PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[hiemfire]

This is definitely the wrong tactic to take. TFP wants there to be occasional areas of direct confrontation. They are happy to have stealth work 90% of the time and fail 10% of the time to mix things up a bit. If you ask them to add visible indicators of the reasons the zombies all wake up in that section they might consider doing it as a visual causality to better communicate to the player why it happened.

HOWEVER

We know you wouldn't be happy with just that. You would then insist that TFP give players the ability to disarm and avoid and cancel out those visual cues because it would be immersion breaking to see a trip wire but have no way to disarm it or to go in through a wall and not activate the trip wire but still they all wake up.  Nope. The devs are not going to go down the rabbit hole of doing all of that I can tell you right now. And if you present it as such I can tell you now that Madmole will just say no to the whole idea and just keep it the way it is. In their minds Stealth is pretty much done and adding an indicator that might lead to weeks or months of deeper development for disarming traps and sirens and lights and tripwires.

As Madmole would put it, "We're not making a stealth simulator. It is a zombie killing game with stealth elements."

It was a statement of my opinion on the matter. To restate: There needs to be an indicator that the section being entered ignores the "rules" laid out by the rest of the game or they need to be removed for stealth to be worthwhile at its current in game cost. It is the only mechanic in game that has an 18 perk (14 to 18 levels worth of gameplay) investment to maximize the player's capability in that auto aggro volumes ignore. That is without including increasing sneak attack damage, which is another 5 perk points/levels worth of investment (23 perk points or 19 to 23 levels total) that these volumes negate. To every other build type auto-aggro volumes are just another sleeper volume. To stealth they are a punishment.

At a minimum they should openly disclose within the game itself to the players that these exist so the players can make an educated decision if they want to make use of the perks. Aside from encountering these volumes and repeatedly failing to stealth through them (Learn by Dying, like a gen 1 console side scroller) or "word of mouth" from others who have discovered them, this doesn't exist. Adding it to the loading screen tip on Stealth or as part of the game journal entry on Stealth would cover that, minimally. As it is now they are being disingenuous with the player in regards to how the stealth mechanics function in game, intentional or not. I just double checked both the loading screen tip and the journal entry, neither mention it.

 

[Danidas]

Why bother preparing to be curb stumped into a corner if it is something that you can always avoid by being observant or doing a low effort trick? That is boring as you take away most of the danger of the game. As its much better if your always at risk of it happening and have incentive to prepare the tools, tactics, and perks to mitigate it when it happens.

Note by low effort trick I mean things like going around a trigger, disabling it, or busting through a wall to try and out smart the encounter.

An example with Agility is that you have Knives that inflect bleed that slows down your attackers a long with Parkour that allows you to jump over even the tallest of zombies. So all you had to do was a few swipes of the blade to get bleed going then jump over the zombies before they could back you fully into said corner or to jump out once backed in. Even better would be to jump the fence or onto the roof to allow cover to get out of line of sight to re-stealth to use Form the Shadows to make them forget you faster so that you can then snipe them for the sneak attack bonus.

Not to mention you also have guns such as pistols or with out them a Blunderbuss or 2 as a back up. Now before you cry foul about noise the game already mitigates most of the danger from it. Other fronts are to forgo maxing stealth with muffled padded armor and go for leather or military armor instead to buy yourself more time to escape. As well as borrowing tools from other attributes even if you have no intent on spending any perks on them. For example the Stun Baton is amazing at nullifying threats especially if you get Tech Junky 6 to drastically increase the charge chance.

Glass cannon builds where you put all your focus on offense with out anything in defense beyond a hope and a prayer. Which rely on your ability to kill everything before it sees you so you don't need defense are doomed to fail. 

 

[hiemfire]

Going to be interesting to find out, if they ever release the info, how many people who spec into FTS keep using it vs quit/restart or Grandpa's Forgetting Elixir it away...

 

[meganoth]

Sorry the reply took so long.

Ranger station 06

Got it to load in the prefab editor.

