PC Will there be new paints in the future?

Scottychaos

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One of my favorite aspects of 7dtd is the ability to get creative with our bases by using paints. I made a mansion in a dedicated server I play on and wanted to paint, but there's a lackluster selection of paint options. Is it possible to add more paint options in the future?

 
One of my favorite aspects of 7dtd is the ability to get creative with our bases by using paints. I made a mansion in a dedicated server I play on and wanted to paint, but there's a lackluster selection of paint options. Is it possible to add more paint options in the future?
I think most of us would appreciate having more paint options.  Since they removed a bunch of options, there is plenty of room for them to add more.  Although you're playing on a server and have to use whatever mods they use, there is a mod that adds a lot of nice paint options called Pyro Paints in case you're interested.  You could use it in a solo game or maybe talk the server owner into adding it.

 
I think most of us would appreciate having more paint options.  Since they removed a bunch of options, there is plenty of room for them to add more.  Although you're playing on a server and have to use whatever mods they use, there is a mod that adds a lot of nice paint options called Pyro Paints in case you're interested.  You could use it in a solo game or maybe talk the server owner into adding it.
That's actually not a bad idea! I didn't even know such a mod existed! Thanks for telling me!

What options were removed?

 
That's actually not a bad idea! I didn't even know such a mod existed! Thanks for telling me!

What options were removed?
They removed a bunch of miscellaneous stuff... things like paint that someone might put on a crate to show that it was medical or weapon or whatever.  Useful for those who wanted a visual representation of what was in the crate, but not useful for decorating.  I don't really remember everything that was removed.

 
What options were removed?


Many of the removed textures can be found on objects in the game. You can't paint a block to look like an over door, for instance, anymore.

My suspicion is that some of the consoles can't handle more textures as perhaps some texture memory limit, but I don't really know. The modlet that Riamus mentioned suggests the issue can be addressed on a PC. If my suspicion is correct then you get some complications. POI creators would have to be diligent not to use any new textures since if they want their POIs to work on all platforms. Similarly, a server to allow consoles couldn't expand on the textures either.

But that's all conjecture on my part. I'm not in a position to know the real engineering challenges TFP faces.

 
The modlet that Riamus mentioned suggests the issue can be addressed on a PC. If my suspicion is correct then you get some complications. POI creators would have to be diligent not to use any new textures since if they want their POIs to work on all platforms. Similarly, a server to allow consoles couldn't expand on the textures either.
Any prefabs that use custom textures load just fine (on PC anyway) but the custom texture will instead be the default texture of the painted block instead. Example: brick blocks will appear as brick instead of the custom texture.

 
Any prefabs that use custom textures load just fine (on PC anyway) but the custom texture will instead be the default texture of the painted block instead. Example: brick blocks will appear as brick instead of the custom texture.
Actually, the person I play the game with forgot to add that mod and everything that was painted with those paints showed as solid black for them.  I would have expected it to be the default, but it seems that it must fails to load the paint and so used a texture not found error color instead.

 
Any prefabs that use custom textures load just fine (on PC anyway) but the custom texture will instead be the default texture of the painted block instead. Example: brick blocks will appear as brick instead of the custom texture.


and...

Actually, the person I play the game with forgot to add that mod and everything that was painted with those paints showed as solid black for them.  I would have expected it to be the default, but it seems that it must fails to load the paint and so used a texture not found error color instead.


Appearance issues aside, I'm happy it doesn't throw an exception on PC if a texture is not found. That bodes well for console too if they get to play on PC servers.

 
Actually, the person I play the game with forgot to add that mod and everything that was painted with those paints showed as solid black for them.  I would have expected it to be the default, but it seems that it must fails to load the paint and so used a texture not found error color instead.
I guess its different on a server then, compared to single player/host

 
What we need is the evolution of the paint textures similar to that of the building blocks.

Previously you were limited in the shape types you could have, now you've got 100s available to you. They never needed to add more, they just needed to provide access to shapes that already existed in the game. I mean they did add some extra shapes, but that (I presume) was to match the new PoIs.

