PC Will stealth finally be worth it in A21? Also all the anti-immersion/Skill system.

[Uncle Al]

Last I checked, sometime during early A20, this was not the case; the zeds that get up as you trigger an attack volume, would keep running to the player, even if the player moved. Until the player was properly seen by the zed, "re-stealthing" was impossible.

A dev mentioned planning a change to have that "chase time" be shortened, but I haven't followed up to check if something was changed. It sounded like only the timing was going to change, such that the zeds would still run to the player for the timer duration at least.

If you're saying it has changed since then, then how does it work now? The zeds just sprint to the trigger location? Which patch have you tested this on so I can check?

Think the change was around January of this year.

There's a long discussion thread, including @Boidster 's extensive testing, which I've linked to below. The change to volumes happens during the course of the thread.

 

[theFlu]

There's a long discussion thread, including @Boidster 's extensive testing, which I've linked to below.

Yeh, that's what I was referring to as my last proper testing period. Faatal there comments about reducing the auto-agro timer down to 20 secs, I'm testing in A20.6 b9 right now and can't decide if it's 15s or 20.. but for those 15 or 20, you're the target without reprieve. That's enough for a runner to reach you; it's short enough that it doesn't bother me as a mechanic, but: the unavoidable agro it still there for attack volumes.

 

[Uncle Al]

Yeh, that's what I was referring to as my last proper testing period. Faatal there comments about reducing the auto-agro timer down to 20 secs, I'm testing in A20.6 b9 right now and can't decide if it's 15s or 20.. but for those 15 or 20, you're the target without reprieve. That's enough for a runner to reach you; it's short enough that it doesn't bother me as a mechanic, but: the unavoidable agro it still there for attack volumes.

Are you sure that's 'auto' aggro? I'm pretty certain that only applies if you failed the stealth check for that particular zombie.

There was a definite statement that the true attack volumes, like the ones in the really wonky fire station where the designer had made every single encounter an auto aggro, were totally removed. Part of the trade off for the changes to stealth.

 

[theFlu]

Are you sure that's 'auto' aggro? I'm pretty certain that only applies if you failed the stealth check for that particular zombie.

If you fail a stealth check (or didn't even stealth) against an attack volume zed, the zed will follow you for 15/20 seconds. Not the spot you triggered it at, not just a general wander around, it will follow you wherever you go. Regardless of it's normal stealth detection abilities, for those 15 secs it hunts you.

I don't care what you call it, but it's a separate type of agro granted by a separate type of check, in a specific volume type, ignoring normal stealth rules. A difference discoverable in normal game play. Saying "auto-agro doesn't exist" while this new flaro-agro is practically the same thing (for the annoying parts of auto-agro) is just going to cause confusion.

 

[Uncle Al]

If you fail a stealth check (or didn't even stealth) against an attack volume zed, the zed will follow you for 15/20 seconds. Not the spot you triggered it at, not just a general wander around, it will follow you wherever you go. Regardless of it's normal stealth detection abilities, for those 15 secs it hunts you.

I don't care what you call it, but it's a separate type of agro granted by a separate type of check, in a specific volume type, ignoring normal stealth rules. A difference discoverable in normal game play. Saying "auto-agro doesn't exist" while this new flaro-agro is practically the same thing (for the annoying parts of auto-agro) is just going to cause confusion.

I'd say it's totally different.  The old auto aggro totally ignored stealth, no matter your skills or approach. The new version always gives you the chance to avoid the aggro if you can successfully remain hidden - the zeds will target your position not you.

 

[theFlu]

I'd say it's totally different.  The old auto aggro totally ignored stealth, no matter your skills or approach.

It has changed, for sure, by how much; I can't describe the original properly, as I did no proper testing on it, so I can't really say.

But for me, the mechanic deserves the name "auto-agro" even before a player has found the stealth button. When you walk into a normal volume, sleepers will keep sleeping. When you walk into an attack volume, all the sleepers will automatically attack you. Once you've done a couple repeats of suitable POIs, you've figured you there's a difference; the difference being, some volumes attack automatically, some don't.

the zeds will target your position not you.

