PC Zombie AI and Base Building

[Guizmo]

For my fellow builders here, what do you think about A17 ?

In my opinion the game has been ruined in a base building point of view.

I used to love building fall traps, bunkers, towers, etc.... But now, on high Gamestage we are reducted to build some stupid maze on a really ugly base...

On early game you can have a classic base and it will hold on, but on high level only way to survive a bloodmoon is to trick the zombie AI, because of the horde bonus damage making any bloc destroyed in seconds.

I think that's a pitty. I can accept the AI like that, but then devs need to nerf the horde bonus damage so that we can go back to some classic base....

 

[Kalarro]

From what I read here and in reddit, most builders dislike a17, most combat oriented players like it.

 

[RipClaw]

At the moment there are ways to use the pathing against the zombies but in the future the behavior of the zombies will become more and more unpredictable according to the developer of the AI. The answer to this kind of thread will simply be to use more and more weapons and traps but in long run you will lose against such a horde like in all tower defense games and this is not very creative.

I loved in A15 and A16 that you could have success with a lot of different types of bases but now everyone builds ramps and mazes to counter the AI.

 

[Gazz]

At the moment there are ways to use the pathing against the zombies but in the future the behavior of the zombies will become more and more unpredictable according to the developer of the AI. The answer to this kind of thread will simply be to use more and more weapons and traps but in long run you will lose against such a horde like in all tower defense games and this is not very creative.

I have seen a live stream of an A17 insane / always run / permadeath game... on day 38 and they were definitely defending a base.

Why would the same thing be impossible on default settings?

Channeling the enemies into kill zones is an important aspect of tower defense games so that should not come as a surprise.

 

[Guizmo]

At the moment there are ways to use the pathing against the zombies but in the future the behavior of the zombies will become more and more unpredictable according to the developer of the AI. The answer to this kind of thread will simply be to use more and more weapons and traps but in long run you will lose against such a horde like in all tower defense games and this is not very creative.
I loved in A15 and A16 that you could have success with a lot of different types of bases but now everyone builds ramps and mazes to counter the AI.

People will always find bases to counter the zombie AI. The more they will increase it, the more our bases will become stupid and non sense.... (And I'm seing some really stupid ones on youtube right now, but damn efficient....)

This is a "Horde Crafting Survival Game", so what we expect is to build a base with walls, and traps, and zombies hitting those base in a reasonnable way, so that we can FIGHT them (with our weapons, I understand that it was too easy to just let your base do the job like in A16) but we don't want to play who's the smartest with some zombies....

 

[Royal Deluxe]

I have seen a live stream of an A17 insane / always run / permadeath game... on day 38 and they were definitely defending a base.
Why would the same thing be impossible on default settings?

Channeling the enemies into kill zones is an important aspect of tower defense games so that should not come as a surprise.

And i dont say that it is not possible, but after 327 Hours in A17 and many different approaches i still have no idea how to make a high building (means 95% of the building need the lower layers intact to collapse not) in A17

The COD part works flawless, but thats simply not my gamestyle and is allready boring after 2500+ kills in A17

 

[Guizmo]

I have seen a live stream of an A17 insane / always run / permadeath game... on day 38 and they were definitely defending a base.
Why would the same thing be impossible on default settings?

Channeling the enemies into kill zones is an important aspect of tower defense games so that should not come as a surprise.

First, if I play a tower defense game, I expect and end, I'm not playing 38 hours in a row for a tower defense game.

Then, day 38 yeah of course you can hold a base but I'm talking about much higher level...I'm not investing 200 hours in a game, making no mistake in my building, but still getting ripped off just because of zombie that destroy my whole base in seconds if I don't give them a path to me...

You can tell whatever you want, at some point, if you don't use the zombie AI, you are f****d

 

[OzHawkeye]

I have seen a live stream of an A17 insane / always run / permadeath game... on day 38 and they were definitely defending a base.
Why would the same thing be impossible on default settings?

Channeling the enemies into kill zones is an important aspect of tower defense games so that should not come as a surprise.

Personally Gazz, I think they're a little too smart - I'm sort of hoping that when A18 and Bandits hit, the Bandits have the current AI (or an even better one), and Zombies have a more pre-A17-like "dumb" AI.

I think Zombies should, more or less, walk blindly into static defenses, and it should the Bandits that you really have to worry about finding that one chink in the armor that lets them into your base.

 

[Kage848]

I love the idea of funneling the zeds into killzone choke points. I am still not sure I like the maze thing. Mazes seem cool but like some others have said it simply looks dumb.

And they all but destroyed my love, pole bases.

Jury is out for me in alpha 17 building so far.

 

[Guizmo]

I love the idea of funneling the zeds into killzone choke points. I am still not sure I like the maze thing. Mazes seem cool but like some others have said it simply looks dumb.
And they all but destroyed my love, pole bases.

Jury is out for me in alpha 17 building so far.

Hey Kage ! Love your videos, glad to find you here.

Watch this video

I think it's the most representative of "stupid bases" I talking about. And it's amazingly efficient

If this is building in A17 from now, I'll be out at some point.

 

[iejen]

Personally Gazz, I think they're a little too smart - I'm sort of hoping that when A18 and Bandits hit, the Bandits have the current AI (or an even better one), and Zombies have a more pre-A17-like "dumb" AI.
I think Zombies should, more or less, walk blindly into static defenses, and it should the Bandits that you really have to worry about finding that one chink in the armor that lets them into your base.

This.

 

[RipClaw]

I have seen a live stream of an A17 insane / always run / permadeath game... on day 38 and they were definitely defending a base.
Why would the same thing be impossible on default settings?

Channeling the enemies into kill zones is an important aspect of tower defense games so that should not come as a surprise.