So just do that, if there is a texture being used by an item in the game, allow us to apply that as paint. I'm not asking for the things that can be painted to increase, just the palette/styles that are available.

While we are talking aesthetics, could I also say the vanilla game is absolutely crying out for some sort of light modification that allows you to set the colour and intensity of the light. For me, that goes hand in hand to other "interior design".

 
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I guess its different on a server then, compared to single player/host
Maybe.  I only play P2P.  I never use a server.

What we need is the evolution of the paint textures similar to that of the building blocks.

Previously you were limited in the shape types you could have, now you've got 100s available to you. They never needed to add more, they just needed to provide access to shapes that already existed in the game. I mean they did add some extra shapes, but that (I presume) was to match the new PoIs.

So just do that, if there is a texture being used by an item in the game, allow us to apply that as paint. I'm not asking for the things that can be painted to increase, just the palette/styles that are available.

While we are talking aesthetics, could I also say the vanilla game is absolutely crying out for some sort of light modification that allows you to set the colour and intensity of the light. For me, that goes hand in hand to other "interior design".
Well, they say that it's a memory issue to add more paints than what they had previously, so it isn't likely they'll go beyond that number.  We basically have every paint in the game already.  Anything that's in a POI is available because in order to be used in a POI, they need to be available.  We don't have things like terrain textures, but that's not really necessary.

Lighting probably won't change, though I would like to see it as well.  Lighting is a huge performance problem and POI designers have to really pay attention to how they do lighting to avoid serious FPS drops.  If allowed in a game, players wouldn't set it up well and you'd quickly grind a game down to very low FPS.  If it's only single player, you can adjust things to fix it, but if it's multiplayer, you know there will be many people who just feel like being idiots and purposely cause problems with lighting.  So it's better to not allow it.  Or at the very least, make it an option so that a server can disable the ability and a single player or a P2P group that can be trusted can enable it.

 
While we are talking aesthetics, could I also say the vanilla game is absolutely crying out for some sort of light modification that allows you to set the colour and intensity of the light. For me, that goes hand in hand to other "interior design".


I want to think this would be easy since that functionality exists in the Prefab Editor already.

It does come with a potential problem, however, and that is overlapping light sources and the associated performance that I think relates to shadows. Players generally want a very well lit place and they can drive the game into poor performance doing so. In POI design we have to take care not to go crazy with light sources.

 
So just do that, if there is a texture being used by an item in the game, allow us to apply that as paint. I'm not asking for the things that can be painted to increase, just the palette/styles that are available.


When I was a software engineer I would have bosses, marketing professionals, and so forth suggest that something was easy. I would have to remind them that just because it was easy to express an idea verbally didn't mean it was easy, or possible, to implement. ("Hey, let's put a man on Jupiter.")

In this case, I don't know enough about the underlying situation to provide insight as to why it might be hard or impossible. The textures we talk of seem to be part of a palette with some memory maximum. (Maybe that's a low-end video card limit?) Putting "native" textures on objects doesn't seem to involve that palette. Presumably those textures on objects could be applied to other objects making for an infinite palette, but there's bound to be some complication here. For instance, there may not be a good way to reach down into all those object assets and universally address each texture to let it be applied to any block. I regret I can only speculate here. There are certainly people in this community who have looked deeper into this.

What I can be certain of is that TFP's developers aren't stupid and they're also going to work on things in some order of priority established by their teams/management.

 
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Well, they say that it's a memory issue to add more paints than what they had previously, so it isn't likely they'll go beyond that number.  We basically have every paint in the game already.  Anything that's in a POI is available because in order to be used in a POI, they need to be available.  We don't have things like terrain textures, but that's not really necessary.


Bit confused by that comment, as it's obvious we don't so I guess I must be misunderstanding what you mean by that.

In terms of memory concerns, the problem being none of us have visibility over the code base, and have no idea of the actual restrictions and/or whether the current use of that "space" is efficient or not.

