PC Why lvl 6 gear cannot be crafted?

[Archael]

I started playing a21 with day lenght of 2h, and reducing loot to x0.5

I apend points into miner69er, batons, fortitude with off the land, iron gut and healing factor.

I have found tons of magazines but most was cooking, madicine, repairing tools.

Trader had tons of books and magazines, and magazine bundles are best quest rewards imo.

I just learned lvl5 stone axe, but already had that from poi loot. I also got iron shovel lvl4, i had most gear of lvl 3 without need for crafting.

I understand and appreciate learn by loot system. But it was very poorely thought out...

Crafting is now totally redundant, and spending points in anything other than utility skills (off the land, iron guts etc.) is pointless.

So if you use a shotgun, investing in the shotgun perk that will make the shotgun eventually twice as effective (+50% damage + 50% faster fire rate +30% faster reload, shots to legs slow them) is useless?

Please explain.

Yes, investing in damage is nice. But it seem that You unintentionally agreed with me. You see, there is no other reason to invest in a skill even tho it:
 

21 hours ago, Archael said:
I think the system can be improved but it require some tweaks:

1. Quest rewards should be reduced by half.

2. Trader prices should be increased.

Right now the best thing to do is to do quests since it gives both rewards - from looting and from quest, at least make it harder to get things from trader.

3. Quests should not reset whole POIs, now quests reset everything so people can scavenge same buildings indefinitely, and 2 times at once. Quests should only respawn zombies, close doors and switches, and create chest for fetch quests.

4. Perks should have much higher impact on magazines we find and the better perk the bigger impact.
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"The better the perk the bigger impact" . That is already how it works.

It already increase the magazines gain... Because crafting is a joke right now, and noone needs crafting skills maybe except cooking and farming. TheONLY reason to increase skill is to gain damage which can be done by buying better gear from trader. Fighting skills can wait. (Tho i havnt seen much of an impact from skills. Im master doctor even tho i spent no points in physician, and i still cant create lvl5 iron tools even tho im master miner).

Another thing:
I have found full iron armor lvl 3 even tho i still cant craft scrap armor lvl5
I bought compound crossbow lvl4 from trader even tho i cant craft lvl4 wooden bow.
When player manage to craft gear lvl 5, they will already have better gear of better tier and/or lvl from scavenging and trading.
AT LEAST make crafting of lvl6 gear possible. Learning how to craft is already RNG dependant. Getting materials to craft is also RNG dependant.
Gear of lvl 6 should be only crafted, not bought not scavenged, but this would be too much to ask.

 

[meganoth]

Yes, investing in damage is nice. But it seem that You unintentionally agreed with me. You see, there is no other reason to invest in a skill even tho it:
 

It already increase the magazines gain... Because crafting is a joke right now, and noone needs crafting skills maybe except cooking and farming. TheONLY reason to increase skill is to gain damage which can be done by buying better gear from trader. Fighting skills can wait. (Tho i havnt seen much of an impact from skills. Im master doctor even tho i spent no points in physician, and i still cant create lvl5 iron tools even tho im master miner).

I can buy better gear at the trader. Sometimes. Sometimes not. Often not the weapon I want. Often it costs a leg and an arm and is still just a small upgrade.

At the same time I have those perk points and when I put them in a weapon perk I also get an upgrade, practically free. And the best of it all, it stacks with any improvements from buying better weapons.

So no, I don't agree. I invest in important ultility perks AND in weapon perks. 

Another thing:
I have found full iron armor lvl 3 even tho i still cant craft scrap armor lvl5
I bought compound crossbow lvl4 from trader even tho i cant craft lvl4 wooden bow.
When player manage to craft gear lvl 5, they will already have better gear of better tier and/or lvl from scavenging and trading.
AT LEAST make crafting of lvl6 gear possible. Learning how to craft is already RNG dependant. Getting materials to craft is also RNG dependant.
Gear of lvl 6 should be only crafted, not bought not scavenged, but this would be too much to ask.

I don't see how crafting q6 gear is changing anything. Sure, it seems a sensible move at least for lower tiers, but it won't help anything with the crafting/looting balance.

 

[Archael]

So no, I don't agree. I invest in important ultility perks AND in weapon perks. 

No, the point was not the usefullness of weapon perks, that was only the bait. Please read carefully. The point was that crafting is useless. Investing in weapon perks will make weapon crafting magazines drops faster, but You have not mentioned that, only the damage part. Its because crafting is a joke in since some time and its not even worth being mentioned by the mod.