And for this, this is wrong. The auto-agro zeds will chase a player with the AI showing the player's name as a target for an ApproachAndAttack task. They'll follow the player for the 20 secs (seems to be 20). They'll even hit you "blindly" even if they can't see you before they're in melee range - as in from a range where they're Not able to detect me via normal stealth mechanics.

 

[zztong]

I'm not saying it doesn't work, the problem is that most sleeper volumes are ambushes in t3+ pois ...

This is an overstatement. A low percentage are attack volumes. I've been tempted to write a script to be able to give an accurate percentage since the volume type in the XML files should tell us that. (We are talking vanilla POIs, right?)

... most of the time the zombies are always hidden behind blocks so your not able to use your stealth to snipe from the doorway like you should be able to. Like if I could open the door and snipe them i'd not complain. But the fact they are almost always hidden behind a block kinda well.. blocks that...

To me, this reads as an unreasonable expectation. A POI with all of a room's zombies visible from the doorway is a gift; free experience for very little work. By making you move, you're forced to pick a path and get closer. The path might tempt you across a noise-maker, or into light, or to a proximity that is close to a zombie. All of those work in the zombie's favor. The counter is to practice good stealth techniques and work to avoid those issues. That's playing the game. That's a good thing.

I suggest you try to stealth the A20 version of the Crack-A-Book POI, AKA skyscraper_02. This POI is 100% stealthable. I do it all the time. You might wake up a zombie or two, but that's different than waking up an entire room or floor. You need to be rigged for stealth, so light armor, lights out, able to keep your stealth number very low when needed. You'll be crouched the entire time (no running) and no normal movement. Don't step on trash. Destroy if it is in your way. Stay out of the light. Use a wrench and dismantle illuminated lights if you're going to walk past one. Abandon the "suckers path" when it makes no sense. (Climbing and jumping to start? Nope.) Night time does the best because there's no sunlight. Finally, use a bow or silent weapon to keep your distance when possible. Work to get those shots. Destroy furniture or whatever to give you the angle. Figure out how far your reach is with those tools. You can take stuff apart from a decent distance.

Attack volumes are special. Once you enter the attack volume it will trigger the ambush. If you don't enter the volume, it won't trigger. The idea is to get to the same height as the zombies to get them to spawn in and then quietly kill them with a bow from outside the attack volume. You won't know where the attack volume starts and stops, but there's little reason for the attack volume to include blocks in a neighboring room. Poke holes in the wall, or roof, to get a good shot.

 

[hiemfire]

That's enough for a runner to reach you;

With default settings every zombie is a runner at night, which is when stealth is at it's strongest. Night = not having to be as concerned about being near windows that are lighting up the blocks around them, despite the game's player vision mechanic making sitting in lit areas a necessity so you can actually @%$#ing see unlike when standing on a "dark" spot (completely and painfully different from reality where looking towards or away from the direction of a source of illumination dictates one's ability to see in or into dark areas). The magazines that boost night damage and xp gain, iirc they exist in vanilla though it has been awhile since I played, also nudges a stealth player to do their work during the game's night.

 

[Jinx_DG]

hidden behind blocks so your not able to use your stealth to snipe from the doorway like you should be able to. Like if I could open the door and snipe them i'd not complain.

It is possible to actually sneak into the room, sneak move around the room to better postion oneself for a sneak shot. I do this all the time. This is made even easier if you are doing a clear quest as the little red dots give away the zeds postioning. Granted if not for a quest then clearing a poi in sneak is challenging and sometimes the zeds will get the jump on you (as they should), at least until one is familiar enough with the poi and possible zed placement. What should not, nor ever happen is for a player to be able to kill Every Single Zed from an open doorway in sneak. That's..... just lame and defeats the purpose of choosing a sneak style of play. Having that happen for one or two, here or there I can see, but never all zeds. 

