PC Why I like Alpha 17 perk and level gate system.

[Maxwar]

The a17 perk and level gate system seems to be getting a lot hate on the forums. I am one of those who likes it. I think it is much better than what we had before. It may not be perfect yet but I feel it is a significant improvement. I will try to explain why.

1.Learn by doing and cheese tactics. ( edit : as some readers pointed out, I might have mixed some elements of a15 with a16 here, my apologies about that. Been I while since I played A16. )

Back in a16 i would start every games by spam crafting hundreds of wood clubs and stone axes to power level my crafting skills. This is silly and not fun. It also screwed up game progression as you could literally skip phases of the game and get to craft strong items right off the bat ( see point 2 ) - Me and my buddy would also do other kind of stupid things like hit each other repeatedly to buff our armor skills. Im glad I don't feel compelled to do those things anymore.

2.Better controlled player progression

To me 7dtd has always been a game about the challenge of surviving. I like the game to be difficult and I like that the difficulty is not easily overcome by the player progression. In other words, I want the game to still be challenging even in late game. It was rather easy to quickly overcome the game in previous versions. It was somewhat challenging in the beginning but then you took over and the game got easier. In a17 this does not happen as much and one of the reason is how the level gate system works. Instead of beelining key skills to cheese the game, you have to ''suffer through'' more primitive game stages. Finding or crafting that first fireaxe feels so much better now that you have to suffer through using a stone axe for a week or more.

3. The risk/reward dynamics of building Vs looting and fighting.

I really enjoy this aspect of a17 and it is caused not only by the level gate system but also by the fact that most XP comes from fighting. You get to choose how you spend your days in the game. This is especially relevant in early game as you are starting from scratch.

a) If you power level by constantly clubbing hordes in early game you get to have those nice perks and tech unlocks quickly but it also ups the game stage and the difficulty of the attacks on your base. Since you spent so much time fighting maybe you neglected your base and you might have a tough time when it is attacked. #risk/reward
 
b) If you choose to concentrate on looting, you have a chance to find some game changing items early on. It is also often helpful by allowing you to explore and locating strategic locations and food supplies. This could greatly help you in your playthrough but if you get unlucky and don't find anything of significant value then you are left weakened and it might have been more worthwhile to spend your time elsewhere. Looting, especially early on also means taking a bit more risk as you might need to fight through buildings and expose yourself to deadly animals. Furthermore, looting usually means a lot of killing which does tend to boost your gamestage.( see previous point) #risk/reward
 
c) Harvesting/building. You will not get much XP by doing this but you will have a stronger base by days 7 most of the times. Also, by keeping your level low, you can keep the gamestage lower which can help you get less deadly hordes. However you will have to suffer through being weak and under-equipped for longer and it might have been more efficient to loot a little and find better tools, or find stuff to sell to buy them. Allowing you to harvest and build faster. #risk/reward.

In the end you want to balance those things out and optimize them. Don't neglect your base. Loot strategically. Don't over level too quickly. Level purposely for key perks instead of just perking up as fast as you can. I find the game more engaging thanks to this new dynamic. In a16 playing was often a lot more straightforward and I find it was generally much more efficient to just camp and build up early on. You could do a lot with crafting alone. This would probably be the same in a17 if we made the XP gains from harvesting and building on par with fighting. Then the builder camper approach would become a lot more desirable, removing a lot of interesting decision making from the game and making it, imho, more boring.

I am aware that this system might be disappointing for people playing in a team where players specialize. Sucks if your builder guy is XP starved because their favourite part of the game is working on the base. Personally I have not experienced this so much as we all do a bit of everything when I play with friends.

4. Skill unlocks Vs Hunting for schematics.

I was not a very big fan of the schematic hunting in A16. It was still ok and it gave you a motivation to go out and loot, which was fun. But sometimes the RNG would screw you up by never giving you some very important schematics despite you hunting for them for weeks, ending up in player frustration. With the level gating, you know when things will become available to you. But you still have to make choices as to what you want first. I prefer the game to be about choices and planning rather than dumb luck.

Those are the main points I wanted to talk about. I think A17 is very engaging and I like the direction the game has taken overall.

 

[WolfyBlah]

Did you play 0 alpha16? Spam crafting was removed in alpha 15 so saying you spam crafted clubs/axes in a16 is just plain false.

