they simply do not spawn at all. They will not harm your topside defenses though.

That's true. My workshop area is 44 blocks down, at bedrock. I can run all 6 forges continuously and never had a digging zed.

The top of stacked forges is at 41.

Can't say with horde nights though. When we've had to bail we move along the bedrock mine shafts away from the shop area.

The shafts run for kilometers. I know they would dig to bedrock in A17.1 on horde nights, but moving along the shafts would

cause them to despawn and respawn.

 

[FA_Q2]

That's true. My workshop area is 44 blocks down, at bedrock. I can run all 6 forges continuously and never had a digging zed.The top of stacked forges is at 41.

Can't say with horde nights though. When we've had to bail we move along the bedrock mine shafts away from the shop area.

The shafts run for kilometers. I know they would dig to bedrock in A17.1 on horde nights, but moving along the shafts would

cause them to despawn and respawn.

Never tried to avoid horde night either so I do not know but I suspect that it would work then as well. It is known that leaving the initial spawn area of the horde will stop them from spawning all together (it does not move with the player anymore) so I suspect that they would either mill about on top in destruction mode or cease spawning.