 

[Ramethzer0]

It is possible to actually sneak into the room, sneak move around the room to better postion oneself for a sneak shot. I do this all the time. This is made even easier if you are doing a clear quest as the little red dots give away the zeds postioning. Granted if not for a quest then clearing a poi in sneak is challenging and sometimes the zeds will get the jump on you (as they should), at least until one is familiar enough with the poi and possible zed placement. What should not, nor ever happen is for a player to be able to kill Every Single Zed from an open doorway in sneak. That's..... just lame and defeats the purpose of choosing a sneak style of play. Having that happen for one or two, here or there I can see, but never all zeds. 

But but but that means Scyris has to take responsibility for their own playstyle failings!    It's so much more fashionable to rage against Devs and call them out!

 

[Jinx_DG]

It's so much more fashionable to rage against Devs and call them out!

It's a cookie cutter "rage" and a cookie cutter "call out". I'd give it more credit if the rage and call out wasn't a repeated talking point copied and spat out in cookie cuttter fashion. 

 

[Roland]

It's a cookie cutter "rage" and a cookie cutter "call out". I'd give it more credit if the rage and call out wasn't a repeated talking point copied and spat out in cookie cuttter fashion. 

Well the game IS early access after all. "Alpha" I've heard it called sometimes....

 

[Laz Man]

Attack volumes are special. Once you enter the attack volume it will trigger the ambush. If you don't enter the volume, it won't trigger. The idea is to get to the same height as the zombies to get them to spawn in and then quietly kill them with a bow from outside the attack volume. You won't know where the attack volume starts and stops, but there's little reason for the attack volume to include blocks in a neighboring room. Poke holes in the wall, or roof, to get a good shot.

This is nice and all but I wouldn't expect players to have to "game the mechanic."

If players want to sneak kill attack volume sleepers, they will need the perk for that.  Hiding and restealthing is another option.

 

[zztong]

This is nice and all but I wouldn't expect players to have to "game the mechanic."

If players want to sneak kill attack volume sleepers, they will need the perk for that.  Hiding and restealthing is another option.

I wasn't aware there was a perk specific to attack volume sleepers. I've got to go do some reading. I hate to have overlooked that.

I wouldn't say I expect players to "game the mechanic." I expect they will adapt to their environment to avoid being ambushed -- that's playing the game.

The mechanic provides a language to describe zombie behavior. Example: Why do invisible zombies appear all around me when I reach the top of a ladder? You entered the Zombie Volume vertically; they appeared at the last moment when your feet hit the floor. How do I stop that? Arrange some other vertical ascension and enter that space horizontally... perhaps a ladder on the outside of the building, knock a hole, see zombies, shoot zombies.

Edit:

As a POI designer, I admit there is a bit of a thrill seeing a player experience planned surprises. As a professor, there's also a thrill in seeing people detect a complication or challenge and then plan, organize, execute and ultimately overcome it. Go team humanity!

 

[Uncle Al]

I wasn't aware there was a perk specific to attack volume sleepers. I've got to go do some reading. I hate to have overlooked that.

Laz Man is talking about 'From the Shadows' i.e. the stealth perk.

When a volume is triggered now, a distance in meters is calculated based on your ranks in the perk and how well lit you are (and if you have an active light source you automatically fail and all spawned zombies see you). That distance is then checked for each zombie that spawned from the trigger. If a zombie is closer than the calculated distance, they saw you and have aggro on you.  You don't get a sneak attack damage boost either on those targets unless you disengage and restealth.

If a zombie was further away than the calculated distance when it spawns then it hasn't seen you. It will probably be active but it is not directly tracking you and you do get stealth damage boost on those zombies.

There are a few 'sleeper spawn' volumes still in the game, where the zombies don't even spawn active, but the majority were changed to attack volumes which behave as described above. All the auto-attack volumes were also changed to attack volumes, so zombies always have to pass the stealth check to see you upon spawning. There are a few spawn volumes here and there that are pretty much unstealthable unless you've broken into the volume by a non standard route, because one of the triggered zombies spawns basically on top of the entrance way and will always spot you as their distance from you is less than a meter, but those are very much a rarity.

