PC Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[theFlu]

But there isnt.   You crouch to be in stealth and you try to sneak up on a zombie.   It either wakes up or it doesnt.   There is no indicator that shows that you did something wrong.... the zombie just detected you.

There is thematically no difference between a zombie that awakens because it detects you and a zombie that awakens because its in an auto-aggro room... it's only your outside knowledge of the game mechanics that tells you there is a difference.

Sure, I agree. Entirely. The knowledge of these silly game mechanics has been obtained purely by playing the game for myself. (EDIT: Oops, I guess I misspoke a little.. that means there has to have been an indication of "abnormal failure", repeatable, and I guess that means there would need to be a "normal failure" .. I do disagree that much, but no more, maybe.. ) They're silly enough to warrant wanting improvements, no? Just for sake of improvements, if nothing else?

I don't mind "the challenge" of watching the clown car full of zombies just blow up for no reason, most of the time it just makes trying to wake them up easier... I'm arguing that the mechanic IS bad, regardless of how well it is disguised and that the disguise is pretty terrible at the moment.

 

[Aldranon]

The bandits that "stealth" players hope for....

 

The bandits that "stealth" players will rage against...

View attachment 16804 View attachment 16805

AS LONG AS THE FIRST GROUP ARE HOLDING LEGENDARY WEAPONS AND THE SECOND GROUP IS OUT OF AMMO!!!

(Don't make me use four exclamation marks...)

Edit: And, if someone took me seriously:

With stealth, a player should never know the state of alertness of unmoving zombies or bandits.  

-They might look sleeping but they could have become more alert by other noises that just happened in another room.

-Some zombies might be more "fresh" or are turning ferial and are much more alert. 

TLDR: A player should only know what noise they are currently making.  But again, that doesn't include the state of others. 

 

[Aldranon]

Sure, I agree. Entirely. The knowledge of these silly game mechanics has been obtained purely by playing the game for myself. (EDIT: Oops, I guess I misspoke a little.. that means there has to have been an indication of "abnormal failure", repeatable, and I guess that means there would need to be a "normal failure" .. I do disagree that much, but no more, maybe.. ) They're silly enough to warrant wanting improvements, no? Just for sake of improvements, if nothing else?

I don't mind "the challenge" of watching the clown car full of zombies just blow up for no reason, most of the time it just makes trying to wake them up easier... I'm arguing that the mechanic IS bad, regardless of how well it is disguised and that the disguise is pretty terrible at the moment.

You sound like you're looking for a "reality game engine". 

To put you in good company before you imagine I'm insulting you: Albert Einstein, wanted a "reality engine" for reality. 

Everything was going great, until someone stepped on the huge, poopy pile that is Quantum Mechanics.

-Where some "things" travel instantly, no matter the distance.

-Where time is a fantasy and 90% of the mass of the universe, is there... and yet not there.

So your version of reality is what you want... just like Einstein.

 

[theFlu]

You sound like you're looking for a "reality game engine". 

To put you in good company before you imagine I'm insulting you: Albert Einstein, wanted a "reality engine" for reality.

Heh, thanks, I guess. And well, maybe - if I even get what you're saying .. I've loved the game for its simple and straightforward nature. Keeping it simple, tuning the good and relying on "added tricks" as little as possible. This is one of those little irksome changes where I can't really see the reason, and the gain is questionable at best.

Quite like that quantum mechanic "instant travel" .. of a preformated message that had to be delivered by some mundane means, unread, before both the sender and the receiver can now read it at the same time and pretend that the information traveled when they read it...

 

[Aldranon]

Heh, thanks, I guess. And well, maybe - if I even get what you're saying .. I've loved the game for its simple and straightforward nature. Keeping it simple, tuning the good and relying on "added tricks" as little as possible. This is one of those little irksome changes where I can't really see the reason, and the gain is questionable at best.

That 7D2D zombies all pop up and attack simultaneously sometimes, could be a simple game balance trick and that's probably the long and the short of it all.  Almost every game has Game Balance as it's "Prime Directive", so to speak.

However, the point I was trying to make with Quantum Mechanics, was we the players don't really know what the final lore will be with the 7D2D Zombies/Infected/Whatever.

The list of what they could be and how they operate or are controlled even, is almost a complete unknown right now.

 

[theFlu]

That 7D2D zombies all pop up and attack simultaneously sometimes, could be a simple game balance trick and that's probably the long and the short of it all.  Almost every game has Game Balance as it's "Prime Directive", so to speak.

However, the point I was trying to make with Quantum Mechanics, was we the players don't really know what the final lore will be with the 7D2D Zombies/Infected/Whatever.

The list of what they could be and how they operate or are controlled even, is almost a complete unknown right now.

Sure, I don't know the master plan of the universe, let alone of the mighty TheFunPimps. Both of them have tested plenty of ideas and discarded them soon after, and I'm willing to bet that plenty of changes will still be made on both sides, so even the current state of things isn't indicative of much. We're all just shouting into the void for a lack of more pressing things to do. Maybe our shouts will be heard, maybe they won't, but at least we didn't bother to step outside instead of typing into the interwebs.