I don't see how crafting q6 gear is changing anything. Sure, it seems a sensible move at least for lower tiers, but it won't help anything with the crafting/looting balance

Craftable lvl6 is one step of making more balance. I have posted some more steps but everyone can think about it by their own. More on that - crafting lvl6 gear is a neccesity if we wants the balance... or remove learn by loot and make parts also craftable, but this is not what devs means, so no, balance needs this first step of craftable lvl6.

Im another few hours into the game.
Im able to buy most steel gear of avarage lvl3 and i just learned how to craft lvl1 steel tools... i have no steel tools parts to do that so more scavenging.
Crafting is a joke, is so redundant, and even if we would like to craft something our whole effort will be destroyed when we found lvl6 gear that we already crafted lvl5.
Its nice to find something epic in loot or in trader stock, it really is. But we already have to find magazines and crafting parts, those are also epic loot we should feel rewarded when found.

 

[meganoth]

No, the point was not the usefullness of weapon perks, that was only the bait. Please read carefully.

Please write carefully. If you claim something it better be true or someone will take you up on it and the discussion drift away from what you really want to say.

The point was that crafting is useless. Investing in weapon perks will make weapon crafting magazines drops faster, but You have not mentioned that, only the damage part. Its because crafting is a joke in since some time and its not even worth being mentioned by the mod.

They will make magazines drop faster, but what you may not know is that the bonus is quite small, 2% per perk point. It is just designed as a safety net against too much randomness in magazine finds

THAT is why I think people should not think about magazines all the time when they perk into something. Look what the perk gives you and only think about magazines if that small bonus makes a difference for you (i.e. if you had bad luck with a magazine type just not dropping it might make sense to help a bit)

Crafting was no joke in B313, I could craft a tier1 weapon at quality 5 at day 5 when I only had looted quality 2 stone weapons. It may or may not be a joke now. Shows that it just depends on some further balancing to get it right, or some smaller changes where and how you get magazines.

To sum it up: Magazines are important in my view, the magazine find bonus from perks not that much. And drop chance is still getting balanced

Craftable lvl6 is one step of making more balance. I have posted some more steps but everyone can think about it by their own. More on that - crafting lvl6 gear is a neccesity if we wants the balance... or remove learn by loot and make parts also craftable, but this is not what devs means, so no, balance needs this first step of craftable lvl6.

Im another few hours into the game.
Im able to buy most steel gear of avarage lvl3 and i just learned how to craft lvl1 steel tools... i have no steel tools parts to do that so more scavenging.
Crafting is a joke, is so redundant, and even if we would like to craft something our whole effort will be destroyed when we found lvl6 gear that we already crafted lvl5.
Its nice to find something epic in loot or in trader stock, it really is. But we already have to find magazines and crafting parts, those are also epic loot we should feel rewarded when found.

When I can find a lvl6 pipe machine gun, but have the option to craft a q3-q5 AK47 I will craft and take the AK with me. The lvl6 pipe machine gun is the joke then.

I think the q6 weapons are just the placeholders for the legendary weapons. Until they are in the game this is all just talk about a temporary measure. And the drop chance of q6 tier3 weapons is probably still much too high (at least it was in A20, not idea if they changed that)

 

[BFT2020]

I think the q6 weapons are just the placeholders for the legendary weapons. Until they are in the game this is all just talk about a temporary measure. And the drop chance of q6 tier3 weapons is probably still much too high (at least it was in A20, not idea if they changed that)

Everything is a balancing act right now, which is probably why TFP made Q6 gear uncraftable (waiting to see if legendary gear actually occurs).

@Archael You can implement T6 crafting just by modding a few lines in the progression file.  The recipes are already setup for T6 crafting (based on increasing material costs for higher quality gear).  However, just because you can do something doesn't necessary mean you should unless you take other things in consideration.  I did incorporate Q6 crafting in my mod, but at the same time, I also reduced loot drops for Q4 and higher, I removed the ability to repair equipment, and jacked up the price modifier for the traders.  So now I, as the player, have the ability to craft Q6 gear, but it is to offset the fact that any Q6 gear I find in loot is already damaged and the traders gear is expensive.

And if Legendary gear comes into play, I will then remove the ability to craft Q6 gear to rebalance the game.

When I can find a lvl6 pipe machine gun, but have the option to craft a q3-q5 AK47 I will craft and take the AK with me. The lvl6 pipe machine gun is the joke then.

Some weapons though you will instantly go to a Q1 when it comes available - thinking of the pistol and double barrel shotgun.  Even if the Q6 pipe pistol or pipe shotgun has higher damage, the versatility of the 9mm pistol and double barrel trump the pipe weapons.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I really dont understand it.
I can get that being able to craft lvl6 gear could remove looting part... but we have to loot parts to craft better gear, so there will always be scavenging for loot.
Right now crafting is really unnecessary...
I hit me after last game with my friends. We played more roleplay. One was our camp-mama - farming, coocking etc. One was scavenging and doing some quests. One was hunting and questing. And I was mining all day long.
When Friend 2 found auger schamatic in trader stock i had no parts to craft auger. But the next day, friend 3 found lvl6 auger while scavenging some poi.
At the moment, crafting is just... bad. Every item you can find, and at the top of that, you can find lvl6 items, while crafting is capped at lvl5.

edit: especially now, when crafting is gated behind scavenging magazines.

