PC Where is Madmole? Are TFP staying with Unity? Someone fill in a vet who hasn't been here in a while please.

No what and why?
I translated Roland's somewhat long post for ya. You missed the part where its stated: "No help is needed" "When help IS needed, a professional consultant will be hired, not some forum guy".

So the answer to your question if you can help (in any way) is no. And since i know autism, i'll stress to you: No is no.

 
I translated Roland's somewhat long post for ya. You missed the part where its stated: "No help is needed" "When help IS needed, a professional consultant will be hired, not some forum guy".

So the answer to your question if you can help (in any way) is no. And since i know autism, i'll stress to you: No is no.
He didn't exactly understand the kind of help am offering and to be fair i probably didn't spell it out.  Essentially i cam to the forums to ask what's in this thread. 
I'd like to chip in help on the architecture side of things without anything in return except maybe some vague credit if possible.  I've been here since alpha 8 the pacing and runtime have both been so problematic that most their past unmet goals are a direct result of the architecture (which is easy to improve a great fair bit).  They aren't in the mood to hire, i'm not in the mood to work for money for various personal reasons, but I do have a skillset to offer which should generally chill out the fanbase and make everything easier for everyone.  If nothing else, at the very least, if i can talk to the lead engineer whom is responsible for the architecture and saying no to design decisions, I can share non 7d2d code specific advice and general experiences and articles that would fix this up extremely quick.  Practically in an alpha it'd be an immediate improvement with less work per proceeding alpha.




 
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He didn't exactly understand the kind of help am offering and to be fair i probably didn't spell it out.  Essentially i cam to the forums to ask what's in this thread. 
I'd like to chip in help on the architecture side of things without anything in return except maybe some vague credit if possible.  I've been here since alpha 8 the pacing and runtime have both been so problematic that most their past unmet goals are a direct result of this.  They aren't in the mood to hire, i'm not in the mood to work for money for various personal reasons, but I do have a skillset to offer which should generally chill out the fanbase and make everything easier for everyone.
I'll repeat. For autists that works best. No is no. Doesn't matter how many threads you create. We had a lot of "those" already. They all got shown the door. Just trust in the professionalism of TFP and more so trust Roland saying there is no "beef or negativity" within the team. You were argueing it directly. Just don't.

 
I'll repeat. For autists that works best. No is no. Doesn't matter how many threads you create. We had a lot of "those" already. They all got shown the door. Just trust in the professionalism of TFP and more so trust Roland saying there is no "beef or negativity" within the team. You were argueing it directly. Just don't.
Arguing no but I was genuinely surprised/impressed.  But what do you mean by "those" threads though?  There's some things the company does right but there's a lot they do wrong which isn't a bad thing.  Everyone's going to @%$# up.  A professional software engineer doesn't close themselves off  from another engineer offering perspective.  That entirely goes against our professionalism.  It's not even like it would be problematic from a contractual point to at least dialog about general architecture.  it's casual.  A lot of us do this and are supposed to be doing it constantly to improve ourselves and one another.  If we don't do this the industry as a whole dies.  I don't want to be the only one here exploring bleeding edge solutions entirely alone because everyone else has a stick up their ass to actually be a proper human being.  From an architectural standpoint I can say factually no this isn't professionally done, but that's not their fault unless it's intentional.

 
I'd like to chip in help on the architecture side of things without anything in return except maybe some vague credit if possible.


That entirely goes against our professionalism. 


I'm sorry if I'll sound a bit blunt, but there's no "professionalism" if you're not being paid.

I would never, ever, give my professional help away for free.

The only exception could be charity or something like that.

Let the professionals do their job, and you keep doing yours.

This is not a scientific community or a social project or an open source software.

This game is developed by professionals to earn money, and, as icing on the cake, maybe have also some fun. ;)  

 
Has everything been perfect? No.

Is everyone who originally started with the team still with the team? No.

But...there is no dysfunction to the point of requiring outside help for fixes. Even if there were, this would not be the place to look for that help.

Why then has it taken 10 years? The simple answer is that they set their sights higher than they originally thought they could. This isn't scope creep per se but more redefining the standard and quality of the product they want to put out. The delay has not been due to infighting and schizms amongst the team members. It has been due to wanting the title to be more towards the AAA end of the spectrum than it is towards the indie end of the spectrum.