Forget my silly mine-ideas, and go for fixing some of the already existing oddness to reach a similar goal; like why wouldn't an aggravated zed occasionally make enough sound to wake all their friends? Maybe just by punching a fridge for the frustrated feeling of hunger combined with the faint memory of there being food there, but not having any idea how the handle on it works? Having "active sleepers" trying to live human lives but failing.. like sitting on the couch, trying to use the remote in an infinite loop.. trying desperately to walk out the front door .. sitting at the dinner table as a happy family, staring into the void in each others arms... each ready to shriek in frustration... sure these would get old too, fast, but... so do all silly tricks.

Might actually be ■■■■ creepy to see somewhat well done "old lives being lived"..

 

[Roland]

When that thing is localized to dozen rooms in the entire game,

Well, at least we agree that the “problem” is truly insignificant.

What’s funny about this idea that people can notice an auto aggro room on their own without any meta knowledge is that we know there are auto-aggro volumes and we also know they are rare and yet we have people who claim that every other room is auto aggroing. 
 

I bet they could remove every auto aggro room from the game and we would STILL have people complaining about them because it is so much more ego-friendly to blame a game mechanic than your own failure. 
 

I know this to be true because it has already happened with people complaining about auto aggro rooms in the hospital and the sky scrapers when in fact...those POIs have none. 

 

[theFlu]

Yup, now that the dozen rooms have been a topic of discussion for a while, there's no getting away from the endless complaints about them. Worth.

I don't know about what other people do, I used to do bug verification for a living - I still have a "suspicion file" on my desktop with the poi id "business_strip_old_04" as a suspect. I think that's the little shotty store in the middle and possibly the store room crew on top, but I never verified them as "real enough to report" before the topic popped up in the forums. There might be something fishy about the file, but it has a modify date in Oct '19..

 

[Aldranon]

Sure, I don't know the master plan of the universe, let alone of the mighty TheFunPimps. Both of them have tested plenty of ideas and discarded them soon after, and I'm willing to bet that plenty of changes will still be made on both sides, so even the current state of things isn't indicative of much. We're all just shouting into the void for a lack of more pressing things to do. Maybe our shouts will be heard, maybe they won't, but at least we didn't bother to step outside instead of typing into the interwebs.

Forget my silly mine-ideas, and go for fixing some of the already existing oddness to reach a similar goal; like why wouldn't an aggravated zed occasionally make enough sound to wake all their friends? Maybe just by punching a fridge for the frustrated feeling of hunger combined with the faint memory of there being food there, but not having any idea how the handle on it works? Having "active sleepers" trying to live human lives but failing.. like sitting on the couch, trying to use the remote in an infinite loop.. trying desperately to walk out the front door .. sitting at the dinner table as a happy family, staring into the void in each others arms... each ready to shriek in frustration... sure these would get old too, fast, but... so do all silly tricks.

Might actually be ■■■■ creepy to see somewhat well done "old lives being lived"..

Or... would it be more scary that something (aliens, hive-mind, evil scientist) can control the Zombies and knows where you are (evidence: BM hordes, ambush rooms).  It/he/she wants you dead appears obvious.

Expanding on my hypothesis, this "something" is getting stronger each BM night and can control/create stranger minions each passing day.  The plot almost falls into place as the player must find clues and piece it all together.  Perhaps an end game fight on Day 666 or Day 777?  

Of course, TFP would not spend time to satisfy less than 1% of players who get that far.  Would they?

 

[Aldranon]

Expanding on my hypothesis, this "something" is getting stronger each BM night and can control/create stranger minions each passing day.  The plot almost falls into place as the player must find clues and piece it all together.  Perhaps an end game fight on Day 666 or Day 777?  

Of course, TFP would not spend time to satisfy less than 1% of players who get that far.  Would they?

OR!

A large POI appears every BM night in the exact middle of the map. The player has until dawn to explore the POI to try and stop the destruction of humanity!  At dawn the player has to be out or something bad happens to them.  What they damaged/killed inside the POI stays for next BM as it might be too hard otherwise. 

The POI is chocked full of legendary items as it should be as you're fighting the Blood Moon Horde AND what's in the POI

!!!!  (Note four exclamations were used, making it all very important)

 

[theFlu]

Scary as in dangerous/challenging, sure. Creepy as in spiders, I'm not convinced. Both goals would fit well for the game though

I'd guess the storyline will be designed for max 70 days, but I might be pleasantly surprised.. wouldn't be the first time. Combining horde nights with story progression would be pretty neat, although with the current mechanics, you'd be safe as houses in a massive POI in a horde night... The spawning would have to happen under separate rules, but that could easily be made interesting

 

[Aldranon]

Scary as in dangerous/challenging, sure. Creepy as in spiders, I'm not convinced. Both goals would fit well for the game though

I'd guess the storyline will be designed for max 70 days, but I might be pleasantly surprised.. wouldn't be the first time. Combining horde nights with story progression would be pretty neat, although with the current mechanics, you'd be safe as houses in a massive POI in a horde night... The spawning would have to happen under separate rules, but that could easily be made interesting

Well, you would always start outside the massive POI, with the BM horde hot on your heels as you worked your way deeper into the POI the BM horde would be less of a threat as reinforcements take longer to get to you.

