Why DONT you want jars

[Kyoji]

What group(s) of gamers generally would want jars? Those who want a simulation. Those who want a certain level of immersion and consider jars to be significant enough to hamper that. Who else?

Next, what group(s) of gamers generally don't care at all about jars? Casual gamers. Action gamers. RPG gamers.

A fair assessment but not caring about jars /=/ not wanting them back. If most people don't care and there are quite a sizeable number than want them back even if only for memories sake then it doesn't seem to hurt putting them back in so long as the development time isn't excessive.

The issue with finding more specific information is that it doesn't take into account a myriad of factors. I don't post in a lot of forums for games as I don't always feel like my voice will change anything and so I don't bother. It doesn't mean I tacitly approve of anything. If you take the silent majority and were to get a definitive response I imagine at least some portion would want jars to return and some wouldn't. How many of each? Don't know.

Also, don't forget that most games that have you drink things do not give you back with containers. If this game has never done so, almost no one would complain about it. So what that means is that almost all new players (those who never saw empty jars in the game) aren't going to even notice that there aren't empty jars because they don't see those in most other games either. That alone takes out a large chunk of current players who actually want jars back.

I for one hope that IF they bring jars back they are consume on use like every other container.

For me jars doesn't fix any of the core problems I have with the direction from A16 to 2.0. In A16 you just ran around freely and ransacked areas with none of the loot room nonsense or quest progression that makes the game feel more like Skyrim than classic 7D2D.

Combine that with armor having magical qualities to it instead of practical things like armor and durability. We lost clothing and temperature which added some planning for each biome early on. Yes, the clothing looked like crap, but I think current armor should be less like Skyrim or World of Warcraft. So, for me, we traded mechanics for looks.

From my understanding we had sleeper zombies introduced in A15 or A16 but didn't have "trigger zones" and instead zombies would wake based on sound. This made sneaking much more viable and none of the I opened a door so everything wakes up nonsense or zombies sleeping behind a desk I can't see behind without triggering the zombie. While there were drawbacks to the former in that you could chain pull the enemies to kill zones I think the pendulum swung too far in the other direction. They talked about roaming/wandering zombies so hopefully that seems some light.

We lost part quality and schematics which I think is much better than the current system of 0-6. Wet concrete was a thing that made planning more meaningful and had some sense of realism to it and while not a big issue it just points towards the continual simplification of the games mechanics.

- this new gen z generation of players have never wanted them, they want their things spoonfed and milquetoast
- people wouldn't be complaining if they hadn't experienced the loss

I know you are quoting someone else but not sure what this means...

I don't know where people think Gen Z don't like jars. Is this a thing people think? I get that they receive a lot of disdain but it typically is the same disdain boomers have for Gen X or Gen X has for Millennials.

I also don't think people would be complaining if they hadn't experienced jars and honestly don't know why they are even now. We lost gas canisters, cans, etc. Where is the outrage there? I get that it makes water sources valuable so I am with you there but, what else does it provide outside of that? Realism left long ago so I don't think that is a good enough reason to warrant it's return.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I also don't think people would be complaining if they hadn't experienced jars and honestly don't know why they are even now. We lost gas canisters, cans, etc. Where is the outrage there? I get that it makes water sources valuable so I am with you there but, what else does it provide outside of that? Realism left long ago so I don't think that is a good enough reason to warrant it's return.

I honestly think the reasoning is more aesthetic and that's why those who want them back are having such a hard time getting across why they want them back. The conversation immediately leaps to mechanics and the difficulty of balancing organic water collection with water manufacturing when that's not their concern. Their concern is aesthetic -- feeling and atmosphere. Such concerns can't be expressed logically because they originate in the artistic. Try to "explain" a poem logically and you will fail. Same issue here.

 

[theFlu]

We lost gas canisters, cans, etc. Where is the outrage there?

Right here, simmering under the lid of quiet defeat. All in the same pot with the jars. Heck, I don't rage, or even advocate for "jars", and most others don't seem to either; realistically we've given up long ago, but argue back and forth out of bored hope. If I speak of "jars", I advocate for the whole stew of realistic and/or quirky mechanics that used to be a thing that got streamlined out over the years.

The Gen Z reference of mine was a thing Gen Z doesn't seem to get, a joke Should've prolly used "tiktok brain" instead, but they're the same thing in my demented brain.

 

[Rabbitslovecactus]

I want them back because well.....it was never broken to begin with. Just like GNS said, they had to patch a problem for a change to something that was never broken in the first place. They keep changing the game. When we were at Alpha 16, all they had to do was update the graphics and add all the current bells and whistles...but instead they keep changing the game over and over again to the point where now it is almost not the same game anymore...That's my opinion...