 
This doesn't make any sense to me.  AAA software devs (even outside games) aren't this shut in they openly communicate all the time because that's the way we grow over 90% of the time.  Because go figure software in all fields is actually yes a science.  Regardless if you're in a closed sourced project or not.  Architecture and ideas aren't under lock and key as intellectual property that's not how we operate.  It benefits literally no one.  I'll gladly bring in multiple folks from that domain to make a point.  Hell even blizzard of all companies openly encourages this even so far as to do video lectures on the architectural backends they implement because they know it benefits them in the long run.  The only reason you'd not do this is if you have something shady to hide.  I refuse this as an excuse.  If you actually talk to anyone competent in the field they know better.  These kinds of things are general ideas, not something copyrightable or in any way involved with contractual work.  Actually to clarify I can see extremely clearly what you all need is a simple game systems engineer that actually knows what they are doing.  The problem is that finding them will require you to search about more, probably AAA companies and try to offer a competing salary (they go for well over 100k USD annually each), they will not be as apt to just come to you for multiple reasons.  1 You're not a big title AAA studio with any kind of reputation which would attract them which is a suck because the problems being worked on are difficult and would require one.  And 2 I've seen the job offers put out for lead engineer ect however many months ago that was.  You're advertising for engine specific workers when it doesn't mean a thing to someone that's actually competent enough to fix the architectural issues since really the important fundamentals which are more important and take longer than a week to catch up to is the actual bread and butter.  When the job requirements involve UE/Unity experience that's an automatic red flag.  It shows whoever put up the job offers didn't know what they were doing, and believe me there's tons of work to go around they aren't desperate.  Though to be fair I don't recall a job offer specifically geared towards "game systems engineers" since am sure that's a job title most hardly anyone knows about whom isn't in touch with AAA.  But this is the skillset exactly needed.  Now regardless that far as this project goes.  It could actually bounce back in a year or two max without much issue if whoever the lead programmer/engineer was would do some reading on specific subjects,  If you mention these it should be enough a starting point.

"Batching/Batch processing"
"Existence based processing"
"Structure of arrays"
"DOD"  //just learning it helps doesn't need to be obsessed over the goal is to break away from excessive OOP and get back to fundamentals
"Every single possible alternative to over inheritance style code that CS/Actor tends to beget (which is factually used way too much, though a little may be fine)
^ https://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/contents.html

"Do a little exploring with the ECS pattern or something akin to enforce ideas of batch processing and maintainability just for practice"
^ decent resource that is the backbone of my own work though of course my needs vary slightly:



I will not relent on trying to get the engineer's attention absolutely anyway possible am just trying to be polite about it first and get the rest of everyone else comfortable before barging into one of their DMs.  We know what our NDAs are we can talk like grown ups and even then the NDA isn't a thing to care for nor hold folks accountable for especially on a product that's already released.  I learn, I test, I share ideas, and I teach.  As a lot of us do.  I do this with indies and AAA devs alike regardless how closed a project is or how much they want to think of themselves as professionals, it makes no bloody sense.

I might be a bit harsh here and maybe I deserve some hell but whatever I'll roll with the consequences.  If this game doesn't take some help in this specific but super crucial department in some way shape or form, it will "never" go gold.  It doesn't take a genius it just takes a little interest in doing things better, a little pointer here and there especially over general concepts, a desire to learn, and just a little bit of time really at least to get started and start seeing vast improvements, pretty much within the first year.  I tried all the same stuff you and countless others have tried but eventually got lucky, found some interesting articles, got tired of the usual mess things turned into following basically the same code styles to similar extremes, and grew my skillset.  I hope the engineers aren't of this mindset because if they are that's an absolute disgrace to the entirety of all the game dev community.  And by the way.  Whoever was trying to implement that UtilityAI backend that was partially visible least conceptually in A16, give that dude some praise.  That's actually thinking outside the box a bit.  You don't have to confirm it to me just praise the dude that's one of the few intelligent things i've seen browsing the source.  I don't know why the idea was scrapped.  But I hope whoever was exploring it wasn't discouraged from doing so.

Ah crap, if that last post went through, I'm sorry, i read Jost's post and thought it was ronalds post.  So i incorectly assumed it was him being like that  I guess that exposes a bit of my pent up frustration though.

 
I mistakenly thought the other dude responding was you responding for some reason crap.  Am sorry for that.  But it's fine I'll just get a hold of them directly.