No reference key that I could find for what the different sleeper volume colors are.

Screens are of the location where I got pinned (right of the door, against the corner).

Spoiler

View attachment 15246View attachment 15247

Entry to the section from garage.

Spoiler

View attachment 15248

With Sleeper spawns shown (1st one wide, second focused)

Spoiler

View attachment 15249View attachment 15250

Odd thing is, that if blue is supposed to be not Auto-Aggro and orange is supposed to be Auto-Aggro, I sniped the vulture that spawned on the main building balcony without it spotting me (got the sneak attack bonus).

Thank you.

Since I didn't know what level you were when you encountered that place I tested going through that yard with different levels (artificially increased my level to 20 so my gamestage was 24, identical to a player who leveled up to 10 in 10 days and did not die once.). First some general comments:

1) The garage can actually be left again without a ladder or wood block. Jump on the engine hood of the car and jump out.

2) The zombies were somehow aggroed when you got past a specific point directly before the stairs, not when you entered the blue area

3) The zombies I had all landed on top of the stairs, most of them had to stand up again before doing anything. Zombies have a chance to get propelled out but you need to be very unlucky that both zombies jump out.

Now what I did was I gave myself a quality5 knife, a quality 5 wooden bow, a toilet pistol (i.e. quality 1), iron arrows and 100 bullets 9mm. Got a full set of padded armor. No mods in weapons or armor. 5 healing bandages. Perk-wise I skilled Agility to 3 and all combat perks to 2, both stealth perks to 2, and run&gun to 1. Difficulty Nomad by the way.

Then gave myself xp for appropriate player levels (without using any further perk points I got through this).

Level 10 aka GS 24: Two basic zombies, one stumbled and fell out, one landed a little further. I could easily have backed out into the garage. I also had plenty of space in that yard to run around them (GS24, slooow zombies). I then tried to kill them just with the bow while running around, after a few rounds I took too long to aim and got stunned. So I changed to toilet pistol and simply killed them. I could have used the knife as well, would have been no problem and more silent

Level 25 aka GS 60: Again only basic zombies, this time I had no problem killing them just with the bow. Practice maybe.

Level 40 aka GS 96: This time only one basic cheerleader, the other window was a empty. I was a bit surprised, I had thought lvl40 should be finally enough for ferals.

Level 60 aka GS 144: Finally one of the zombies was a feral. I still could run around in that yard and avoid both zombies, yes, even the feral.

Result: Plenty of ways to deal with this situation. I just tried to run around. Killing them with the pistol is trivial, even with a toilet pistol. If I had perked up parkour I could simply have jumped over the outer wall and have plenty of time to stealth again or kill them while they try to get through the wall. One round inside the yard and I could go out any door even if it had been blocked by a zombie for a moment.

Sure, I was lucky at lvl 40 and 60, there is probably a non-marginal chance to get even two ferals or a glowie. But at lvl 40 and certainly at lvl 60 a single player should have many AGI skills at max and a good SMG in his hand.

Also I was expecting the zombies and could plan ahead what I want to do. Without that knowledge I might get confused, panic and decide to do the wrong thing. Or forget to get out of stealth and run around with turtle-speed. And yes, forgetting to leave stealth happens to me quite a lot.

My conclusion is that you must have had exceptionally bad luck if you were cornered immediately and had no way out. Try it out again and you will probably see that in 99 out 100 cases the zombies would be no problem and you have plenty of time to either run away, run inside the yard, shoot them or even jump over the fence.

 

[Jenshae]

So just to be clear, they have not added in any special "SPAWNING ZOMBIES OUT OF THIN AIR" mechanic or "hack".

I can believe it from the way I have seen zombies spawned in front of me out in the world.

... You would then insist that TFP give players the ability to disarm and avoid and cancel out those visual cues because it would be immersion breaking to see a trip wire but have no way to disarm it or to go in through a wall and not activate the trip wire but still they all wake up. ...