Lighting probably won't change, though I would like to see it as well.  Lighting is a huge performance problem and POI designers have to really pay attention to how they do lighting to avoid serious FPS drops. 


There is no performance hit between lowering light intensity and/or colour. None. There are mods out there that already do this, and they've existed since A17 days. Lighting isn't baked in, it's dynamic so you will always get a hit to the FPS from lighting, that's already factored into the performance. If you were to put 100 light sources I'm guessing (not exactly sure how the rendering pipeline works in Unity) that would increase FPS, changing one light source from 100% intensity to 50% should have little noticeable difference. If that was the case then the game would differently at different times of the day.

What I don't get is that TFP seem to be overlooking the "creative element" of the game. Look at Minecraft, it literally has millions watching people build stuff, like Lego, in creative mode and never mining or crafting. Adding in things like variable light colour and intensity would (imo) add considerable aesthetic value.

In short, I feel there is an opportunity to push 7Days creative to the Minecraft lot, and I think enough of them would find the granularity of the physical design would keep them interested.

It does come with a potential problem, however, and that is overlapping light sources and the associated performance that I think relates to shadows. Players generally want a very well lit place and they can drive the game into poor performance doing so. In POI design we have to take care not to go crazy with light sources.


None of 7Days lighting is pre-baked, it as to be dynamic, simply due to it's voxel nature. Overlapping light sources, which you highlight, are already part of the game, they are already dynamically generated.

Like I said above, there is no FPS hit on providing lighting that is either lower in intensity or coloured. There are numerous mods out there that do this with no overhead.
 

When I was a software engineer I would have bosses, marketing professionals, and so forth suggest that something was easy. I would have to remind them that just because it was easy to express an idea verbally didn't mean it was easy, or possible, to implement. ("Hey, let's put a man on Jupiter.")


That's not the situation at all, here. We are not mindless and stupid middle management trying to impress some annoying client. We are, experienced players of the game and in many cases developers ourselves.

What I can be certain of is that TFP's developers aren't stupid and they're also going to work on things in some order of priority established by their teams/management.


I feel "stupid" is an unnecessary and inflammatory word. I've been a dev for over 40 years (no, really!) and "stupidity" very rarely factors into this sort of stuff. I have created some excellent code in the past, but equally I've made decisions that nobody would call "stupid" but have had a noticeable effect on future development and restricted expansion.

Nobody is questioning the mental acuity of the developers.

 
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So just do that, if there is a texture being used by an item in the game, allow us to apply that as paint.
What textures are you referring to; what can't we use? I mean, sure, we can't paint our blocks with rifle textures, but that wouldn't exactly look great.. :)

 
feel "stupid" is an unnecessary and inflammatory word. I've been a dev for over 40 years (no, really!) and "stupidity" very rarely factors into this sort of stuff. I have created some excellent code in the past, but equally I've made decisions that nobody would call "stupid" but have had a noticeable effect on future development and restricted expansion.

Nobody is questioning the mental acuity of the developers.


My apologies then. The way I interpreted your argument was "this is so obvious that there's no reason not to do it, so they must be stupid." If I misinterpreted a subtlety in your message then I am sorry.

That's not the situation at all, here. We are not mindless and stupid middle management trying to impress some annoying client. We are, experienced players of the game and in many cases developers ourselves.


Similarly, I wouldn't say "stupid" here. I would say anyone not looking at the code (including myself) would be ignorant of all the factors at play. Experienced players translates to customers, which is as distant as middle management from the source, in my opinion.

 
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Bit confused by that comment, as it's obvious we don't so I guess I must be misunderstanding what you mean by that.

In terms of memory concerns, the problem being none of us have visibility over the code base, and have no idea of the actual restrictions and/or whether the current use of that "space" is efficient or not.

There is no performance hit between lowering light intensity and/or colour. None. There are mods out there that already do this, and they've existed since A17 days. Lighting isn't baked in, it's dynamic so you will always get a hit to the FPS from lighting, that's already factored into the performance. If you were to put 100 light sources I'm guessing (not exactly sure how the rendering pipeline works in Unity) that would increase FPS, changing one light source from 100% intensity to 50% should have little noticeable difference. If that was the case then the game would differently at different times of the day.