Now that aside that was a fairly honest response it was and even still is aiming too high least for the current skillset.  Yeah it's kinda in the domain of AAA devs least usually but all that's required is really just one guy with a gentle push in the right direction.  It wouldn't take no time to actually rectify all the major problems and even potentially go gold if that push was given.  Without it though it'll be literally impossible no matter how much time is spent which is the depressing part.  I can pass out a few articles and keywords to look up and that's really all that's needed if the person actually cares about his work.  1 year is all that'd take to see fairly decent benefit.  If that timeframe isn't too long to care, then it's inexcusable.

 
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Without it though it'll be literally impossible no matter how much time is spent which is the depressing part.


You would have to explain that. There have been games released in all kinds of states. As there is no legally enforcable right for correctness of a software a company only has to provide all the features it advertises. So how is it **literally impossible** ?

 
Here’s an example of what I meant. Player animations are currently extremely indie-esque in the sense that for a lot of actions there is either no animation or just a basic nonrealistic animation. TFP could just leave it alone since the game is playable or they can take extra time and create a team to make the player animations look better. Thats just one area that has made the game appear more indie and less AAA. They may not ever fully go AAA in all areas (going up and down ladders for instance) but they are pushing their standards in the AAA direction more than they did in the past.  This desire to improve the quality of the technical parts of the game is what accounts for the longer development time. 
 

The last two years they have been focused on environmental art and POI design and a switch from repurposing existing blocks to jury-rig art assets to designing actual art assets that look a lot better. But they could have kept the Minecraft philosophy of using fence blocks to make chandeliers and that would have saved lots of time— but they decided they didn’t want that. 

 
You would have to explain that. There have been games released in all kinds of states. As there is no legally enforcable right for correctness of a software a company only has to provide all the features it advertises. So how is it **literally impossible** ?
I'm ashamed of myself for getting easily frustrated but this is a seemingly honest question.  To answer I could say the code architecture itself, which i guess you could call it the design of the code base in general, it's just unmaintainable to the point adding new features is too painful to actually meet a lot of the design goals.  It's one of those things where the more things get piled on the harder it gets to fix and maintain anything.  This style of design I totally use for game jams but for projects lasting more than 2 months it gets exceedingly painful and adding more people on doesn't really make pumping out features actually much faster least not over the span of years.  It's the game design coupled with the architecture to be more specific.  They don't mix.  A lot of hyped past wanted features and goals literally can't be done as a result of this.  Now this doesn't need to be acknowledged directly but an extremely powerful first step would be to pull things out of Entity.tick and EntityAlive.tick and gradually move it over to what we'd call a game system or game manager.  It's an abstraction where you're doing exactly one piece of logic over a buffer of work (this case Entities with X criteria), this buffer should be maintained and added to and removed before this system is ran to make it easier to do things like batching and threading far as runtime but the real meat of doing this is that it'd actually pull things out of that virtual tick method and actually make it easier to see what's going on.

Or i guess to say this simply though I hate using this expression.  It's impossible to maintain spaghetti.  And I mean no shame by this but the code is spaghetti and past it's limit.  If anyone has understanding of software at all go look at Entity.cs or EntityAlive.cs and actually try to make sense of it.  There's too much nested complexity and weird mixes of state checking that make it hard to figure out when something should ever be called or even what it's job is.  Code comments would never fix this.  I've had a hell of a time trying to wrangle this when helping someone make an optimization mod back in A20.  He managed to get the game in an insanely runtime efficient state relatively but the tricks he had to do even if he was on the team wouldn't really be maintainable sadly (without architectural changes).  Hundreds of zeds on 40 man servers with 80FPS though yeah it had it's problems.  He's more qualified (for the moment at least) to work on the project than whoever's the lead engineer and he's not even a dev but a modder.  It's not because he's a genius it's just because he actually put in effort to learn how to do things better and got a gentle push in the right direction.

To reeeeeally sum this up as to why at it's more root cause.  There's a guy in the world of software with the handle "uncle bob" whom put out a book called clean code.  He's been pushing insanely fanatical OOP is the end all be all kind of concepts on all of the software industry and it's the backbone of why unity uses the CS pattern in the first place, it's why indie devs and devs in mid sized studios have an extremely difficult time making projects like this.  It's not exactly their intelligence it's just they don't know any better and are following convention too much.  A better engineer knows a multitude of patterns and tries to pick the best one based on the task at hand and isn't afraid to refactor.  The code here sadly doesn't have any evidence of that.  It just takes one guy whom is interested in walking down this path, that person alone would be more productive than 10+ typical programmers and it's just mostly because of a difference in attitude and exposure to specific topics.  A lot of modders over the years seem to perhaps mistakenly think that the engineers themselves aren't interested but i've come to think it's probably that it's not their fault but that they are entirely outside our reach to the point none of us can actually give advice when we see issues.  That's a damn shame.  At the least the engineers should be hanging around software communities to exchange ideas, and should be reading articles to learn new techniques probably about at least once every two months ish or something akin.  The code reflects that they are just too isolated and unexposed.  Well that or someone doesn't have the balls to say no to bad direction.  One of the two.