...  In their minds Stealth is pretty much done and adding an indicator that might lead to weeks or months of deeper development for disarming traps and sirens and lights and tripwires.

As Madmole would put it, "We're not making a stealth simulator. It is a zombie killing game with stealth elements."

I find it immersion breaking that the same zombies as anywhere else *magically* behave differently for no apparent reason than, "just because".

I guess it is time to figure out how to make a mod to break these auto-aggro volumes as step 1, then try and introduce traps that won't be spotted the first few times but can be spotted and disarmed after that. 

 

[hiemfire]

My conclusion is that you must have had exceptionally bad luck

This must consistently extend to my looting since I have yet to find a Q1 or higher pistol in my solo saves. My wife found one in our co-op game and that is actually the first time I've encountered one since A19 went stable. I'd also scrapped the truck so that wasn't an option even if I'd been able to get back into the garage...

2) The zombies were somehow aggroed when you got past a specific point directly before the stairs, not when you entered the blue area

I was "crabwalking" to my left after breaking the noise trap when they broke out, is there a possibility my character "kicked" the door frame? "Kick" as in how when you walk close to walls sometimes the players footsteps sound like they walking on the material that the wall is made of instead of the ground they're actually on. Iirc metal "ground" makes more noise than dirt, grass, gravel or concrete.

 

[meganoth]

This must consistently extend to my looting since I have yet to find a Q1 or higher pistol in my solo saves. My wife found one in our co-op game and that is actually the first time I've encountered one since A19 went stable. I'd also scrapped the truck so that wasn't an option even if I'd been able to get back into the garage...

As long as you are not telling what level and gamestage you have I can only nod symapthetically . Are you deliberatly ignoring the trader and quests even in later stages? Because there is no chance in hell you can't equalize such bad luck with a quest reward or a buy. There is no reason to need a pistol in the stone age to deal with 2 basic zombies and once you are in iron age not even the knowledge of imba traders should prevent you from simply buying a cheap tier 1 weapon or better

If you scrapped the truck you probably also scrapped the workstation at the wall? That might also be a stepping stone to get out.

I was "crabwalking" to my left after breaking the noise trap when they broke out, is there a possibility my character "kicked" the door frame? "Kick" as in how when you walk close to walls sometimes the players footsteps sound like they walking on the material that the wall is made of instead of the ground they're actually on. Iirc metal "ground" makes more noise than dirt, grass, gravel or concrete.

If the zombies are already aware of you I don't think this would be relevant anymore. Possibly a test with throwing stones at the distand wall immediately after they broke out of their windows might show if a stealther might have an option without first running out of range

 

[hiemfire]

As long as you are not telling what level and gamestage you have were I can only nod symapthetically

I deleted the game save not long after that event. Lets just say the feeling it caused was too familiar... I do remember I hadn't run into loot from Iron tier yet other than the knife I'd crafted, I was searching for parts to put together a replacement for my prim bow. Iirc build when I went into there was first 4 into agil, then 2 into bows, 2 knives, 3 (max at that level of agil) into FTS. Also had the second tier of the farming perks. (Part of the reason it ticks me off to no end when people start making suggestions that require 30-40 levels and a few weeks worth of game time to get to.) If it matters, was playing on Navezgane.

 

[Danidas]

I deleted the game save not long after that event. Lets just say the feeling it caused was too familiar... I do remember I hadn't run into loot from Iron tier yet other than the knife I'd crafted, I was searching for parts to put together a replacement for my prim bow. Iirc build when I went into there was first 4 into agil, then 2 into bows, 2 knives, 3 (max at that level of agil) into FTS. Also had the second tier of the farming perks. (Part of the reason it ticks me off to no end when people start making suggestions that require 30-40 levels and a few weeks worth of game time to get to.) If it matters, was playing on Navezgane.

Looks like you were about level 10 then and since iron age loot doesn't start to appear until game stage 11+, your game stage should be high enough for it. As game stage is days lived plus the level your at. However in my experience most of the good iron age loot doesn't really appear until game stage is 20 to 30+ out side the rare chance for it.