Why?
Why in crafting game, grafting is unnecessary?

Be aware that your situation is normal in some ways, and highly irregular in others.   First of all, the experience of looting is tied to that particular player.  It will NOT reflect that game as a whole, evenly.  RNG is a harsh mistress, as is trader loot.  I'd be really careful of making a judgement of success/failure based upon that without diving into server settings, the relative lootstage/biome/perk rollout of each of the players, and not doing a full comparison between all trader merchandise across the board.  Your results may vary WIDELY and is not representative of everyone's gameplay, both in MP or even moreso in SP.

That being said:

Crafting is very necessary but only in relation to the whole.  7 Days has a lot of moving parts.  Some of these elements may be considerable during each of the stages of gameplay.  I feel your question wholly misrepresents crafting as a whole versus, say, Tool Crafting.   You will never experience a moment during your gameplay where crafting is useless, as you will continuously need to gain and process resources, whereas you might not need to craft as many weapons/tools/etc.   You may want to try another type of build, swallow your fergit it, and pick up a whole new gear set.

This is on top of the subject that has been spoken about at length with the notion of non-craftable t6 weapons and tools.  TFP did this to make them special.   I understand having multiple t6 of the same object feels less special but this is not a factor of coding, but of value placed upon them by we as people.

Crafting versus looting is a nuanced monster.   Generalizing the experience and pushing it as a failed system because you feel that you were failed as a player;  I would feel like as a personal issue.     The current crafting and looting system are going through some changes, and even at vanilla setting are noticeable.  I'd be a little more patient and try to glean a deeper perspective than what you currently have.  You're going to experience both worse, and better, over time and across multiple playthroughs.   How fortunate you are will play a massive role in shaping your experiences.  

 

[Archael]

Yeah, back, when crafting was tied to perks it was quite of understandable that we could not craft q6 gear (not fully tho), because heavy investment in perk could allow You to craft q6 items at lvl 15 (still schematics and parts would not drop for another 60 lvls).
But with magazines things changed, and people who defend inability of crafting q6 gear seems like not playing a21.
Magazines slows crafting to the point its irrelevant. yes, finally i will be able to craft q5 gear and yes, perhaps my luck will make that no trader and in neiter container i will find this q6 or even q5 auger, but by the time i will be able to craft this, it will be so deep into the game that it will make too much frustration.

I HAVE TO loot, do quests and exploit systems to learn how to craft. But that time i am also looting gear and parts. Its very unlikely that i will not find q5-6 gear by the time im able to craft it. Yet for all my effort put into learning, i should be rewarded.
Please play the game at a21 with default settings, do some quest, and tell me when and how many times you really crafted something by yourself. Lets gather more data than my own.
I really want to know. Is q1 iron armor you crafted by yourself better than q6 scrap armor you have found?
Was you able to craft ratchet before found or being able to buy impact driver?
What gear have you crafted beside ammo, food and vehicles?
And lets stick to magazines, even tho some playstyles in mp coop will have to change, now everyone have to scavenge.
But make this effort worth.
After scavenging hours and days, make people be able to craft what they earned if they will have no luck in finding stuff.

 

[meganoth]

Yeah, back, when crafting was tied to perks it was quite of understandable that we could not craft q6 gear (not fully tho), because heavy investment in perk could allow You to craft q6 items at lvl 15 (still schematics and parts would not drop for another 60 lvls).
But with magazines things changed, and people who defend inability of crafting q6 gear seems like not playing a21.
Magazines slows crafting to the point its irrelevant. yes, finally i will be able to craft q5 gear and yes, perhaps my luck will make that no trader and in neiter container i will find this q6 or even q5 auger, but by the time i will be able to craft this, it will be so deep into the game that it will make too much frustration.

I HAVE TO loot, do quests and exploit systems to learn how to craft. But that time i am also looting gear and parts. Its very unlikely that i will not find q5-6 gear by the time im able to craft it. Yet for all my effort put into learning, i should be rewarded.
Please play the game at a21 with default settings, do some quest, and tell me when and how many times you really crafted something by yourself. Lets gather more data than my own.
I really want to know. Is q1 iron armor you crafted by yourself better than q6 scrap armor you have found?
Was you able to craft ratchet before found or being able to buy impact driver?