 

[zztong]

I think I'm mixing in Attack volumes when I don't mean to. Attack are the default volumes, right? I think I just mean Trigger volumes when we talk of an ambush that I thought ignored stealth. I thought entry into a trigger volume alone, no other factors, triggered the encounter and that Z's would become immediately active and targeting the Player that triggered it.

The Combat Encounter comes to mind within a Gun Store. If you enter the combat encounter and proceed to the obvious loot, you trigger a bunch of other volumes and have to deal wth the Zs. But, if you ignore the loot and sneak the perimeter, you can stealth most/all of the place. I've never tried to stealth to the loot. I guess I'll have to do that.

 

[Uncle Al]

I think I'm mixing in Attack volumes when I don't mean to. Attack are the default volumes, right? I think I just mean Trigger volumes when we talk of an ambush that I thought ignored stealth. I thought entry into a trigger volume alone, no other factors, triggered the encounter and that Z's would become immediately active and targeting the Player that triggered it.

The Combat Encounter comes to mind within a Gun Store. If you enter the combat encounter and proceed to the obvious loot, you trigger a bunch of other volumes and have to deal wth the Zs. But, if you ignore the loot and sneak the perimeter, you can stealth most/all of the place. I've never tried to stealth to the loot. I guess I'll have to do that.

I don't now the correct terms for them to be honest, in the code they're just 0, 1 and 2.

0 - Zombies spawn alert but with no target

1 - Zombies spawn asleep

2 - Zombies spawn targetted on the location of the triggering player

Zombies that spot the triggering player (closer than the calculated stealth distance) will target the triggering player directly.

Generally seems folk call 0 an active spawn, 1 a passive spawn and 2 an aggressive spawn but your milage may vary.

Stealthing to the loot in the shooting range works (the zombies will activate and move towards the centre but they don't have a fix on you) but you'll almost certainly have to do it at night.  The centre area is totally exposed and will be very brightly lit in daytime so even with maxed out From the Shadows I think you'll get  spotted by at least the closer zeds.

 

[theFlu]

0s have been greatly reduced, 2s have been completely removed and the vast majority of spawn triggers are now 1s.

This is "SleeperVolumeFlags", right?

With a "grep SleeperVolumeFlags *.xml" (under Data/Prefabs/POIs), and visual inspection.. I'm getting about 40% of 2's, 50% of 0's, just a couple of 1's. I'm kinda confused here?

 

[Uncle Al]

This is "SleeperVolumeFlags", right?

With a "grep SleeperVolumeFlags *.xml" (under Data/Prefabs/POIs), and visual inspection.. I'm getting about 40% of 2's, 50% of 0's, just a couple of 1's. I'm kinda confused here?

Hmm looks like they changed the behaviour of type 2s, not the number of them.  I've updated my previous post accordingly.

Basically it doesn't matter now whether it's a 0, 1 or 2, zombies will only have you as a target if they're closer than the stealth distance calculated when you tripped the spawn.  There's some direct testing of stealthing up to a spawn in a '2' volume in the thread I linked earlier, which shows that type 2 volumes no longer automatically break stealth.

Certainly that's been my experience, I haven't found any spots that cannot be stealthed, just some that are really hard, because where you trigger the spawn is in very bright light and/or you get spawns appearing very close to the trigger spot.

 

[theFlu]

Good, good, we're at least talking of the same version then..

Basically it doesn't matter now whether it's a 0, 1 or 2, zombies will only have you as a target if they're closer than the stealth distance calculated when you tripped the spawn.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to convey here. If I read it as you've written it, it implies that volume-2 zeds would lose agro if you increase your distance to them after triggering? That doesn't seem to be the case in my testing, not now nor back during that Jan thread testing session.

I don't think that's your intent; I could try to guess your intent, but I'd rather ask for clarification.

I haven't found any spots that cannot be stealthed, just some that are really hard

For a sort of a clarification on my position, this part is likely true for the entire game. Max perks and night time etc, and you can stealth every volume in game.