 

[Riamus]

Tihihi.. I've heard of socks, but jars of enjoyment..?
In the same paragraph I snipped the quote from: "If this game has never done so, almost no one would complain about it."
As in, "if only people didn't know about the past".

You're running two discounts* for the price of one in that para:
- this new gen z generation of players have never wanted them, they want their things spoonfed and milquetoast
- people wouldn't be complaining if they hadn't experienced the loss

* discountings of opinion. The first is My discounting of the "it's a needless complication on my survival puzzler, I don't want to deal with an inventory", the second is your discounting of my opinion essentially because I was here for the jars.

You know, you can make it very hard to want to have a conversation with you. You tend to twist the meaning of what is said. That is unfortunate because you usually make good points even if I don't always agree with you, and I don't think you consciously do it. That isn't criticism, but perhaps you don't realize it.

Anyhow. There were two different points. One was that those who didn't experience jars likely wouldn't even think about them, and so their opinion on the matter of jars is that they are normal or fine or whatever, or that they don't even have an opinion on it because they haven't ever thought about it. In either case, they wouldn't be supporting bringing back the empty jars. As I said, I don't know what percentage of players that encompasses, but it is likely a fairly large number of players.

The second is that people who have experienced them and want them back for that reason, most likely wouldn't have thought about it if they weren't ever in the game. The point there isn't that their opinion doesn't matter. It is that their opinion is likely related to something external to the jars and the jars are just something easy to hold on to. If you wouldn't care if you hadn't played the game with the empty jars, then what is the reason you care now? It would be something other than the lack of jars because that wouldn't have bothered you if jars hadn't ever been in the game. So what is the actual thing that bothers people? It is a point to maybe get people to actually think about it. Why does it matter if it wouldn't have mattered if you hadn't seen them in the game before? Is it more a dislike of change? Is it that you liked the game before and so you associate jars with being from before and so they are what you fixate on? Is it something else? To be clear, "you" refers to everyone and not you in particular. And if people play games, including survival games, that ain't give you empty containers back and will enjoy those and probably don't even think about the lack, doesn't it seem like there is more to it than the actual jars? Others keep saying there is more to it than jars, but jars are what people keep coming back to. Why?

And to be clear, I don't ask this to disparage jars. I ask because I am interested in knowing. People say immersion or realism or something else, but if it wouldn't bother them if they hadn't experiences it in this game, those don't seem to be the reason or they should still have mattered.

 

[Riamus]

I for one hope that IF they bring jars back they are consume on use like every other container.

Yet that is one of the most frequently complained about things. That jars disappear for no reason and it breaks immersion.

 

[Kyoji]

I honestly think the reasoning is more aesthetic and that's why those who want them back are having such a hard time getting across why they want them back. The conversation immediately leaps to mechanics and the difficulty of balancing organic water collection with water manufacturing when that's not their concern. Their concern is aesthetic -- feeling and atmosphere. Such concerns can't be expressed logically because they originate in the artistic. Try to "explain" a poem logically and you will fail. Same issue here.

I think there is a large part of that, but I think there is a lot of the "realism" aspect people hold in such high regard that I just do not. An easier solution would be to tint water green and just say "no". There are for sure feelings that A16 had that are not present in 2.0. I am not sure what it all encapsulates but for sure there is a lack of openness where POIs are linear, zombies are more scripted, etc and there is also a lack of complexity. A lot of systems have been removed or simplified.

Right here, simmering under the lid of quiet defeat. All in the same pot with the jars. Heck, I don't rage, or even advocate for "jars", and most others don't seem to either; realistically we've given up long ago, but argue back and forth out of bored hope. If I speak of "jars", I advocate for the whole stew of realistic and/or quirky mechanics that used to be a thing that got streamlined out over the years.

The Gen Z reference of mine was a thing Gen Z doesn't seem to get, a joke Should've prolly used "tiktok brain" instead, but they're the same thing in my demented brain.

I can understand wanting all of that back, but does a gas canister add a lot of value to the game? At least with jars it makes water sources valuable. I can understand wanting more complex container systems, but the clamor for it over parts quality, darker nights and even smell all seems strange. I feel like proportion of people who want jars back is inverse to the quality of life it gives in contrast to it's cut system peers.

Yet that is one of the most frequently complained about things. That jars disappear for no reason and it breaks immersion.

Of course it will, but alternative solutions have their own issues and at least immersion isn't breaking another system. Breaking jars for example either makes long T5 POIs harder (they are already bad for the time investment) as you now have to worry about your consumable water breaking when you have limited inventory or it makes it too obscure (eg falling damage) that you won't lose any jars in an average game.

Perhaps there is an idea TFP could come up with that doesn't hurt other systems while making them not consume on use, but I can't think of anything.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I am not sure what it all encapsulates but for sure there is a lack of openness where POIs are linear, zombies are more scripted, etc and there is also a lack of complexity. A lot of systems have been removed or simplified.