 

[hiemfire]

Looks like you were about level 10 then and since iron age loot doesn't start to appear until game stage 11+, your game stage should be high enough for it. As game stage is days lived plus the level your at. However in my experience most of the good iron age loot doesn't really appear until game stage is 20 to 30+ out side the rare chance for it.

In my experience most of the iron age loot doesn't pop up consistently till GS/LS 30-40. A part or two here or there before then, but usually for a tool or weapon that doesn't benefit from your perk allocation, which sort-of makes sense with how much sits in the loot table. But it feels awkward when you're looting your 10th or 15th baton, turret or bat part and you're spec'd for bows, pistols or rifles.

 

[Boidster]

I guess it is time to figure out how to make a mod to break these auto-aggro volumes as step 1

Easy peasy. Go through all <poi name>.xml files under /prefabs and in these lines:

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0" />


Change all of the 2s to 0s. That will change any "Attack" volumes to "Active". Or change them to 1 ("passive") for a true carebear experience. Here I am crouched down at the Red Mesa vault room, with a bunch of stealth-killable zombies. No surprises, no threat to a high-stealth player.



Edit to add: if this is doable in a modlet, it's beyond my skills. I was able to get the game to load up a mod which was designed to alter installation_red_mesa.xml, but it did not actually change the auto-aggro volumes. Only manually editing the XML file worked. Of course a robust text processor like sed/awk could fix all the XML files at once for you, if you're into that kind of thing. Otherwise, just hand-edit all 500 POIs and you'll have 100% stealth-able kills everywhere you go.

 

[Kalen]

No surprises, no threat

and no fun!

I kid, I kid

 

[Danidas]

So for added fun change all the 0s and 1s to 2 so that every sleeper volume is auto aggro.

 

[Jenshae]

So for added fun change all the 0s and 1s to 2 so that every sleeper volume is auto aggro.

Are you melee, machine gun or shotgun? 

 

[Danidas]

Are you melee, machine gun or shotgun? 

Nope a Agility Intellect build aka the worst combo to deal with tougher POIs. However my Stun Baton does go brrrrrrr

 

[Lesdeth]

Sneak is worthless because of the ambush mechanic. The only way to counter this garbage is to know every POI and cheese the @%$# out of it. It isn't fun, it isn't entertaining, it is quite lousy design.

What is wrong with stealthing through a mission and thinking? Run and gun is the only way to play this game tier 4-5 quests.

I play on Insane, Always Nightmare, Dead is dead, blood moon 64. I can survive until tier 5 missions, and I can continue to survive if I cheese them all by breaking a wall and throwing grenades. However, why do the developers think this is a fun way to play? Do they lack the comprehension to provide actually fun quests that take tactics and strategy and not just cheese? Light armor is worthless since you take so much damage and stealth doesn't do a damn thing. You are completely pigeonholed in this game and it is sad.

 

[th3s0n1c]

You're not alone. Just recently discussed here:

 

[Ezed]

Sneak is worthless...

You're options are...

Don't perk into it.

Reduce your difficulty

GG

 

[Lesdeth]

You're options are...

Don't perk into it.

Reduce your difficulty

GG

Yes, don't perk into it. That is the only option at the moment and that is what I think is sad about this game... There is only run and gun. I have no issues with my difficulty. I dislike being pigeonholed into run and gun cheesing... It would be much more interesting to rely on tactics and forethought with POIs instead of running into ambushes constantly...

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Stealth is far from useless. There is a ton of POI´s where you can stealth all the time. I play an agility build atm and stealth saves me a ton of ammo. Sure some POI`s don´t work as a whole, but this isn´t Splinter Cell. Even there you couldn´t stealth everything and those games were all about stealth.

I hardly ever run and gun tbh. Mostly because i am in a hurry.

It just sucks that stealth doesn´t work for no reason at some places. It´s to arbitrary, there needs to be an indicator why it doesn´t work. Like an alarm that you trigger.