PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

My method is to stay stealthed as long as possible. I sneak up tot he POI and find a way in. 99% of the time there is a way. The other 1% I may need to break down a door. I destroy every single piece of litter on the ground so I can not accidentally hit it. This results in lots of resources also. When I hit a roadblock in a building, I look for the way around. It always exists. I even have to leave POIs at times, load my truck, and return. No problems.

Now on bloodmoon nights? That's when we break out the boom-sticks!

 
meganoth said:
I was making the point mostly about hardware (i.e. the minimum specs), but also about dev time. Corners have to be cut to finish in this millenia as well.
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If the game stays with an empty world like this, it will hurt it more than a longer development. I was harvesting ressources at the Farmer Joes POI from compopack (it´s outside) the whole day. Not a single zombie. Nothing.  That can´t be what they want.

Same for multicore support, people having 6 cores is common these days. More and more games take advantage of that. People will think twice more often in the near future if they buy a game that doesn´t make use of all their cores. I will for sure, i have the power, i want to use it. Also this would mean that we can have more zombies without hurting peoples hardware that are on a budget.

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
If the game stays with an empty world like this, it will hurt it more than a longer development. I was harvesting ressources at the Farmer Joes POI from compopack (it´s outside) the whole day. Not a single zombie. Nothing.  That can´t be what they want.

Same for multicore support, people having 6 cores is common these days. More and more games take advantage of that. People will think twice more often in the near future if they buy a game that doesn´t make use of all their cores. I will for sure, i have the power, i want to use it. Also this would mean that we can have more zombies without hurting peoples hardware that are on a budget.
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That woud be a good suggestion or question to Fataal, but has not much to do with the topic of this thread. Except to say that IF they add more parallelism and decide to continue development for much longer, eventually they might find the time to smooth out some corners they cut. Which is probably way down their list of things to do.

My guess is that they either

A) won't ever touch the minimal speccs and add a few options shortly before gold to adjust things like zombie frequency.

B) adjust the minimal speccs, but only once shortly before gold.

 
Roland said:
Stealth is not for speed running efficiency players. I’ll grant you that. 
 

But then those players miss a lot more of the game than just stealth and feel forced into a much narrower set of tactics than how to respond to an auto aggro room. Of course, they set those limits on themselves and some of them even acknowledge that rather than coming here and complaining that the game screws them over....
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For me, it is not a narrowing of tactics.

It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.

If I screw up, fine, whip out the shotgun and blast their heads off.
*Magic* mechanics that I can't interact with with in game (disable in this case) = mechanics I will find ways to exploit, disrupt or abuse in ways that were not intended by the developer.

 
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Jenshae said:
For me, it is not a narrowing of tactics.

It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.

If I screw up, fine, whip out the shotgun and blast their heads off.
*Magic* mechanics that I can't interact with with in game (disable in this case) = mechanics I will find ways to exploit, disrupt or abuse in ways that were not intended by the developer.
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You can look at it this way. But from another viewpoint there are other events in the game that are out of your control as well, without a discernible cause that you can manipulate:

* The spawning of zombies. Is a wandering horde hitting you because you did something? Can you avoid their attack on your base? (actually you can, but only with the meta knowledge that the wandering hordes are not simulated over the whole world, their wandering is faked only in the area around you)

* Tthe whole horde night. Can you make the zombies just not find you on horde night, or is something you do the cause which you could avoid?

All of those are examples of challenges the devs put before you. If you don't like a challenge you may have to deal with it yourself any which way you like. Lots of people drove around in horde night or sat in a hole in A16 because they didn't like the horde night challenge.

 
Jenshae said:
It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.

If I screw up, fine, whip out the shotgun and blast their heads off.
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its only a lack of cause and effect because you are using metagame knowledge.  If you knew nothing about auto attack volumes, then the effect of them would seem no different than you failing to be stealthy enough.

 
Kalen said:
its only a lack of cause and effect because you are using metagame knowledge.  If you knew nothing about auto attack volumes, then the effect of them would seem no different than you failing to be stealthy enough.
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I would disagree here.  I figured out that auto-attack volumes existed because of this behaviour.