That one I can already answer, we crafted our first wrench. We are not that far into our game right now.

What gear have you crafted beside ammo, food and vehicles?
And lets stick to magazines, even tho some playstyles in mp coop will have to change, now everyone have to scavenge.
But make this effort worth.
After scavenging hours and days, make people be able to craft what they earned if they will have no luck in finding stuff.

What you seem to be missing is that balancing magazines with loot drops is an ongoing effort by TFP. As I said before, In B313 crafting was ultra fast, in B317 it is probably too slow, but in B328(?) it could be the other way round again. Eventually you should be able to craft some and find some stuff.

On q6 items: Madmole recently said that they are thinking about making q6 craftable again, because of the new crafting mechanisms. Partly I agree with him (for tier0 and tier1). But this won't change or improve the balance of crafting and looting in my opinion, that must be done by balancing the magazine drop rate and the quality of loot drops.

 

[Moghwyn]

I wonder, would crafting/looting possibly provide a better experience if the skill level would also apply in some way to repairing things? Like, feel free to swing that q4 steel sledge you just found in the trash pile on day 1, no repairs though until you are proficient enough to craft it. Either toss it onto the repair pile once it starts falling apart or dismantle it for materials.

Early lucky finds would still be useful, you just wouldn't be set for the rest of your life. It's also an extra incentive to specialize within a group, a skilled crafter remains useful, because someone has to maintain that scavenged gear. Might possibly require some leeway to allow repairing below skill levels, at a penalty. Like, for each missing point, only repair up to (100% - [missing points] x 10%) max durability, so something requiring skill level 50 could only be halfway repaired at skill level 45 (and not repaired at all at skill level 40 or lower).

That would also neatly slot in with making q6 items available for crafting again.

 

[meganoth]

I wonder, would crafting/looting possibly provide a better experience if the skill level would also apply in some way to repairing things? Like, feel free to swing that q4 steel sledge you just found in the trash pile on day 1, no repairs though until you are proficient enough to craft it. Either toss it onto the repair pile once it starts falling apart or dismantle it for materials.

Early lucky finds would still be useful, you just wouldn't be set for the rest of your life. It's also an extra incentive to specialize within a group, a skilled crafter remains useful, because someone has to maintain that scavenged gear. Might possibly require some leeway to allow repairing below skill levels, at a penalty. Like, for each missing point, only repair up to (100% - [missing points] x 10%) max durability, so something requiring skill level 50 could only be halfway repaired at skill level 45 (and not repaired at all at skill level 40 or lower).

That would also neatly slot in with making q6 items available for crafting again.

It is a nice idea. One drawback I see is that people who want to use the same weapon both need the crafting skill so they can repair their weapon in the field. Even worse is the situation for armor and cars.

 

[BFT2020]

Please note that you are also not required to use the gear you find from Traders or during loot.  I did a playthrough (I think it was A19) where the only gear I was able to use were items I crafted myself.  I didn't even sell anything I found while looting (scrapped it down or melted it in the forge) - I could only sell things I made myself.  This was for anything that I could make myself (trader only things were okay to purchase).  Traders ended up being just for basic supplies.

In A20, I got into modding and removed the ability to repair equipment and removed the quest reward items from traders (so only dukes).  So I ended up using items I found from looting until it broke or used items I crafted myself.

There are options, you just got to be willing to explore.

 

[Survior]

...why...

Because dear OP, there is only one way to play this sandbox in vanilla and that is the arcade-dungeon-looter-shooter-linear super fun way [tm].

You're not meant to play this game, masquerading as a sandbox, as a sandbox, your meant to do same 5 endless quests all day every day.

It's post apocalyptic capitalism, get on board mate! Work for the_man [tm] or starve!

 

[Archael]

Please note that you are also not required to use the gear you find from Traders or during loot.  I did a playthrough (I think it was A19) where the only gear I was able to use were items I crafted myself.  I didn't even sell anything I found while looting (scrapped it down or melted it in the forge) - I could only sell things I made myself.  This was for anything that I could make myself (trader only things were okay to purchase).  Traders ended up being just for basic supplies.

In A20, I got into modding and removed the ability to repair equipment and removed the quest reward items from traders (so only dukes).  So I ended up using items I found from looting until it broke or used items I crafted myself.

There are options, you just got to be willing to explore.

Yeah, i was playing that way before a21. I was ignoring traders and focused mostly on mining and crafting my gear, and farming, ocasionally scavenging wrecked cars for mechanical parts, engines etc. but now i have to scavenge do quests and trade to even learn how to craft, i cannot do it by just playing the game as sandbox. There is no way that magazines would ocasionally drop from dismantled vehicles or mined ores, trees or from farming plots.