PC You can't say that this not purposefully punative.

Come on now. What is unreasonable about expecting you to tell the truth when you made an error in judgement? Nothing.
It is not a bug to enter in a line of code with a number for damage that is less for a weapon than it is for a tool and to do it consistently throughout the entire game. That is intentional.

It is not a bug to deceive the player into thinking about stealth mechanics when the mob trigger is obviously an area or "volume" trigger designed to put the enemy between the player and the exit. That is also intentional.

There is no debate. Every time you say those things are a bug, you are lying. What that tells me is that I can expect no satisfactory resolution in any case because you aren't even able to admit the actual problem.
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The problem with the damage you keep citing is that BASE entity damage isn't the ONLY consideration when choosing a weapon.

The steel pick does more base entity damage, yes, but it swings slower and it kills your stamina. You are better off battering the crap out of someone with a normal wooden club and being able to have a mobile fight (kiting is now the most important combat skill you will have) than using a pickaxe to swing slowly, stationary, and then not run.

It's not a bug. He - and you - are making an erroneous assumption that the base damage number > all and taking that completely out of context.

 
What I would recommend to any poi explorer is to forget jumps altogether. They trigger all zeds around ya. What I have been doing this alpha is carrying ~200 wood with me all the time. To make ramp frames and ladders. This way you can navigate the poi without waking most of the zombies. Even power attack axe on the door wont wake them up. But a small fall from the table to the floor would wake up whole house. Pickaxe does wake up zeds tho.

 
I like the idea of the "traps" and "surprise! zombies" in POIs. But they definitely have gone a little overboard on it. When a feral wight and 7 other ferals come running at you on day 8 (or even day 30 for that matter) good freaking luck. The feral wight alone would be scary and difficult enough without the 7 other zombies. Definitely needs to be toned back.

 
It's pretty easy to criticize the player, but how is this game going to be received by new players? Personally I don't know, but this will give us an idea: https://steamcharts.com/app/251570#6m
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Depends on the player. Some will love the surprise deaths, others will hate them, and some will be ambivalent about it.

IDK how much this particular person has played A17. Perhaps not much and so he's still relying on A16 'rules' in which bumrushing worked a lot better. Maybe that will work to A17's benefit with new players because they won't have old habits to unlearn.

 
Did you even watch the video? Or are you just here for damage control? Talking down to your customers is super classy though bro. I guess I am the fool because you already got my money. GG.


Exactly what items did he even have to restore his health? He didnt have any food. Bandages do not heal you so are utterly pointless. Stealth wouldn't work at all since the zombies are clearly on a trigger that's why they didn't fall down when he ran around the room in circles. They only came down when he stepped on the stage. He went in completely unprepared because it is day 8! He can't make ammo. He has neither the weapons or stats available to him to kill what he encountered in that room. You trying to say you would have lived through that room because you are just smarter is a joke. That building would eat you alive on day 8 just like anyone. The best weapon he had was a steel pick. Even though there are several actual weapons on his toolbar. If you didn't notice that was a Glowing Zombie and Feral Soldier.

Yea man I would have gone in with a tank and the dug up body of Patton and owned that room boy.
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I would have: gathered some cotton. made some cloth, you can do this the second you first spawn into the game, finding stones, feathers and wood for arrows is not hard, how does he have no food by day 8 is beyond me, by day 2 I usually have more food than I need and I never run out, same for water. Also i've taken out ferals in poi's on day 1, so yes, I would have lived thru it. They aren't that hard tbh. 1 or 2 anyway, 3 or more then we run into problems early game. If it was me, I'd have had them spawn then run like hell outside to get some distance, fighting 2 ferals in a room is not a smart move early game. Sleepers won't respawn in a17e unless you move over 30 blocks away from the poi. Been lots of times i've ran thru a poi to wake up all the zombies, then ran outside and let them come to me to clear it out all out once.

By day 8 he also should have been able to find a cooking pot, and with master chef rank 1, he could use those eggs from getting feathers and meat from animals to make bacon and eggs, which restore 36 or 38 max stam AND heal 18 health. I'm not a expert at 7dtd in anyway, but i'd never make the screw ups the one who made that video did. He just went in there way under prepared and paid for it. The game is not to blame for that, the player is.

Also radiated zombies, are no diffrent than normal ones stat wise, the only diff is they regen hp at a decent pace. At most they take 1 extra hit to kill for me. Depends on weapons avail at the time though. My go to is the fire axe or better a sledgehammer early game.