That's definitely a criticism I hear a lot. I'm not sure it's addressible at this late stage, though. In all fairness, TFP are in the home stretch whether they planned to be before the console sync-up or not. To ask them for a complete overhaul of existing systems would be unreasonable. At the same time, if it's worth doing it's worth doing well and I get the sense they're already under "crunch time" type pressure to get things done and are taking the easy, "challenge window" route to getting them done. Thus, the adverse reaction to 2.0.

There's a chance for the hybrids, but I would think at a much later stage, i.e. after the game technically goes gold, which seems to me all those who want said changes now would think too little too late. What can you say? Too bad?

 

[theFlu]

You know, you can make it very hard to want to have a conversation with you.

Oh I know I've ripped you often enough that I assume my posts aren't always a welcome sight. It's not out of any real animosity, though; I do respect you. Sometimes, like here, you just trample down a train of logic that boils down into something that I see "wrong". You didn't like my quote, because perhaps it wasn't your intent - but I think what I paraphrased actually was the logic in what you wrote. I wasn't trying to twist you to score a point, I was at most going for something like a reductio ad absurdum.

You sorta repeat it here, in the form of questions of why.. and "if we took your knowledge of jars away, would you know to want it?" Umm, that's kinda irrelevant. The only relevant question really is if the piece of entertainment is better for it; we want different things from it, so there's no one answer to that. But hypothetically adjusting the knowledge levels of people serves no purpose for the betterment of the game.

Others keep saying there is more to it than jars, but jars are what people keep coming back to. Why?

I'm one of those "with more", and well; "jars" is an easy shorthand, not just as a word, but as an idea. It's the easy thing to point at that actually broke a game mechanic in the complainer's mind. But I can guarantee that practically none of the complainers would be satisfied if
- drinks gave you jars
- and you could craft jars in a forge
- but you could NOT fill the jars from a lake, or anywhere else.
That would bring jars back, but be a spit in the face of practically every complainer - thus, they're not talking about jars, it's just a shorthand. I'll need some evidence if you want to argue against that

I feel like proportion of people who want jars back is inverse to the quality of life it gives in contrast to it's cut system peers.

It's just the most recent loss in that line of losses, and a topic that even madmole paid attention to.. so everyone latches on to it. I want weapon parts back too, but TFP doesn't. Dunno why, was never told. Can't really argue against "No", I can argue "water for crafting needs to be difficult".

 

[Lax]

I still miss cans! "Can" we make this discussion about cans now? See what I did there?

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I want them back because well.....it was never broken to begin with. Just like GNS said, they had to patch a problem for a change to something that was never broken in the first place. They keep changing the game. When we were at Alpha 16, all they had to do was update the graphics and add all the current bells and whistles...but instead they keep changing the game over and over again to the point where now it is almost not the same game anymore...That's my opinion...

They could, indeed, have refined those systems instead of getting rid of them altogether and replacing them with something less interesting. Believe me, I get it. I have to wonder, though, not only how many of them were placeholders that had to be replaced as well as how difficult it would have been to port those systems that weren't just placeholders over and refine them with each new update of the engine.

How nice we now have a few things to eat that don't all look like a leather wallet. How weird that they're now brown packages with twine wrapped around them. Yum! How weird a tiny dead tree makes the same sound as a veritable redwood going down. It's this kind of stuff that leads me to wonder about the actual size and constituency of TFP's staff. How many are we talking here? 60? I can see maybe 60 being changed in and out and/or contracted over time. Skryim had around 100 artists and developers. But these kinds of changes indicate a small business perhaps no larger than a dozen or so that doesn't have a lead artist or sound designer. Could be way off, but I wouldn't know because TFP is not the most up front developer I've ever run across. I will say that, were they more forthcoming about their resources, they could probably spare themselves quite a lot of unwarranted criticism because the empathy for a small, family-owned business would be there.

 

[Riamus]

You sorta repeat it here, in the form of questions of why.. and "if we took your knowledge of jars away, would you know to want it?" Umm, that's kinda irrelevant. The only relevant question really is if the piece of entertainment is better for it; we want different things from it, so there's no one answer to that. But hypothetically adjusting the knowledge levels of people serves no purpose for the betterment of the game.

What I think it does is gets the conversation focused on something that might allow people to compromise. There have been many suggestions for alternatives to the empty jars that let you get water from a lake or river and can still be immersive while not flooding the world with jars. Why aren't those acceptable to at least most people who ask for jars back? I could get behind something like that, and I think others could as well. If we can really get at the heart of why people are so focused on having empty jars, maybe we can actually make progress instead of just a relatively pointless back and forth.