What I don't get is that TFP seem to be overlooking the "creative element" of the game. Look at Minecraft, it literally has millions watching people build stuff, like Lego, in creative mode and never mining or crafting. Adding in things like variable light colour and intensity would (imo) add considerable aesthetic value.

In short, I feel there is an opportunity to push 7Days creative to the Minecraft lot, and I think enough of them would find the granularity of the physical design would keep them interested.
faatal has commented on this in the past.  In short, limiting paints is due to memory usage.  There is a color "file" (I forget the correct term for it) that is used and adding more than they had in A21 before they removed some paints would require adding a new "file", doubling the memory used, even if only one paint was added.  Now, I had said at the time that I thought there would be a way to avoid that being a problem, but that is what they have said.  Whether or not there is a way to get around that or do it better, that is the reason they have given for it and so it's not likely that they'll add more than what was in A21.  However, with the ones removed, there should be no problem adding more to fill in the gaps that are left.

When I was referring to paints, I was referring specifically to paints you would use on a building/base.  I had given an example of what isn't included (terrain), and there are other textures not included (theFlu mentioned rifle/weapon textures).  These aren't things that would have any real value for painting walls and floors.  And yes, there are some objects that have textures (appliances, etc.), but those also aren't textures that really add any value to painting a base.  There were a few that were available before 1.0 because there weren't objects that had the textures baked in, but once they fixed that (e.g. the beer cooler) by adding objects that have the texture baked into them so they don't need a paint or to use up part of the memory block needed for paints, they removed them.  Actual paints (anything used in POI) are all available.  If there are any that are not available, please show some examples.  And AFAIK, you can't just reference textures that are baked into objects, so they'd need to use up part of the memory "file" if they wanted to make them available for use.  Personally, the last thing I'd want is to once again waste paint space for things like a beer cooler paint that isn't of any real use since we now have an actual beer cooler object.  I'd rather paints that are good for walls and floors and siding and such.

As far as lighting goes, ask any veteran POI designer and they'll tell you how much lighting impacts things and how they have to work hard to design their lighting to avoid problems.  Changing colors wouldn't have any effect, I'm sure... but intensity can.  You mention only lowering intensity, but keep in mind that if you allow lowering it, you also need to allow increasing it.  Not all lighting that we can craft is at full intensity.  I think only one is (the bare lightbulb), though I haven't looked into it and am just basing that on observation while playing the game.  Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that lighting will affect everyone.  I've never personally had issue with lighting, even when I go crazy with lighting.  However, it is definitely a known problem for some people and TFP isn't likely to want to add something that would potentially cause a portion of their players to have problems.  It's one thing for it to be a mod, where people can choose whether or not to use it.  It's something else to have it built in.  As I said, I think they should be able to just make it an option so that people who want to use it can and those who have problems can avoid it, but I don't really expect them to do so.  And I agree that having the options for lighting would be great.  I'm just pointing out the potential problems associated with it and why it's unlikely they'd add the ability to adjust lights.

I really doubt lighting options would draw in additional Minecraft players.  That would be nice to have, but it's hardly something that is all that exciting or interesting.  If someone isn't interested in the game, adding lighting won't change that.  More building options might, but lighting is something that is more like a bonus than something that would actually change someone's mind about the game.

 
What textures are you referring to; what can't we use? I mean, sure, we can't paint our blocks with rifle textures, but that wouldn't exactly look great.. :)


Any texture in the game that isn't part of the available selection. Look at any object in the game, it needs a texture, not every texture is available. Take the gas barrels for example, the red ones, they are simple cylindrical shapes with a texture. That texture isn't available to you as a paint, but you can craft a flaming barrel as an object that has that texture. There are annoyances too, like in 1.0 they removed the beverage cooler you could craft, they created a new multi shape item called kitchen appliances but they don't include the cooler. The only way to create a cooler now is to create a box, and paint it with that texture, yet that texture isn't available to you despite beverage coolers being all over the place.