 
What I have a problem with is the sheer obviousness of forced difficulty.
I wont go into the dog salon, because I can assess the risk it might bring.

With that bar he died in... HOW are you supposed to know that there will be ferals dropping from the ceiling on day 8???

It is not a "fair" difficulty.

And while the player could be more prepared, dropping zombies from above is not in any way to be expected.

Good gamedesign is for the game to show you (kinda like with vaccines) "look this can happen" early on and then casually raising the threat.

But this Alpha it is just a bad Rocky quote:

"If he dies, he dies!"

Which is never a good idea for exploration-rpgs.
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I dunno man, the fact the loot was just sitting there in the open kinda screams "There is a trap here!" to me, especally in a17e.

 
He brought that on himself. I've been in that very room... the difference between me and him is that I was prepared to fight anything or find an exit immediately. If you aren't a problem solver and jump to complain at any sort of difficulty, maybe video games aren't for you.
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Exactly what I am saying, he went in completly unprepared thats his fault not the games fault. If I was that low on supplies i'd have stayed out of that kind of poi, as it'd probally be a death trap. Also, the better loot a poi has the more likely its going to be guarded by higher level zombies. The "Safest" Poi's to go into are old ones from a16, if its a new one from a17e, i'd prepare alot better before going in. If its a dungeon style poi you should expect some traps and such in them, you can usually tell if a poi is one of these before you even enter it.

 
I dunno man, the fact the loot was just sitting there in the open kinda screams "There is a trap here!" to me, especally in a17e.
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Anytime I see good loot boxes just sitting around now, my first instinct is to go "okay where are they going to come from?".

 
I myself find PoIs in A17 a bit overdone. Zombies don't really make good stealth enemies. Empyrion has similar trap-filled structures, but hidden turrets and trap doors make much more sense in a SciFi setting. You also don't have an option of disassembling an entire PoI without clearing it first.

 
You're seriously underestimating firearms in this game. The SMG is so much better than the slow and stamina-draining pickaxe, it's no comparison. Only downsides are noise and ammo. I specifically keep firearms on my tool belt for surprise situations like these, where the DPS of melee and bows are simply insufficient.
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Same, I always keep a Smg, Shotgun or even a pistol on my bar for those Oh crap! moments. I also make sure I have some ammo first as well. In one game I am on day 8, and I have over 600 pistol rounds 250 7.62mm and like 100 shotgun shells, all looted, I did not buy a single round off the trader. Rememeber, in a17e the headshot multi's aren't absurdly high like in a16, 4-5 body shots with a pistol to a normal zombies chest is enough to put most of them down on nomad diffculty. Less if you aim for head shots. In a panic situation I just aim for the safer body shots in a17e. Each shot has a chance to put them into a pain animation which gives the player a second or 2 of breathing room.

 
Some are still trying to play this like an A16 power fantasy with infinite stamina where zombies cannot even hit you as you run right through them.
I have watched several good players playing A17 on insane, killing zombies in melee or at range. What I would not see there is them charging in blindly without a way to run or without even bandages.

If you want to see some A17 insane / always run / permadeath... check out this crazy woman.
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I love when streamers try to play a17e like a16, its funny when they get destroyed because playing like its a16 just doesn't work, its bascally a new game now, the old stuff just doesn't work well anymore. For example I find wood spikes useless now in a17e, I'd much prefer barbed wire fences, for 2 reasons: 1: they don't break by zombies walking on them only if the hit them, and 2: it slows them down a ton and makes it easy to kill them even with melee or a bow. On nomad it takes multiple wood spikes to kill even the weakest zombie. Unlike a16 where 1 wood spike could easly kill 2-3 with how high there damage was then.

 
@OP

You are right!

You did purposely put yourself into situations that ended up penalizing you.

We can't deny that.

 
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I dunno man, the fact the loot was just sitting there in the open kinda screams "There is a trap here!" to me, especally in a17e.
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There is a difference tho.

Is there an inherent link between loot and hidden zombies?

Cause I got two guns out of cars... with ammo...

So while you might say "its obvious"

It is not, as there is no inherent link between the two.

What IS a link?

Sound (like a jukebox), a kitchen with open meat...

The dog salon having dogs inside them.