That would bring jars back, but be a spit in the face of practically every complainer - thus, they're not talking about jars, it's just a shorthand. I'll need some evidence if you want to argue against that

I agree that getting water from a water source is a big thing for people. And I actually support that. I just don't like "infinite" empty jars that are all over the place and ability to fill hundreds in a couple seconds. But when people suggest ways to get water from water sources that doesn't include having empty jars, it gets quickly shot down by someone. Sometimes with a retort about jars disappearing not being immersive or some similar reason.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Sometimes with a retort about jars disappearing not being immersive or some similar reason.

The most lame "argument" I've ever heard. It's the equivalent of complaining about pulling a cup out from behind your back when drinking in Skyrim. The "realism" crowd could get real. No question about that, afic. The game world is virtual, not real, yet it would seem they want every single action the player performs to be as it would be in the real world. This is what game developers mean when they say players have no idea what it takes to make a game. I've asked if we can expect ladder and swimming animations to make an appearance in the future, but am well aware just how difficult such things actually are. Just because FromSoftware can pull off a ladder animation doesn't mean it's easy and especially not easy for an indie developer.

As for the rest, what I think they mean when they say "realistic" is actually natural or organic -- aestethic and not purely mechanical concerns.

 

[theFlu]

Why aren't those acceptable to at least most people who ask for jars back?

I don't know if they aren't; I haven't asked anyone, much less everyone. And I haven't seen anyone providing much info to answer that. "Most" complainers don't stick around long enough to answer nuanced questions, and even if we could capture those people, we'd still have a really small sample.

But when people suggest ways to get water from water sources that doesn't include having empty jars, it gets quickly shot down by someone.

I'm in the indifferent-about-the-exact-method camp; and I don't care if "someone" shoots an idea of mine down - unless they convince me of it being somehow actually bad. For me a decently acceptable way would be to gather, say, buckets of water, and either boil them "quickly" for "safe" murky drinks and then "slowly" distill them for good quality drinks / crafting. No "jars" needed. So I can't really offer much about "disappearing jars immersion" ..

 

[Kalen]

But when people suggest ways to get water from water sources that doesn't include having empty jars, it gets quickly shot down by someone. Sometimes with a retort about jars disappearing not being immersive or some similar reason.

I must've missed those conversations.... I think I've seen one proposal for gathering water without jars and it wasn't a terrible idea. I don't recall seeing people shooting it down.

Actually, I guess there were two, since I made one myself.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I don't know where people think Gen Z don't like jars. Is this a thing people think? I get that they receive a lot of disdain but it typically is the same disdain boomers have for Gen X or Gen X has for Millennials.

Typically it's the Boomers, not Gen X, who hate Millennials. As a Gen Xer, the only generation I hold in disdain are the Boomers because they destroyed the American Dream with trickle-down economics, stagnant wages, and Wall Street shennanigans before I had even made it out of High School.

 

[Rotor]

That would bring jars back, but be a spit in the face of practically every complainer - thus, they're not talking about jars, it's just a shorthand.

As I reach the point of apathy about the subject, it is not about jars .

I am just not eloquent enough to express that I can't walk by river while exploring and pick some water to boil. It is what it is....now.... But it wasn't that way. Would some one new notice it? Maybe maybe not, but to argue one way or the other is just nonsense,... Both ways. Unless one of us has a palantir in your back pocket.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Typically it's the Boomers, not Gen X, who hate Millennials. As a Gen Xer, the only generation I hold in disdain are the Boomers because they destroyed the American Dream with trickle-down economics, stagnant wages, and Wall Street shennanigans before I had even made it out of High School.

Ah, but it wasn't rank and file "boomers." So-called boomers find themselves suffering just as much as any other generation despite idiots thinking mid-century consumerism on steroids marks "the end of history" and that no form of "civilization" possibly could improve on institutionalized greed, ill-will and delusion. It's what passes for "leadership" every generation (and election cycle) I personally find questionable. On a side note, Francis Fukuyama did change his mind about ours being the ultimate form of civilization, so it's not like he's not open to admitting when he's wrong and entertaining new ideas.

 

[Rotor]

Some of yas are skimming dangerously close to lockdown heh.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 9:34 PM

An easier solution would be to tint water green and just say "no"

Make it so #1, but...

The toilet water needs to be a finite amount as well.

 

[EvilPolygons]

As I reach the point of apathy about the subject, it is not about jars .

I am just not eloquent enough to express that I can't walk by river while exploring and pick some water to boil. It is what it is....now.... But it wasn't that way. Would some one new notice it? Maybe maybe not, but to argue one way or the other is just nonsense,... Both ways. Unless one of us has a palantir in your back pocket.

If I'm walking by a river and want some water, I dunk a bucket in it and get some water.