PC When will the game be released II?

[katarynna]

I bet TFP are pretty happy they got into this crowdfunding/backers phase in the gaming industry before it fizzles out. I know the practice won’t truly die because individuals will always want to be part of something special. But TFP are just another example of how this business model is broken, breeds mistrust and leads to the predation of consumers.I hear three defenses for the ongoing issues

1) "I don't care how long it takes, I know it will just be better when it releases." This is a fanboy response. It a refusal to consider or accept any warranted criticism. They (you) are delusional.

2) “At least these practices are better than OTHER developers’ practices.” Basing a defense of bad practices by comparing it to very bad practices isn't grounds for its justification. They’re still bad practices and need to stop

3) “Well, you shouldn’t have bought it then.” This is victim blaming, an attempt to displace blame away from the perp and onto the victim. It’s wrong and frankly immoral.

It may not have been the intent of the FTPs to perpetuate these bad practices, but they are nonetheless. And the sooner practices are called out for what they are and agreed upon to prevent from happening, by the majority of rational consumers, the better.

1) I am not delusional. I just realize that they have no idea exactly when they will get all the bugs fixed and get this alpha out. In the meantime, I started a new game with a new mod I haven't tried. I not only accept but embrace warranted criticism, such as the limited number of skill points and the effect that could have on sp. Criticism about the creative process and bug fixing is not warranted, imo.

2) I don't consider doing a thorough job with a game they are passionate about and show no signs of abandoning bad practices. The fact that many crowdfunded games die before they are really even playable is bad practice. There is also the fact that if TFP said today, "Forget it. We are done." the game as is is more than worth what i paid for it. I've gotten well over 1000 hours of play time in, which is a bargain for $30 and the game is complete enough for me now. More things added in is just bonuses and has been for a long time.

3) When you buy an alpha game, you are made aware of the fact that it is in development and anything could happen. All you can be sure of getting is what actually exists at the time of purchase. Everything the developers plan on and hope for are just possibilities that we hope for. What you buy when you buy it is what you purchased. You are not a victim, so there is no victim blaming. You have the absolute power to choose whether or not to purchase this or any other alpha game. If the game, as is, plus the HOPE of what it could become are not worth the price of purchase, don't buy it. That is not victim blaming, that is empowerment.

 

[chaosterone]

I bet TFP are pretty happy they got into this crowdfunding/backers phase in the gaming industry before it fizzles out. I know the practice won’t truly die because individuals will always want to be part of something special. But TFP are just another example of how this business model is broken, breeds mistrust and leads to the predation of consumers.I hear three defenses for the ongoing issues

1) "I don't care how long it takes, I know it will just be better when it releases." This is a fanboy response. It a refusal to consider or accept any warranted criticism. They (you) are delusional.

2) “At least these practices are better than OTHER developers’ practices.” Basing a defense of bad practices by comparing it to very bad practices isn't grounds for its justification. They’re still bad practices and need to stop

3) “Well, you shouldn’t have bought it then.” This is victim blaming, an attempt to displace blame away from the perp and onto the victim. It’s wrong and frankly immoral.

It may not have been the intent of the FTPs to perpetuate these bad practices, but they are nonetheless. And the sooner practices are called out for what they are and agreed upon to prevent from happening, by the majority of rational consumers, the better.

I think your best avenue is to develop your own game and show the gaming industry how it's done correctly.

As for how the Pimps got started and how they are developing the game is no concern of mine. The end result of what they do is a game without comparison.

 

[Matt 1977]

I bet TFP are pretty happy they got into this crowdfunding/backers phase in the gaming industry before it fizzles out. I know the practice won’t truly die because individuals will always want to be part of something special. But TFP are just another example of how this business model is broken, breeds mistrust and leads to the predation of consumers.I hear three defenses for the ongoing issues

1) "I don't care how long it takes, I know it will just be better when it releases." This is a fanboy response. It a refusal to consider or accept any warranted criticism. They (you) are delusional.