 

[sadpickle]

Back in a16 i would start every games by spam crafting hundreds of wood clubs and stone axes to power level my crafting skills. This is silly and not fun. It also screwed up game progression as you could literally skip phases of the game and get to craft strong items right off the bat

First, I don't know where this falsehood is coming from. Was this before A16.4? I honestly can't remember. I know this was the meta in A15. But I also know you can not grind up the skills for crafting tools in the most recent stable. As for armor skills leveling with use, I suppose this is easily abused, but that's on the player if they want to cheese the game. Did you also waste a week crafting 1000 bandages for the meager medical skill XP? The fact that a mechanic can be abused does not make it a bad mechanic per se.

2.Better controlled player progression

Begs the question; why does progression need to be controlled at all? This is a game, and one with only a very mild competitive angle. I see no reason to artificially constrain the player in a game that is primarily PVE. Those of us with jobs would prefer to dive into the aspects of the game that interest us, not spend hours grinding zed kills and POI dives before we can really get into the building aspects.

 

[RestInPieces]

1. That system didn't come hand in hand with cheese tactics. A few fixes could have taken care of these tactics. Not saying this system is not good enough, just pointing that out.

2. Agree 1000%. The progression curve used to be terrible.

3. a) Hopefully "powerleveling" will stop being a thing, after Gazz changes xp sources.

b) Good items and guns are way to abundant imo. Kind of ruins the point of a more paced progression.

c) Keeping gamestages low intentionally is a meta choice and a terrible way to create more playstyle choices.

The builder/camper approach would only be more desirable than the "powerleveler" approach. You still have to explore/scavenge/defend and zombies are meant to be obstacles, not xp pinatas anyway. Survival is the goal, xp sources must be balanced so that the player's actions depend on that goal.

4. Recipe skills are essential so there's not much choosing there. But I do like the level gates for the fact that they slowed down progression. They still can be done in a less obvious way though. Also it doesn't have to be complete randomness or static - it can be a mix of both in any analogy.

why does progression need to be controlled at all? This is a game

And not a pure sandbox game. Because guess what every other game does.

 

[Maxwar]

Did you play 0 alpha16? Spam crafting was removed in alpha 15 so saying you spam crafted clubs/axes in a16 is just plain false.

I did play a lot of A15 and no so much A16 so yes, my apologies my memory must have scrambled on that point. I quit A16 early on after 16.4 after I made a complete solo playthrough on insane without dying once and got bored. I could have sworn the spam crafting was still in A16. I guess after almost a year not playing my brain farted.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

1. there are already cheese tactics for the new system.

Cheese isn't bound by the system, but by how well it is optimized. A15&16 were simply not optimized and TFPs ignored (not rejected) every method that would fix the system and rather completely gut it to what we now have. It takes optimization, not a different system.

2. yeah. that was totally what was needed in an open world sandbox game. less freedom. If a player is good... fk him! He has to stay within a certain bound! Who is he to have better strategy, better focus? Lets completly remove that freedom of optimisation and replace it with arbitrary level gates.

3. this was also, if less so, the case in A16 as everything you did cost time and leveled you up. So if you looted 24/7, you had nothing for basebuilding and no fighting skills, but you still had the basics. Not you HAVE to speck out. You can still just loot (once xp is better balanced)... but now you can speck into whatever you want and not what you did... But only as much as TFPs allows you! Not level 20 yet? Well I guess you cant farm ressources efficiently then.

4. yeah. Even us progression players wanted skillbooks to return, now that we have traders and quests... But I do not see why you would need the new A17 perksystem. All that does is artificially restrict you from learning good recipies until TFPs descide you should be able to, instead of desciding yourself when you want to do that.

I'm sorry. I'm happy that you enjoy it, but from a design standpoint, A17 is horrible. Even if they balance stuff. The IDEA behind the new systems are there just to slow you down instead of giving you more to do.

Its basically as if you would reduce the speed of formula 1 cars by 70m/ph 100km/h and advertise it as this great new thing "now even longer races!!!" Its BS and I think even TFPs know it, if they are honest with themselves.

Not EVERYTHING in A17 is bad. But a lot of the new core mechanics (perks/levelgating, weaponlevel, new poi, stamina and so on) are just there to give you a fake impression of difficulty. And it makes me sad to see such a great game gutted like this.

 

[sadpickle]

And not a pure sandbox game. Because guess what every other game does.

It's more of a sandbox than Minecraft, technically. It drops you into a scenario with no clearly defined end-goal and lets you do as you will. Artificially constraining the player is BORING.