 
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I'm ashamed of myself for getting easily frustrated but this is a seemingly honest question.  To answer I could say the code architecture itself, which i guess you could call it the design of the code base in general, it's just unmaintainable to the point adding new features is too painful to actually meet a lot of the design goals.  It's one of those things where the more things get piled on the harder it gets to fix and maintain anything.


So far you are just describing the state probably half of all commercial software is in. Where programmers have to waste 80% of their time for getting around old code.  It still gets released and then sold for years.

And the thing is, 7D2D is nearly finished and apart from a few armor sets and bandits whose feature set is already in the code due to the zombie cop there is nothing more to come. Even if they would need 3 times as much time to add these features it probably is less at this point in time than to refactor the code because someone on the internet told them to.

I don't see anything here that would prevent 7D2D from releasing. You as software engineer might get nausea looking at the code but the customers, the players don't look at the code. They see the result and while it surely isn't bug-free it already has been a game many people would buy as a finished game outside of EA.

This style of design I totally use for game jams but for projects lasting more than 2 months it gets exceedingly painful and adding more people on doesn't really make pumping out features actually much faster least not over the span of years.  It's the game design coupled with the architecture to be more specific.  They don't mix.  A lot of hyped past wanted features and goals literally can't be done as a result of this. 


That may be the case, but as of now those features are just optional stuff on a drawing board. It may be that you think one or more of those features are needed for 7D2D to shine, but TFP seems to have a different opinion there.

The only sure thing we will see in 7D2D at release will be bandits and the new armor, AFAIK.

Now this doesn't need to be acknowledged directly but an extremely powerful first step would be to pull things out of Entity.tick and EntityAlive.tick and gradually move it over to what we'd call a game system or game manager.  It's an abstraction where you're doing exactly one piece of logic over a buffer of work (this case Entities with X criteria), this buffer should be maintained and added to and removed before this system is ran to make it easier to do things like batching and threading far as runtime but the real meat of doing this is that it'd actually pull things out of that virtual tick method and actually make it easier to see what's going on.

Or i guess to say this simply though I hate using this expression.  It's impossible to maintain spaghetti.  And I mean no shame by this but the code is spaghetti and past it's limit.  If anyone has understanding of software at all go look at Entity.cs or EntityAlive.cs and actually try to make sense of it.  There's too much nested complexity and weird mixes of state checking that make it hard to figure out when something should ever be called or even what it's job is.  Code comments would never fix this.  I've had a hell of a time trying to wrangle this when helping someone make an optimization mod back in A20.  He managed to get the game in an insanely runtime efficient state relatively but the tricks he had to do even if he was on the team wouldn't really be maintainable sadly (without architectural changes).  Hundreds of zeds on 40 man servers with 80FPS though yeah it had it's problems.  He's more qualified (for the moment at least) to work on the project than whoever's the lead engineer and he's not even a dev but a modder.  It's not because he's a genius it's just because he actually put in effort to learn how to do things better and got a gentle push in the right direction.

To reeeeeally sum this up as to why at it's more root cause.  There's a guy in the world of software with the handle "uncle bob" whom put out a book called clean code.  He's been pushing insanely fanatical OOP is the end all be all kind of concepts on all of the software industry and it's the backbone of why unity uses the CS pattern in the first place, it's why indie devs and devs in mid sized studios have an extremely difficult time making projects like this.  It's not exactly their intelligence it's just they don't know any better and are following convention too much.


Yeah, I read about Uncle Bob. He essentially promotes refactoring to death to produce easily readable code snippets. I am not aware that he promotes just one design pattern, but more like using them at all instead of none. So I don't really understand why he would be the cause of indie devs being stuck into only one design pattern or not using them. I also could not find any reference to a CS pattern.

Now one thing I am sure of: if TFPs developers are fans of Uncle bobs design philosophy, it surely won't suffice if a random guy from the internet tells them in a phone call or a forum that that philosophy is borked and they should use option B. And certainly they won't do it when they think (rightly or wrongly) that release of the software is say less than a year away. And even if they know that some part is unmaintainable they won't change it now as long as it works as intended, warts and all.