2) “At least these practices are better than OTHER developers’ practices.” Basing a defense of bad practices by comparing it to very bad practices isn't grounds for its justification. They’re still bad practices and need to stop

3) “Well, you shouldn’t have bought it then.” This is victim blaming, an attempt to displace blame away from the perp and onto the victim. It’s wrong and frankly immoral.

It may not have been the intent of the FTPs to perpetuate these bad practices, but they are nonetheless. And the sooner practices are called out for what they are and agreed upon to prevent from happening, by the majority of rational consumers, the better.

And where is your game mate! You think you know all about developing, moron

 

[Roland]

Congrats, you're #3

There are only two types of people in the world

1) Those who categorize others

2) Those who don't

3) Those who don't understand fractions.

 

[Odetta]

'effi

 

[Roland]

I bet TFP are pretty happy they got into this crowdfunding/backers phase in the gaming industry before it fizzles out. I know the practice won’t truly die because individuals will always want to be part of something special. But TFP are just another example of how this business model is broken, breeds mistrust and leads to the predation of consumers.

You couldn't be more wrong. The Early Access crowdfunding model is never going to fizzle out. It won't limp along because a couple of individuals will naively think they're part of something special. It is has only grown in popularity.

Also there is much less predation going on than is reported. Its true that some studios never realize their vision and the project gets cut short before all goals are delivered but this is not due to unscrupulous or predatory behavior. In most cases the studio did what it could and made the game as complete as they could before funds ran out.

See, you give TFP as an example of breeding mistrust and preying on consumers as if they are liars and cheats and making off with the money while abandoning the game they started. But this is the furthest from the truth. They are working diligently and getting the next update ready to be released as soon as is possible and it is simply your wrongful and ignorant assumptions casting them in the worst light possible.

People like you predicted the demise of TFP and the abandonment of the game every single time in the weeks leading up to the next release and every single time you and those like you have been proven wrong. When A17 drops we will see the largest swell of players ever seen yet.

I daresay that for all your complaining and categorizing of people who support the Early Access Crowdfunding model you too will be playing and having fun with A17 whenever it does come out with never an apology or admission that you were wrong about TFP.

 

[meganoth]

I bet TFP are pretty happy they got into this crowdfunding/backers phase in the gaming industry before it fizzles out. I know the practice won’t truly die because individuals will always want to be part of something special. But TFP are just another example of how this business model is broken, breeds mistrust and leads to the predation of consumers.

You might be right to some degree. Kickstarter.com probably had not enough warnings on its website what "backing" really meant. Maybe they still don't have enough.

Because too many people who shouldn't have backed a game or even expensive hardware did. There should have been a THICK RED warning at the moment when you are about to pay, telling everyone what can happen and what to expect.

Now TFP on the other hand is using this business model exactly how it is intended (with the exception of delivery dates, which is a "feature" of kickstarter that was broken from the beginning as only few creative projects can really set a definite date for their completion).

That you say "consumer" is already showing that crowdfunding/EA is not for you, because there is no finished product to consume, there is only a "building site" to explore. You don't get the business model, you should not do crowdfunding at all. Yes, I'm also #3

 

[Telosbudo]

I appreciate the response, Roland.

 

[Sujietsu]

will quote this again:rapture:

Ha. =P

Hell, I didn't want to be right, but all the signs were there. From the lack of updates in the videos, to the front page and the work load left. Makes me a little sad that the game I fell in love with from 1.1a is being managed so badly in so many areas.

I'll see you in November when the game is out. Maybe.

 

[Jedo]

Makes me a little sad that the game I fell in love with from 1.1a is being managed so badly in so many areas.

You know this how?

That's what I don't get. "TFP is lazy." "TFP is managing this alpha poorly." "TFP has cut and run." "TFP hates their customers." You see only that there is silence. You see only that this alpha is taking longer than you expected. That minimal amount of info means these extreme interpretations? Why not consider what other things could produce the same results? "In trying to implement one of their new systems, TFP encountered huge, gamebreaking bugs. Rather than just postpone the implementation of the feature to the next alpha, they decided to power through and fix the cascade of bugs that happened." (Yes, at other times, TFP chose to take the other route and postpone the feature rather than delay the release of the alpha.)