First time I encountered it was in the new high school (randomly looting on Day 2 or 3).  Yeah, I thought I screwed up.  Then I went through a T1 house, and every single room aggro'd.  I told my teammates "19.1 borked stealth.  It doesn't work at all, every sleeper aggros on me, no matter what"

Then I did another POI, and had no issues, figured it was an intermittent bug.

Next I did the the fire_station_01, and determined it was an auto-aggro thing.  I found another high school, found that the same room aggro'd the same way, and decided I was definitely right.  This was all in one play session, maybe 3 hrs total.

Finally, I searched the boards for validation, and came across this thread.

Suggestion:  Make the sleepers in auto-aggro rooms always be out in the open, and preferably (at least one Z) in LOS of the expected entrance, and also some strong lights in the room.  When they break through a wall/cabinet, I know its not LOS.  When they come around a corner and I know I didn't step on trash or otherwise make noise, I know it wasn't me.  Improve the illusion of "they saw me" so it feels like "that room where they are looking right at the door, and there's a bright light right next to it, and man, its impossible to get through that without waking them up!"

I know its a new mechanic, but its effectively an illusion.  If the magician is fumbling around, and you see the card go up his sleeve, you're not fooled.  The POIs that utilize it need some improvement to make the illusion more effective.

 
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Kalen said:
Yup, its still a metagame concept, however.
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It is, but pretty much every time you choose game balance over realism, its a metagame concept.  My pickax does full damage but makes less noise if I'm crouched. My guns shoot more quietly when I'm crouched.  After I read this book, zombies drop loot more often.  Punching a zombie heals me.  An aloe-smeared strip of cloth undoes damage to my intestines from eating a moldy sandwich.  Partial physical blocks act as support as if they were solid blocks.  None of these are bad things, but understanding mechanics are the only way to effectively play a game that doesn't perfectly mimic reality.

You can't avoid seeing metagame concepts.  But we can get better at disguising (some of) them so they feel justified.  Brawler needs unrealistic bonuses so that punching a zombie as your go-to weapon doesn't seem completely suicidal.  Variety in base blocks are necessary, and the game engine wouldn't do well if partial blocks only supported a specific direction.  Damage is damage, and bandages fix damage.

Zombies instantly, magically know you're in the room as soon as you toe across that doorframe, even though they're behind a wall/ceiling doesn't feel justified to me.  Having zombies facing the door, and a spotlight on the door, and that's "why" they wake up, feels justified.

Having every sleeper volume auto-aggro, not justified.  There are (were?) four POIs like that.  One or two rooms max in any given POI, and not every POI even has one?  That seems ok.

I like the concept of auto-aggro, it just needs better window dressing, and needs to be less common.

 
stample said:
Having every sleeper volume auto-aggro, not justified.  There are (were?) four POIs like that.  One or two rooms max in any given POI, and not every POI even has one?  That seems ok.

I like the concept of auto-aggro, it just needs better window dressing, and needs to be less common.
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Fair enough, I can't dispute that

 
Jenshae said:
It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.
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To each their own, but I find that a game that allows for nothing out of the control of the player to be a very boring affair very quickly. Enabling God Mode and the creative menu is the extreme version of this. The game is no longer even a game when you as the player can control every aspect of what is happening. The cause is that something beyond your actions woke up the zombies and made them become aggravated. The effect is that now you as the player must react quickly in a number of ways already enumerated in this thread. For a survival game, in particular, having situations that happen no matter what the player does that the player must then react to on the fly that threatens their survival-- that is a much more interesting game in my opinion.

 
meganoth said:
You can look at it this way. But from another viewpoint there are other events in the game that are out of your control as well, without a discernible cause that you can manipulate:

* The spawning of zombies. Is a wandering horde hitting you because you did something? Can you avoid their attack on your base? (actually you can, but only with the meta knowledge that the wandering hordes are not simulated over the whole world, their wandering is faked only in the area around you)

* Tthe whole horde night. Can you make the zombies just not find you on horde night, or is something you do the cause which you could avoid?