So, I don't want to stop you, please continue as long as you like, but I think you are too late and too noname, even if you were right. Write a book, get a movement going, maybe that's the way to make yourself heard

A better engineer knows a multitude of patterns and tries to pick the best one based on the task at hand and isn't afraid to refactor.


This sounds to me as if it could have been the "clean code" manifesto. No really, clean code promotes refactoring and using patterns. So what is the difference here?

The code here sadly doesn't have any evidence of that.  It just takes one guy whom is interested in walking down this path, that person alone would be more productive than 10+ typical programmers and it's just mostly because of a difference in attitude and exposure to specific topics.  A lot of modders over the years seem to perhaps mistakenly think that the engineers themselves aren't interested but i've come to think it's probably that it's not their fault but that they are entirely outside our reach to the point none of us can actually give advice when we see issues.  That's a damn shame.  At the least the engineers should be hanging around software communities to exchange ideas, and should be reading articles to learn new techniques probably about at least once every two months ish or something akin.  The code reflects that they are just too isolated and unexposed.  Well that or someone doesn't have the balls to say no to bad direction.  One of the two.


Possibly. Though are you sure the software community at large is already past Clean Code? I mean, you might know for yourself that it is wrong, but thousands of developers probably think as fervently that it is right. Hanging around software communities who usually happily argue about which agile method is the best one would not fix that.

 
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This sounds to me as if it could have been the "clean code" manifesto. No really, clean code promotes refactoring and using patterns. So what is the difference here?
I actually really love your response despite disagreeing.  It really feels human somehow.  It wasn't right of me to drop all of this in an unrelated forum thread.  I've been acting on years of pent up frustration as it's been exceedingly difficult for modders to actually coexist and help fix things but the past is the past especialy if this is to be dropped in a year.  That's my fault as well for not keeping up with that I assumed this would be another ten years.  Maybe if this was five years ago and I had the skill then I do now maybe it'd have been different.  Understanding more context and taking a step back now yeah I deserved the responses I got.

But to tackle this one specifically.  So personally his lectures while I might not entirely agree with I do actually appreciate.  There's also been past drama with people trying to cancel the guy which wasn't a fun situation.  Now refactoring itself isn't a bad thing.  There's some good points he makes.  But he does have a strong obsession with OOP and expects it be used in basically all contexts and has been giving a lot of bad examples and constraints in that book and in general that's been polarizing people to never look at ideas such as batch processing.  If I may I'd like to share some links to better explain this.  So first link is by gingerbill whom has made the odin language so he is a bit personally biased towards more DOD practices but even he's at least seemingly trying to find a respectful middle ground on things as far as i see which is a bit jarring since usually people get into DOD as a sort of traumatic response to realizing obsessive OOP practices cripple a lot of code.  And I was one of those people whom had to gradually come away from that and try to see the bigger picture.  Also apologies by saying CS.  By that i mean "component systems".  I'll post a second link that explains the actor pattern and CS pattern in relation to ECS and their historical significance.  Mostly because it nit picks various issues with the former patterns and i'm not saying any of them are entirely superior in all contexts.  The former two patterns fall within the OOP domain, ECS is generally considered to be more leaning towards DOD and can be a nice contrast.  I do think it's a nice thing to actually learn in depth even if it's not used since it at least promotes thinking on different ways to solve problems.  (huh these aren't posted in the order i expected my bad the videos are in reverse order)

Honestly we do need exposure.  Bad exposure is one thing but it's not right when we entirely close ourselves off.  To put things right a larger forum of sorts has to be created rather than this situation where we end up too divided and unable to bridge build.  Now I don't mean it's always a good idea to say join larger discord servers, there's usually too much social density in those places if they are too active, it ends up leading to pathology, i find a good approach so far is looking for a mix of grassroots ones and ones spirited similar to the bigger ones but trying to get away from the pathology and encourage actual discussion rather than the usual plzbro attitudes you'd see otherwise, maybe not always ideal.  But I never would've gotten where I am entirely on my own it's the social experience i've had with others and the lucky articles i've come across from different perspectives that really opened opportunities for learning.


Also in hind sight if this isn't really the place to be doing this am sorry for that.