 

[Sujietsu]

Team size, promoting the game, supporting areas which are redundant, promising countless updates and improvments which get pushed back time and time again for mechanics which either don't work, don't need to work and shouldn't even have been suggested let alone implemented, not to mention the huge failure to put their Steam/Console success forward into an actual improvment for the community.

It's not assumptions when you've been through the entire above mentioned with any of the others old and new that are being let down again and again.

But sure, let me go sort my Mummy issues out whilst you go troll others for being serious. Aren't you adorable.

 

[Roland]

Team size, promoting the game, supporting areas which are redundant, promising countless updates and improvments which get pushed back time and time again for mechanics which either don't work, don't need to work and shouldn't even have been suggested let alone implemented, not to mention the huge failure to put their Steam/Console success forward into an actual improvment for the community.
It's not assumptions when you've been through the entire above mentioned with any of the others old and new that are being let down again and again.

But sure, let me go sort my Mummy issues out whilst you go troll others for being serious. Aren't you adorable.

Team size: Their team has grown and shrunk over time as needed for the tasks that needed to be done. One mistake that studios make is that they hire too big a team and bleed the funds into wages. TFP has done a good job of staying lean and protecting their funds by not just hiring 50 people.

Promoting the Game: Top 100 games played of all time. We have 110 streamers from over a dozen countries and several languages eager to stream A17 because they love the game and report that they get some of their best views when they play 7 Days to Die. Honestly, the game isn't even released yet and the player base is largely comprised of people who at least marginally understand the concept of early access. It would actually be counterproductive to promote the game to the masses as they would not have the patience or understanding of a work in progress. All they would be expecting would be a game that runs without issues.

Supporting Areas which are Redundant: Explain this with more than a title please...

Promising countless updates that get pushed back: There has never been a promised update date since A1.1 and you know it. This line here makes you come off as disingenuous. There have been guesses, and estimates, and delays have happened. But here is the really important thing. Despite the fact that updates A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, A10, A11, A12, A13, A14, A15, and A16 may have been delayed from their projected timelines we still got them. The promise was never WHEN. The promise was the update itself and 16 times now they've proven that they deliver.

Promising countless improvements that get pushed back: Again, many of those improvements are coming to fruition. They may have been pushed back because of their list of priorities but we have gotten them. They talked about AI and pathing back in A7 and now faatal is here and tackling it for A17. Shifting and re-ordering priorities is standard practice in any project and shows that they are having regular meetings on the overall blueprint and making necessary changes as they go.

Mechanics that don't work: When they implement something it is usually just the first version. Many people (possibly you) think that when the devs add something to the game during an update they giving us the intended final version. But that is incorrect. They are experimenting with it still and giving it to us in rough draft form. If it sticks and works well they put it on the list to refine it at some point. Case in point: Electricity in A16. It still needs a lot of work but Prime was asked to shift to Quests for A17. That means electricity is still not finished nor refined and won't be until sometime in the future.

Mechanics that shouldn't be: That is purely your own opinion. I can't argue against what YOU believe to be important vs inconsequential but I can say that if you think your set of preferences represents the truth about what TFP should or should not put in then you are wrong about that. TFP will implement what they deem important in the prioritized sequence that works best. This is not bad management. It's just not doing what Sujietsu wants them to do.

Putting Steam/Console success forward for community improvement: You lost me on this one as well.

You seem to have the same problem many others who buy into Early Access have. You simply don't comprehend the idea of being part of the development process. You may understand it intellectually but deep down inside all you want is to play a game that works. You aren't interested in following the process, learning about what goes into the process, experiencing the ups and downs and experimentation and iterations of features, or in testing and reporting issues to try and help improve the game.