All of those are examples of challenges the devs put before you. If you don't like a challenge you may have to deal with it yourself any which way you like. Lots of people drove around in horde night or sat in a hole in A16 because they didn't like the horde night challenge.
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Roland said:
To each their own, but I find that a game that allows for nothing out of the control of the player to be a very boring affair very quickly. Enabling God Mode and the creative menu is the extreme version of this. The game is no longer even a game when you as the player can control every aspect of what is happening. The cause is that something beyond your actions woke up the zombies and made them become aggravated. The effect is that now you as the player must react quickly in a number of ways already enumerated in this thread. For a survival game, in particular, having situations that happen no matter what the player does that the player must then react to on the fly that threatens their survival-- that is a much more interesting game in my opinion.
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I don't think Jenshae is advocating nothing should be out of their control, that's extreme.  Its the lack of control in an aspect which, in theory, you do have control.

We know we can't control random spawns or horde night, etc.  But stealthing through a POI feels skill-based, rather than random.  As though, as long as you're good, you won't get seen.  And then that isn't the case.  Even if you do your job perfectly, you "fail" to get through without being seen.

I think this is another point for "have an indication".  If the auto-aggro rooms had bright lights, and visible zombies, you'd know you there is no way to get past and adjust tactics accordingly.  Like a room being patrolled by guards where one is always facing the door.  If you know its impossible, it doesn't feel like you failed, or the game cheated you.  It just requires a different approach, and so it seems fair.

 
stample said:
I don't think Jenshae is advocating nothing should be out of their control, that's extreme.  Its the lack of control in an aspect which, in theory, you do have control.

We know we can't control random spawns or horde night, etc.  But stealthing through a POI feels skill-based, rather than random.  As though, as long as you're good, you won't get seen.  And then that isn't the case.  Even if you do your job perfectly, you "fail" to get through without being seen.

I think this is another point for "have an indication".  If the auto-aggro rooms had bright lights, and visible zombies, you'd know you there is no way to get past and adjust tactics accordingly.  Like a room being patrolled by guards where one is always facing the door.  If you know its impossible, it doesn't feel like you failed, or the game cheated you.  It just requires a different approach, and so it seems fair.
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I agree. I already agreed to something like this pages back. I'm fully on board with a visual or audio cue that gives the reason for why the zombies got aggravated that the player couldn't do anything about. I think, in fact, this is probably the third or fourth time I've agreed to this as people come into the thread and want to participate with the conversation without reading the conversation...

 
stample said:
I don't think Jenshae is advocating nothing should be out of their control, that's extreme.  Its the lack of control in an aspect which, in theory, you do have control.
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In practice stealth won't work in an acceptable time frame in an empty field in daylight, no matter how light your armor and how good your training is.

We know we can't control random spawns or horde night, etc.  But stealthing through a POI feels skill-based, rather than random.  As though, as long as you're good, you won't get seen.  And then that isn't the case.  Even if you do your job perfectly, you "fail" to get through without being seen.

I think this is another point for "have an indication".  If the auto-aggro rooms had bright lights, and visible zombies, you'd know you there is no way to get past and adjust tactics accordingly.  Like a room being patrolled by guards where one is always facing the door.  If you know its impossible, it doesn't feel like you failed, or the game cheated you.  It just requires a different approach, and so it seems fair.
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There were already losts of suggestions for indicatiors in this thread. This is a new one though. But if we assume that devs want this as some sort of a trap: If a trap is so obvious, does it still count as a trap?

We have people now who want control (i.e. the ability to avoid it completely if you didn't do anything "wrong") and Jenshae seems squarley in that group. We have people like you who want to be warned, but note this too changes the difficulty of these rooms substantially and does not just give a better feeling. If you want that you need an indication that is noticable only when it is already too late to prepare. And we have people who really want unpleasant surprises in the game (or at least have the signs be not so obvious).

Fairness? If you want fairness give the zombies guns 😁

 
meganoth said:
But if we assume that devs want this as some sort of a trap: If a trap is so obvious, does it still count as a trap?
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This is a good point.

What it really comes down to for me is that regardless of how or why the zombies change from a state of sleeping to aggravation, I can still react in a stealthy manner. This has been tested and proven in this thread. I have started playing with this tactic in my own games of retreating and hiding and then stealth killing woken zombies. It's fun-- more fun, imo, than shooting immobile targets.

 
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Most good games have the "not too easy, not too hard" matra going on.

With stealth, if you could be 100% stealthy all the time, then the Devs failed.

Some people want things that could kill a good game because they don't think it all the way through. 

(Airships are the only exception... of course)

 
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