Even just a proper range of colours, we don't have that. You want a pure white? Can't have it, you can have an adobe one, yet lots of surfaces are pure white, a colour you can see but can't paint.

My apologies then. The way I interpreted your argument was "this is so obvious that there's no reason not to do it, so they must be stupid." If I misinterpreted a subtlety in your message then I am sorry.


You definitely misinterpreted my comment, and what is slightly worrying is that you chose the definition where I was actively insulting the development team. If you are unsure, just ask, don't drop to an assumption. Especially when that assumption paints me in a such bad light.

However, apology accepted. :)

As a dev, and a gamer, I am very keen not to throw pointless and emotive ad-hominem into a discussion, they achieve nothing.

faatal has commented on this in the past.  In short, limiting paints is due to memory usage. 


It's a design decision that has placed restrictions. Without full visibility of the codebase and without a better understanding of how Unity's memory management I can only speak in nebulous terms, but it does seem little short sighted to add in so few textures considering the nature of the game. I am guessing there was just a trade off at a some point and the lower priority was the paint textures. I would like to think there will be wiggle room found to expand that selection. Memory may be a concern but from an (again) a a nebulous viewpoint, if you are hitting the limits of available memory these days then that's probably a hint that you need to look at memory management.

In terms of "missing textures", I gave an example in the reply to @zztong

As far as lighting goes, ask any veteran POI designer and they'll tell you how much lighting impacts things and how they have to work hard to design their lighting to avoid problems.  Changing colors wouldn't have any effect, I'm sure... but intensity can.  You mention only lowering intensity, but keep in mind that if you allow lowering it, you also need to allow increasing it.  Not all lighting that we can craft is at full intensity.  I think only one is (the bare lightbulb), though I haven't looked into it and am just basing that on observation while playing the game.  Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that lighting will affect everyone.  I've never personally had issue with lighting, even when I go crazy with lighting.  However, it is definitely a known problem for some people and TFP isn't likely to want to add something that would potentially cause a portion of their players to have problems.  It's one thing for it to be a mod, where people can choose whether or not to use it.  It's something else to have it built in.  As I said, I think they should be able to just make it an option so that people who want to use it can and those who have problems can avoid it, but I don't really expect them to do so.  And I agree that having the options for lighting would be great.  I'm just pointing out the potential problems associated with it and why it's unlikely they'd add the ability to adjust lights.


If I read between the lines you are saying we can't change the intensity because it would cause frame issues, yet we both know the light is dynamic, and light is constantly being calculated. It's all rolled into the same pipeline. If you render a room all blocks will need to have their light calculated, whether there is low light, normal light or intense light. At the extreme levels, sure, you could run into an issue where light is casting over 30 blocks or so, but it would be easy enough to put an upper limit on that.

A lot of this will be down to whether TFP have used Unity lighting or built their own bespoke code to handle it, you'd hope that it's the former although when the game was first released Unity was in a very different state. However if it is the in built routines then they should not be having issues rendering the sort of light levels we see in 7Days.

If you are arguing that the player should be stopped from being creative because the engine has limits, then that's not a stance I agree with.

Even if we take the intensity of the light out the equation, why no coloured lights? There is no argument that frame loss happens when a blue light is being shown but not when an orange one is. The simple ability to change light colour would make a dramatic difference to the "vibe" of people's builds.

I really doubt lighting options would draw in additional Minecraft players.  That would be nice to have, but it's hardly something that is all that exciting or interesting.  If someone isn't interested in the game, adding lighting won't change that.  More building options might, but lighting is something that is more like a bonus than something that would actually change someone's mind about the game.


How much creative do you do? I think you'll find many who lean into it, despite playing in a survival (ie: non-creative) mode. Currently we have 3 main light sources, candles, torches, electrical lights. The latter has (imo) really poor aesthetics, the only way I ever use electrical lights is when they are embedded into the structure to take some of that "edge" off. My bases at present either look far too bright or far too dull, every single time.