I assume you meant day 28 or day 35. day 38 is not a horde day.

I talked about future versions of the AI in future versions of "7 Days to die" with a more unpredictable behavior than now. In this experimental the behavior is predicable but i heard that the developer of the AI said that this will change in the future. If a enemy is not behaving predicable it is hard to anticipate what he will do and the defense will purely be to create as much damage on then zombies as possible.

An by the way, the day 28 and day 35 hordes on A16 where pretty weak compared with a max gamestage horde and you can assume that is will be the same on A17. A base that will barely withstand a day 35 horde will crumble facing a max gamestage horde. Even on easier difficulty.

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Personally Gazz, I think they're a little too smart - I'm sort of hoping that when A18 and Bandits hit, the Bandits have the current AI (or an even better one), and Zombies have a more pre-A17-like "dumb" AI.
I think Zombies should, more or less, walk blindly into static defenses, and it should the Bandits that you really have to worry about finding that one chink in the armor that lets them into your base.

The AI is not the issue (its the current sollution)

The issue is that they drill through 8 block thick reinforced concrete walls in one night.

No matter how i build a scyscrapper, as long the scyscrapper is not completly massive the chance is given that the whole building collapses if they destroy the right ones. And as i said, i cant make every single pillar 4x4 blocks large (from bedrock on) thats 4000 Steelblocks per pillar, means 16000 Steelblocks only for the 4 Pillars that hold the building.

 

[OzHawkeye]

The AI is not the issue (its the current sollution)The issue is that they drill through 8 block thick reinforced concrete walls in one night.

No matter how i build a scyscrapper, as long the scryscrapper is not completly massive the chance is given that the whole building collapses if they destroy the right ones. And as i said, i cant make every single pillar 4x4 blocks large

Well, it is, in a way.

So the problem is two-fold I think:

1. Zombies get a "group" bonus. The more are nearby, the harder each one hits.

2. Zombies all have a slide-rule up their sleeves, and calculate the "path of least resistance" to you. That's the new AI element.

Now, the problem (I think anyway) is the interaction of these two elements - since the zombies (especially the BM horde) are all in, more or less the same rough location, and they all calculate a "path of least resistance" to you, and they all do it from the same data, then they all arrive at the same answer - hence a conga line of "group damage" suped up zombies attacking a single line into your base all hitting the same blocks, and hence, your base defenses are blasted away in no time at all.

So, I don't claim it's only an AI issue, the AI, or at least the consistently applied AI, is part of the problem.

Personally, I'm not a fan of block damage bonuses for zombies, nor of their ability to somehow magically detect the least blocked path to me - the first I'd do away with entirely, and the second I'd limit to Bandits once we get them in A18 (hopefully).

 

[Kage848]

Hey Kage ! Love your videos, glad to find you here.
Watch this video

I Didn't even have to watch the video to know what you were referring too. I tried this kinda exploit in my game, messed it up. It still did well. Realized it was boring and wont use it again lol. But that's the thing. We dont have to build like that.

 

[Gazz]

Personally Gazz, I think they're a little too smart - I'm sort of hoping that when A18 and Bandits hit, the Bandits have the current AI (or an even better one), and Zombies have a more pre-A17-like "dumb" AI.

Sure, but that again - is balancing. That takes more time.

Fataal got the zombie AI working, meaning they are capable of pathing, finding the player, and destroying blocks.

Making an AI dumber is the easiest thing you can possibly do.

And no, they have not gotten super strong vs blocks. They became capable of hitting them. Major difference.

 

[Kage848]

Sure, but that again - is balancing. That takes more time.
Fataal got the zombie AI working, meaning they are capable of pathing, finding the player, and destroying blocks.

Making an AI dumber is the easiest thing you can possibly do.

And no, they have not gotten super strong vs blocks. They became capable of hitting them. Major difference.

I could be wrong here but isent there a new zombie group damage bonus? Is that new for a17? If that's the case your last statement is not really true is it?

As far as the zeds getting smart. Let's get that gap/ramp exploit fixed before we make that claim lol. But they have gotten better, I agree.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Sure, but that again - is balancing. That takes more time.
Fataal got the zombie AI working, meaning they are capable of pathing, finding the player, and destroying blocks.

Making an AI dumber is the easiest thing you can possibly do.

And I'm really glad he did too!

I mean, the new AI was one of the big selling points for me in A17, and in many many ways, it still is. It's quite impressive to see how well they do it, because it means Bandits will be able to do it when we get them. I just hope when we do, the zombies go back to being more a threat of sheer numbers, and not an ability to "somehow" see their best way to me.

I'd categorize my threat wish-list like this:

1. Dumb zombies who may just well overwhelm me through sheet numbers, but otherwise are generally taken care of through (more or less) reasonably static defenses.

2. Smart bandits who may well find one tiny flaw in my base, and use it to ambush from inside my own base. What I like so much about Fataal's AI, is that I knew this one is a goer, since the Zombies are already doing it... hehe.

 

[Gazz]

I could be wrong here but isent there a new zombie group damage bonus? Is that new for a17? If that's the case your last statement is not really true is it?

Against lower tier materials it shouldn't be any stronger now and against higher tiers (reinforced concrete/steel) zombie damage has always been ridiculously low.

 

[Gazz]

1. Dumb zombies who may just well overwhelm me through sheet numbers, but otherwise are generally taken care of through (more or less) reasonably static defenses.

Actually, I would wish for different kinds of zombies.

We've seen cautious steps towards varied behaviors but this should get more pronounced as we get into more gameplay polish.

It may turn out different zombies are "good" at different things whereas now you really only have a difference of low/high damage or hit points. Not very interesting.