 

[Maxwar]

Begs the question; why does progression need to be controlled at all? This is a game, and one with only a very mild competitive angle. I see no reason to artificially constrain the player in a game that is primarily PVE. Those of us with jobs would prefer to dive into the aspects of the game that interest us, not spend hours grinding zed kills and POI dives before we can really get into the building aspects.

It all depends on what you like about the game and what you want to do in the game. For me it is about the survival challenge. It is about the game being difficult and me trying not to die. Fyi I do have a job.

 

[Randomdude]

I read and respectfully disagree.

"1.Learn by doing and cheese tactics."

I think this has not been a thing in the last builds... but I might be wrong.

"you have to ''suffer through'' more primitive game stages."

This DESTROYS any kind of replayablity. I have only 2 games running at the moment (usually have like 4-5) just because I dread the "waiting for my stamina" as I dig for the traders treasure (hate you Joe), or while meleeing a horde because I "need" that experience and I can't let them go.

"Also, by keeping your level low, you can keep the gamestage lower which can help you get less deadly hordes."

This is a huge design flaw of the game stage that needs to be addressed. You're trying to control the difficulty of the game by not playing the game as intended.

"4. Skill unlocks Vs Hunting for schematics."

I don't understand why we can't have both. There is a level requirement, but if you get a "how to book", why couldn't you "make" whatever it is that is locked. Leave the system as is, but if you get lucky and find how to craft a bicycle, you've just made a huge leap in the skill tree. You still would have to find a working workbench and the materials needed though, so I think it would be balanced and would bring books back. Good books at the start of a game felt AWESOME in A16. [spiked club, minibike book, crossbow schem. yes I'm looking at yall]

I agree that A17 is a step forward, but it also forgot a bunch of things that made A16 good.

 

[RestInPieces]

It's more of a sandbox than Minecraft, technically. It drops you into a scenario with no clearly defined end-goal and lets you do as you will. Artificially constraining the player is BORING.

It has sandbox elements but it is not a pure sandbox game, read the description.

7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games.

 

[R0bb0b]

Begs the question; why does progression need to be controlled at all? This is a game, and one with only a very mild competitive angle. I see no reason to artificially constrain the player in a game that is primarily PVE. Those of us with jobs would prefer to dive into the aspects of the game that interest us, not spend hours grinding zed kills and POI dives before we can really get into the building aspects.

I also don't see how taking dimensions away from a multi dimensional game, as 7dtd was, makes the game more interesting. The one thing that we had that no other game did was freedom. Freedom to play the game how ever we liked, and the Pimps have always supported that aspect until now. They've taken all that away. We now have to follow a strict linear progression and I find it more annoying than fun.

 

[Maxwar]

I also don't see how taking dimensions away from a multi dimensional game, as 7dtd was, makes the game more interesting. The one thing that we had that no other game did was freedom. Freedom to play the game how ever we liked, and the Pimps have always supported that aspect until now. They've taken all that away. We now have to follow a strict linear progression and I find it more annoying than fun.

I a way it has always been somewhat linear. The game has always been about surviving the big hordes. Without these hordes you could just bury yourself in the ground or high up in a tower and never die. The only thing that would prevent you from doing so would be hunger and thirst. It is not Skyrim or some mmorpg where you can choose to live one way or another. Become a bandit or sorcerer or some merchant. The game is about you trying not to die. 7dtd is always the same in that regard. You do get your freedom in the game in how you organize your time and how and where you design your base.

I get that some people think of this game as more of a sandbox game and in this context I can understand that A17 might not meet their expectations but to me this is not at all what this game is. I get my replayability in the game by playing permadeath and trying to do better than last time. Or by trying a tougher difficulty setting.

 

[RestInPieces]

but to me this is not at all what this game is. I get my replayability in the game by playing permadeath and trying to do better than last time. Or by trying a tougher difficulty setting.

This is not about what the game is for each person, it is about what this game is in general.

One can focus on different things in-game or play in different ways, but it still is a survival/TD/rpg/fps, not a pure sandbox. You could mod it as such atm, but a sandbox mode that is something between creative/survival might be something for the devs to consider in the future.

 

[Verne]

End of day 5, insane diffuculty, 2h days - more than 750 zombies killed :|

I already miss old good mining non stop using auger with fuel crafted using self made alcohol. All is left now is wandering mindlessly from house to house killing zombies.