But zombies at loot is "forced" difficulty. They have no ingame reason to be there, except that the devs want to make the game harder.

This is bad and cheap gamedesign.

Good examples(A17):

Zombies behind locked/barricaded doors (they hide, but got infected, zombie)

You banging on a safe 300 times with a stoneaxe luring a wandering horde.

Hell even zombies in closets make a bit of sense (got infected, tried to hide, you made noise outside it woke up)

But ask yourself:

How did those zombies get up there? Maybe infected? Why are the floortiles so unstable? And why didn't they break earlier?

Yes you could try and find some sort of weird excuse im not saying you aren't creative. But it isn't instinctive. If I go in a police station I expect cops, if I go in a hospital nurses and guests, if I go into some radom 2person poi unboarded and unbroken I dont expect 15 zombies, deadly traps and a sleeping bear in the bedroom.

There should be a consistent world that is (mostly) predictable. But 5+ zombies in the walls or mines on top of cranes are not consistent with an apocalyptic world and is only there to fake difficulty.

 
I laughed so hard the first time I walked on one of those.
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Me too, I was like "well thats new", respawned and learned to pay more attention before I jump up on things, especally in the dungeon style poi's.

 
The one thing TFP did wrong is not have in game warning on how some POI are very advanced and should not be attempted in SP at early level. They mentioned it on forums here that this was case, but most people don't read forums as much I I or some others do, so might not of got that info. Might be a good little thing to add to the text somewhere on starter quest on how some places might have the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!

 
well, partiallyroyal (the maker of the vid) isnt really known to be a skilled player. He thinks he is a pro and have a very loyal fanbase where OP obviously is a member. I used to check him out quite some time back, but totally stopped when he declared he was gomg to be top 10 pubg/fortnite player in the world. Not much happend there as expected. But still he has, a probably very young, loyal fanbase.

 
There is a difference tho.Is there an inherent link between loot and hidden zombies?

Cause I got two guns out of cars... with ammo...

So while you might say "its obvious"

It is not, as there is no inherent link between the two.

What IS a link?

Sound (like a jukebox), a kitchen with open meat...

The dog salon having dogs inside them.

But zombies at loot is "forced" difficulty. They have no ingame reason to be there, except that the devs want to make the game harder.

This is bad and cheap gamedesign.
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This could just be my general playing style all together, but (with a few exceptions) I expect high value targets to have higher risks in almost any game. A stage full of Shotgun Messiah crates with no zombies around and no zombie gauntlet preceding it does kinda scream trap. Yes, you can pick up guns in other places, but I've yet to find an 'average' loot container give me the same quantity guns and ammo as a SM crate except for gun safes which are much more difficult to get into. If a player hasn't yet learned the markers of dungeon POIs, then they might not recognize it, but A17 in general doesn't promote run in and whack everything dead playstyle in the early stages either.

As far as believability as to where the zombies/traps are, that, I think is up to the mind of the player. Perhaps, in that POI, the military tried to make a staging (haha) area and it got overrun/was in threat of being overrun. So, the few survivors left scrambled up ropes/debris, into the ceiling to hide, but one of them was already bitten. The ropes/debris were long since knocked over by them or some wandering zeds, but up above the now zombified survivors sleep until the meals on legs comes charging in, thinking they've found the motherload.

That said, I do think spawns in POIs need tuning (I don't see why this POI should have more dangerous zombies than say, an actual SM store that has just about as many crates if not more). Maybe TFPs want to keep the dungeons as purely option challenges. If that's the case, then they probably need to be less frequent and more obvious.

Despite all of that, the first time the player died might be an understandable surprise. The second time though, it definitely shouldn't have been.

 
Ktr:

Yes. YOU as a player expect it, either because you have played this or similar games a lot or you are generally more cautious...

But there is no in-game reason for loot to attract zombies.

They are no predator!

They should be where:

They lived/died, there is food/smell, or on the move looking for pray.

Remember that old poi, that one with the small barricaded settlement in it?

That is the best poi (worldbuilding wise) in the entire game.

There are loads of zombies (they tried to hide in there before getting infected) the loot is good, because they stached it and even the landmine makes sense.

If you have played skyrim:

You enter a dungeon where everything is blooming with life. Would you expect a bad creature (hargraven, necromancer...) or a lifegiving spriggan in there, even though they are easier to kill?

Not everything has to be about challenging the player. Sometimes, consistent world building is more important.

 
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