But, I brought all that up just to point out we just have very little idea what is going on with the lore or the plot. 

I suspect that TFP are not positive which direction they want things to go, as yet, but we are giving them possibilities and feedback. 

 

[Danidas]

Well, at least we agree that the “problem” is truly insignificant.

What’s funny about this idea that people can notice an auto aggro room on their own without any meta knowledge is that we know there are auto-aggro volumes and we also know they are rare and yet we have people who claim that every other room is auto aggroing. 
 

I bet they could remove every auto aggro room from the game and we would STILL have people complaining about them because it is so much more ego-friendly to blame a game mechanic than your own failure. 
 

I know this to be true because it has already happened with people complaining about auto aggro rooms in the hospital and the sky scrapers when in fact...those POIs have none. 

As we learned in this thread if the zombies exist and can be seen before they aggro then they are not auto aggro sleepers. Now if they popped into existence and immediately the whole room of zombies tried to maul you with out delay or any sound on your part then that would most likely be a auto aggro sleeper room. But even then it can be hard to tell with out repeated testing or looking at the POI in cheat mode to see how that room was flagged.

 

[Roland]

However, the point I was trying to make with Quantum Mechanics, was we the players don't really know what the final lore will be with the 7D2D Zombies/Infected/Whatever.

The list of what they could be and how they operate or are controlled even, is almost a complete unknown right now.

Whew! I needed that. I'm finally picking up what you're putting down...

 

[Aldranon]

Whew! I needed that. I'm finally picking up what you're putting down...

My body looks human, but my brain was probably formed when a Vulcan and a Klingon had mind-meld while watching sitcoms!  It's a burden, but I did make lots of money from my interesting brain, so I can't complain too much.  

The best, was I could always make people laugh at work and home.

 

[Solomon]

Forget my silly mine-ideas, and go for fixing some of the already existing oddness to reach a similar goal; like why wouldn't an aggravated zed occasionally make enough sound to wake all their friends? Maybe just by punching a fridge for the frustrated feeling of hunger combined with the faint memory of there being food there, but not having any idea how the handle on it works? Having "active sleepers" trying to live human lives but failing.. like sitting on the couch, trying to use the remote in an infinite loop.. trying desperately to walk out the front door .. sitting at the dinner table as a happy family, staring into the void in each others arms... each ready to shriek in frustration... sure these would get old too, fast, but... so do all silly tricks.

These actually sound good, they dont even need to get aggravated about how things dont work just make them generate enough sound that technically all zeds are awake around them.

 

[ImCalledBethy]

I don't think it's that bad.

Once you figure out what to look for (flimsy doors or broken floor blocks), sneaking around the POI is easy. Only the ones that bust out of bathroom stalls, or fall through the ceiling, will force you out in the open.

 

[JukkaZ31]

Just wow... reading this thread (and some others) i'm starting to think being an @%$# is a requirement for working at TFP. The mighty and noble devs can never be wrong and all differing opinions must be shot down and/or deleted. All i'm saying is yall could be a lot nicer and less confrontational with your FANS and CUSTOMERS.

 

[alanea]

Just wow... reading this thread (and some others) i'm starting to think being an @%$# is a requirement for working at TFP. The mighty and noble devs can never be wrong and all differing opinions must be shot down and/or deleted. All i'm saying is yall could be a lot nicer and less confrontational with your FANS and CUSTOMERS.

TFP itself rarely react in fiscussions ... dont judge them by moderator behavior lol

roland have  his own special way to treat people

he can tell whatever he want about "auto aggro room delusions"

but when you walk in melee range of sleeper withou waking him up or even shot in his room  .... and then walk out of room by doors 15 blocks away and trigger him thats what i call auto aggro room

 

[Danidas]

TFP itself rarely react in fiscussions ... dont judge them by moderator behavior lol

roland have  his own special way to treat people

he can tell whatever he want about "auto aggro room delusions"

but when you walk in melee range of sleeper withou waking him up or even shot in his room  .... and then walk out of room by doors 15 blocks away and trigger him thats what i call auto aggro room

Which is actually wrong as the auto aggro flag only comes into the play the exact second the zombies spawn into the world. As a result it's impossible to see auto aggro zombies in a sleeper state and the closest they can come is the awake state if your able to break their initial aggro on you.

The way zombies work with in POIs is that none exist until your just about to enter the room/area the level designer wants them to exist at. At which point they will spawn into existence according to one of three flags the designer can place on that encounter. Which are the default sleeper, very rare auto aggro, and lastly the almost non-existent awake flag state that is the rarest of all. Now as said before the zombies act on their flag the second they spawn into the world and do not change their state with out player interaction.

Lastly the level designers tend to do an amazing job hiding the spawn in mechanic and breaking the players line of sight of zombies literally popping into existence. As for how they do it the system uses a 3d box that is drawn over the whole encounter area and encompasses the intended a long with some of the unintended path to it. So the second a player enters the cube the zombies with in spawn into existence. Also note that no other triggers exist or come into play after the zombies are spawned in.