You just feel like you bought a game and expect that game to work. You are probably one of the masses that shouldn't have learned about the game until it was all done.

Damn promotion of the game was too good I guess....

 

[NBornkilla]

Ha. =P
Hell, I didn't want to be right, but all the signs were there. From the lack of updates in the videos, to the front page and the work load left. Makes me a little sad that the game I fell in love with from 1.1a is being managed so badly in so many areas.

I'll see you in November when the game is out. Maybe.

see you in November its sad it take a bit longer but like roland said Joel made a mistake of saying July, i bet if Joel stayed quiet this would have not happened.

 

[stupid]

And where is your game mate! You think you know all about developing, moron

Here's #4 for the list:

4) Suggesting someone's opinion is invalid because they haven't developed their own game.

 

[DaVegaNL]

7 days to die is an excellent game. However, the past few Alpha's have revealed that MM is terrible at making predictions regarding release dates. Hence my initial reaction to him stating A17E might be released in July of 'Oh God, he did it again'.

 

[HexedShadowWolf]

Team size: Their team has grown and shrunk over time as needed for the tasks that needed to be done. One mistake that studios make is that they hire too big a team and bleed the funds into wages. TFP has done a good job of staying lean and protecting their funds by not just hiring 50 people.

I wanna know how many people are actually working on the game. Compared to Rust which has released in early access practically at the same time but had its full release in February this year with around 5 million copies sold andaround 40 people on staff. This game shouldn't be falling to far behind since last I checked around 3 million copies of 7DTD was sold and according to TFP "...7 Days, a Greenlight game was in the top 100 best selling steam games of all-time." That seems like a lot of success for a game that in the past 5 years has been in alpha. If people had more knowledge of what is going on within TFP like how many people are currently employed to work on 7DTD then people may be more understanding and more supportive.

 

[HexedShadowWolf]

redundant double post

 

[SylenThunder]

You're comparing a Pinto to a corvette. Rust is not running a fully destructible 3D terrain. It's a flat 2D world.

 

[ArcticPrism]

And where is your game mate! You think you know all about developing, moron

I think your best avenue is to develop your own game and show the gaming industry how it's done correctly.
As for how the Pimps got started and how they are developing the game is no concern of mine. The end result of what they do is a game without comparison.

Why is this always a defense for someone criticizing something? People aren't allowed to criticize something without being able to make their own better version of it? Criticize game: "You should make your own game!" Criticize a drawing "You can't even draw yourself!"

 

[Roland]

Here's #4 for the list: 4) Suggesting someone's opinion is invalid because they haven't developed their own game.

Why is this always a defense for someone criticizing something? People aren't allowed to criticize something without being able to make their own better version of it? Criticize game: "You should make your own game!" Criticize a drawing "You can't even draw yourself!"

Well technically people aren’t criticizing the game in this thread. They are criticizing the business practices of the company and many of the criticisms are pretty naive— almost as if the people making them really only know how to use a video game for leisure rather than how to use a video game for business. Others do seem to understand basic principles of business but are making assumptions based on what they can see having no knowledge of the inner workings of TFP.

TFP didn’t set up these forums to discuss themselves. They set them up to discuss the game. We get to see behind the curtain for the game but we don’t get to see the day to day operation of the owners and employees of the company. And when I say “we” I mean you guys. I see most of it and can attest that the developers are not lazy or incompetent or sad because of forum criticism, or dishonest. They listen to community feedback but have team design meetings where they hash out the pros and cons and come to consensus on changes. They do have a project manager and they are following a blueprint that they actively monitor and edit as necessary. There is a lot of work that throwing more people at (especially now) won’t be effective.

So in regards to criticism of the game I agree that you don’t need experience running your own company to give good feedback. It’s probably a good idea that someone who wants to comment about the game HAS played it. But in regards to criticism about company workings so much that is voiced is just ignorant and inaccurate drivel and I think that if your experience with the business end of video games is limited to purchasing at retail then you’re just making guesses and a lot of the guesses are really stupid guesses....