 

[Maxwar]

End of day 5, insane diffuculty, 2h days - more than 750 zombies killed :|I already miss old good mining non stop using auger with fuel crafted using self made alcohol. All is left now is wandering mindlessly from house to house killing zombies.

Not sure how sarcastic you are trying to be here. Is mining non stop supposed to be fun? Otherwise you are inflicting this upon yourself by your own doing or are purposely exaggerating. You can totally play and spend most of your days building or mining if you like with minimal looting or killing.

 

[Wigbert]

All very good points.

I would add that in A16 the crafting system in my opinion was a big mess.

It was not well organized and did not seem like a cohesive system.

And learning from schematics in A16 was a joke. By day 14 you probably looted a tower sized bookstore and had most if not all schematics read. So much for the motivation of looking for them. You need not enter a bookstore ever again.

In A16 I never bothered with making bandages or collecting cotton. I just took a trip to the desert and got Aloe. Now.. making bandages is a must early on, and the desert is kind of a long trip unless I cleared a vacation rental and hung out for a while. later when I get some transpo it wont be so bad because early game hauling things from point A to point B is a big pain in the rump.

Just my random thoughts.

 

[Verne]

Is mining non stop supposed to be fun?

Is killing zombies all the time something funny?

Otherwise you are inflicting this upon yourself by your own doing or are purposely exaggerating

Because LvL gated progression is nothing but a minor issue.

You can totally play and spend most of your days building or mining if you like with minimal looting or killing.

I can also wait whole day in one spot and die from starvation. It's not what a player can or can not do but how funny it is to do certain things. Minning gated behing LvL, never ending stamina problem, removed ability to craft fuel from alcohol and far too big zombie dmg against blocks combined with their 6th sense of sensing you makes this activity not fun at all.

 

[HerrKingsley]

All very good points.
I would add that in A16 the crafting system in my opinion was a big mess.

It was not well organized and did not seem like a cohesive system.

And learning from schematics in A16 was a joke. By day 14 you probably looted a tower sized bookstore and had most if not all schematics read. So much for the motivation of looking for them. You need not enter a bookstore ever again.

In A16 I never bothered with making bandages or collecting cotton. I just took a trip to the desert and got Aloe. Now.. making bandages is a must early on, and the desert is kind of a long trip unless I cleared a vacation rental and hung out for a while. later when I get some transpo it wont be so bad because early game hauling things from point A to point B is a big pain in the rump.

Just my random thoughts.

They could just balance a16 skill system instead of scraping it and build a new.

You know like they did with bandages. We didn't get a whole new healing system!

 

[sadpickle]

Not sure how sarcastic you are trying to be here. Is mining non stop supposed to be fun? Otherwise you are inflicting this upon yourself by your own doing or are purposely exaggerating. You can totally play and spend most of your days building or mining if you like with minimal looting or killing.

This is technically true, for now. It ignores the fact that in order to get a better tool than the stone axe, you must either find one (RNG), buy one (RNG and looting for things to sell/Dukes) or make one (level to 20 (by killing Zeds, because any other method is non-viable). When the devs fix the XP balance issue (assuming they fix it) then it may be possible to simply level to 20 doing gathering/building tasks. Right now it takes way too long to get to self-made iron tools, and any other method requires doing something other than mining/building. And this is beside the fact that you are constantly battling hunger (decent food requires at least a pot, which is also unavailable to craft until level 20.)

Many of the headaches of this current system could be alleviated by making the forge available earlier. Preferably level 1, but I would settle for level 10. Level 20 is too far off and relegates the player to a sub-par mining experience or spending the first week playing the way TFP apparently want us to play. In any case it incentivises grinding out levels, which rapidly raises the gamestage.

 

[Maxwar]

Is killing zombies all the time something funny?

Because LvL gated progression is nothing but a minor issue.

I can also wait whole day in one spot and die from starvation. It's not what a player can or can not do but how funny it is to do certain things. Minning gated behing LvL, never ending stamina problem, removed ability to craft fuel from alcohol and far too big zombie dmg against blocks combined with their 6th sense of sensing you makes this activity not fun at all.

I am honestly not sure I understand what your points are... To be honest I have not done much mining in A17. I typically get all my minerals from surface rocks until late game where I can make efficient tunneling. So far I have not survived past day 18 in A17 as I play permadeath ( or variations of permadeath like 3 lives ) .

The game needs a lot of balance tweaks but I definitely prefer the new mechanics of a17 overall. I am pretty sure you can mine merrily in a17 just maybe don't expect to do it by the first week.