That said, the reason I mention it is less to do with "better lights, more creative types", and more the idea that there seems to be a fairly large community that TFP have not tapped into. Have you ever seen a 7Days creative stream? I've not, I'm sure there are some, but nowhere near the numbers that stream survival. The core element of creative is almost identical between the games, yet 7Days has so much more detail that it should bring in those frustrated with the way minecraft 1x1 blocks looks so poor (unless you literally slow the thing down to a crawl with shaders/texture packs). If you want to look at how bad decisions made during development impact future expansion then it's the lighting/textures in Minecraft. So much so they literally had to rebuild it from scratch (creating the flawed Bedrock edition) in order to address a multitude of issues.

For me, it's the same as pushing to game to console, it's generating a new revenue stream. There is, imo, an untapped market that TFP could be going for, yet never seem to engage with. Don't get me wrong, they clearly engage with developers who create PoIs and that is creative, per se, but I am talking about a larger and more consistent ecosystem for those types of players/creators to exist in.

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Jinkies, that was quite the post....

Overall, I think the baseline is "more textures and more flexible lighting would improve the look of the game". I doubt people will disagree with that. The question is whether it can be delivered in the current game framework with no, negligible, or minimal loss of performance, and if so then that can only be a positive.

 
Any texture in the game that isn't part of the available selection. Look at any object in the game, it needs a texture, not every texture is available. Take the gas barrels for example, the red ones, they are simple cylindrical shapes with a texture.
Well, some of them are obviously different, you're using "object" here, but I doubt you want to paint with zombie faces; so I'll stick to blocks. Still, "obviously different": What would a cobblestone yucca plant look like? Or a chrysanthemum staircase? I dunno, but Horrible in any case. The shapes that are very different from the basic building blocks are rather impossible to map into anything sensible and thus pointless as paints. This is "most" block textures I can think of that aren't usable, they just wouldn't make sense as paint.

Your example of a barrel would be relatively easy to map from a paintable base texture; but that might be a decision made in the other direction, they may not want burning barrels to be painted into cobblestone barrels. On the other hand the "functional" burning barrel might require something specific from its texture to work well with the connected light source (like maybe the inside is producing glow light itself). If the burning one requires something specific for the inside, it might not be easy to make the outside separately paintable - that'll depend on the system.

Other than that, doors might be a middle-ground block that might be "easy" to turn into a paint, but who'd want to paint with doors? And I doubt it's actually easy, doors now have plenty of "3d" features (the "reinforcements" that are added when repairing); those are separate to the base door textures.

The beer coolers, ye that was one of the nicer things of old; but TFP seems to have wanted an actual 3d-cooler to go with the large supermarket fridges etc (new one obviously unpaintable). Adding the new ones made the old texture obsolete, and that's a free new paint slot. It may still be there, but I doubt it'll stay forever...

 
You definitely misinterpreted my comment, and what is slightly worrying is that you chose the definition where I was actively insulting the development team. If you are unsure, just ask, don't drop to an assumption. Especially when that assumption paints me in a such bad light.

However, apology accepted.


You do have a way of phrasing things that does read to me as insulting, but I'm going to chalk that up to being "a me problem" and assume that if we were having beers and talking it out that we'd probably be cool about things.

With regard to light sources, we have seen overlapping light sources be a performance problem. My speculation, as I have not looked into that code, is that it was related to shadows. Multiple light sources cast overlapping shadows and perhaps there's lots of ray tracing with that. I can only guess.

At one point it was important enough that POI design guidance/requirements for the CompoPack emerged where lights with shadows and overlapping lights were to be avoided. I'v also seen several in-game built player bases folks have wanted to turn into POIs and they have come with enough lights to cause problems.

Alas, I do agree that changing the shading and brightness would be a good thing for players as it would let players turn down lights, like the lantern which is too bright and has too large of a radius. I could see disabling shadows being cast from player light sources if that is the source of performance issues.

I don't have a feel for how lighting affects the consoles.

 
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