 
Hey, if it's 10 bucks and provides entertainment for 4k hours (and counting), I'm kinda fine with a FOREVER game .. :)


For me it's the game mods that are providing that much fun, the base game doesn't. Also, it's "FOREVER Alpha", not "FOREVER game", that's different considering the amount of features it's still missing to meet the definition, but hey if you see a real life Flintstone's car and decide to call it a "car" just because it has 4 wheels that's your choice, but personally I'd rather pay more than "10 bucks" as you call it and have an actual "one in a life time" game experience than pay just "10 bucks" and have something that tries hard to act like a game yet stays in Alpha development stage forever.

 
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For me it's the game mods that are providing that much fun, the base game doesn't. Also, it's "FOREVER Alpha", not "FOREVER game",
Well, first, you took the liberty of FTFY, I did as well; it's a game with features still being developed in the background, sure, but a fully playable game nonetheless, the "alpha" means absolutely nothing to me. Then again, I did grow up playing minesweeper, doesn't take much for me to call a thing a game.

Second, just out of potential curiosity; I don't mod, not even QoL stuff - I keep my game ready for bug reporting. Thus, my 4k hours have indeed been provided by the 10 buck TFP game. Your experience differs, but you have done nothing to convince me from still being kinda fine with another forever game.

Are you really that keen on bandits that you can't call it a game without them?

 
Well, first, you took the liberty of FTFY, I did as well; it's a game with features still being developed in the background, sure, but a fully playable game nonetheless, the "alpha" means absolutely nothing to me. Then again, I did grow up playing minesweeper, doesn't take much for me to call a thing a game.

Second, just out of potential curiosity; I don't mod, not even QoL stuff - I keep my game ready for bug reporting. Thus, my 4k hours have indeed been provided by the 10 buck TFP game. Your experience differs, but you have done nothing to convince me from still being kinda fine with another forever game.

Are you really that keen on bandits that you can't call it a game without them?
It's been what ten years now?  I have to admit for PVE A8 is a personal favorite but really the best balance between pve/pvp i've seen in any alpha has to be around A16 ish.  The new stuff just pulls further and further away from the spirit of being a survival horror or even much a tower defense game.  The zombies are really more of a challenge if you keep their pathing more dumb ish like how it was, maybe some spiders again, the zeds that used to climb walls.  Cops used to be really painful to deal with but this was before armor was so effective and before guns were neither cheap to fire/maintain nor OP.  The modern armor rating honestly feels too high a percentage considering nothing really seems to hit you with some kind of DOT nor seems to have any AP potential for later game to help even the odds.  The design doesn't have direction.  I legit miss being two shotable and having to use mostly crossbolts to headshot most things till the time came to actually whip out the firepower.  Level grinding for gear levels strictly from looting main stashes off quests entirely kills the fun in scavenging every corner and being concerned with any measure of economy.  At least you used to be able to combine gear into lvl600 eventually, I really miss that.  I miss when PVP used to be about economical/territorial wars for example planting traps and steel doors on POIs, prepping for a week or two to finally collect the stuff to build a raid base outside their base, spend hours going to town online and trying to get favorable bag trades (like rust).  I miss the DOTs being actually strong against players when the tick timer for DOTs seem to be shorter yet DPS was higher.  Made PVP more fair and interesting against lower geared players that didn't have 95%+ armor rating yet you're just starting out.  I miss having to work for my base materials instead of looting for it in crates.  I miss there being a meaning to having a base in PVP and PVE.  I miss zeds being a constant casual threat, they used to roam everywhere you went even out in the open.  They used to be scary.  Anyone remember when vultures or even dogs used to chase you down to no end in destroyed bioms and likely one/two shot you?  Even if they didn't kill you the bleed likely did.  You got caught off guard a lot for being careless.  You usually didn't go loud since that attracted hell from around you.  Bandits aren't a big deal to me hell we were told they'd be adding in ally base builders NPCs forever ago.  But these recent alphas aside the visuals seem mostly a downgrade to me from the perspective of having a design that actually retained it's spirit.  And I don't blame them that's the natural outcome to something this old when more hands get involved maybe.  The god knows how many hours i put into this game was in the hopes that i'd actually see improvement over time but that just doesn't seem to be the case.  Hell anymore remember the smell mechanic?  How having food on you made you have a smell radius where zeds within that radius would start hovering closer to the player almost subconsciously and kinda slowly.  But in a way that would potentially spank you if you were too careless as you might accidentally alert too many at once.  Just while roaming in the woods.  You rarely felt safe.  Without even needing to activate feral.

 
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