PC What was the point of the water change?

[brum]

After reading some of the replies and tips.. I am now of the opinion that it's not really a balancing issue, as water is indeed fairly easy to get; the main issue is that the game does not explain how to do it.

Case in point, you have to have empty hands while standing above water to drink it; this is the kind of thing most people would not try. I have not seen the game write or tell me in any way that you can drink from bodies of water.

The same applies to some other aspects, like being able to get antibiotics (honey) from tree stumps. I just destroyed a few, and i didn't get honey, it just gives you a bit of wood, so from that point on i didn't touch them, until i read up about them on wikipedia.

I think a mark of a good game is that it conveys this kind of information to you in some way; so that you don't have to play it with wikipedia open. 

 

[meganoth]

@brum Have you checked the journal?

 

[Roland]

After reading some of the replies and tips.. I am now of the opinion that it's not really a balancing issue, as water is indeed fairly easy to get; the main issue is that the game does not explain how to do it.

Case in point, you have to have empty hands while standing above water to drink it; this is the kind of thing most people would not try. I have not seen the game write or tell me in any way that you can drink from bodies of water.

The same applies to some other aspects, like being able to get antibiotics (honey) from tree stumps. I just destroyed a few, and i didn't get honey, it just gives you a bit of wood, so from that point on i didn't touch them, until i read up about them on wikipedia.

I think a mark of a good game is that it conveys this kind of information to you in some way; so that you don't have to play it with wikipedia open. 

Well, the mark of a finished and polished game at any rate. There are quite a few good tips along these lines you can scroll through during the loading screen while waiting for your world to generate but I know communicating things like this is something they plan to get to before the game goes gold. As far as the water drinking is concerned it may just be the victim of it being a function of the game since the beginning but then was removed for a time and in A21 it came back. If there really is nothing about it in the journal or in the loading screen tips then it is surely an oversight.

It is pretty funny watching brand new people play and seeing how difficult it is for them to figure out things that are second nature to people who have followed the development of the game so you are correct that this is an area that must be improved before the game can be considered done.

 

[Maharin]

I'm surprised there isn't a version of this thread titled:

Returning to the game after about 8 days. I don't get why nothing has changed.

 

[JRaskal]

As far as I can tell, the water and recipe system were both changed to slow down progression, especially in the early game. At least that's the effect it definitely had on my games.

To me it is a questionable decision, to make playthroughs slower, grindier, and more RNG focused.

 

[Ramethzer0]

As far as I can tell, the water and recipe system were both changed to slow down progression, especially in the early game. At least that's the effect it definitely had on my games.

To me it is a questionable decision, to make playthroughs slower, grindier, and more RNG focused.

Previously to this, it was easier to speed through the early game going right to mid.  Many reported (both new players and veterans) would swear that the survival aspect of the game was somewhat lost.   Now, its a thing you can feel.  In my humble opinion, I felt it was a good change.  It also adds a little bit of weight to the looting perks in the PER tree.

If you want to combat that change, you could toggle your loot quality/quantity in your options settings, and/or check out what a perception build feels like.

 

[JRaskal]

Previously to this, it was easier to speed through the early game going right to mid.  Many reported (both new players and veterans) would swear that the survival aspect of the game was somewhat lost.   Now, its a thing you can feel.  In my humble opinion, I felt it was a good change.  It also adds a little bit of weight to the looting perks in the PER tree.

If you want to combat that change, you could toggle your loot quality/quantity in your options settings, and/or check out what a perception build feels like.

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

 

[Ramethzer0]

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

While I wont challenge your opinion, I would challenge that it did bring back a focus on older gameplay that needed fine tuning.  For instance, with the water scarcity and combat wounds, I have to be a lot more wary of wellness again.   This was something that was very much lost in A17 when the old perk system went away.

And the skill versus luck thing is a complex issue.   Skill is something that feels more applicable to the efficiency in killing zeds, and the hoarding resources.  It doesn't really have much effect outside of that.  Everything else is about familiarity and game knowledge.   If you're a veteran and you find that you're constantly running a treadmill of similar and familiar content, then of course its going to feel boring.   Luck seems to apply more to loot and its quality, and while that can be a harsh mistress, there are plenty of examples of folks that have found the opposite to be true.   Case in point, the guy who ran around and focused entirely on looting books so they could skip the early game gear crunch.   It goes both ways.

I mean you pick and choose your battles still, and that is the essence of action.  And if you feel if that is still tedious and boring maybe its time to move on?

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

To each their own. I prefer the new system because it adds variety to my play throughs and gives me access to recipes I typically did not unlock in previous versions.  The thing I liked the least during the experimental was how slow vehicle progression was. I haven’t played enough of the release version to know where this ended up. 

 

[JRaskal]

While I wont challenge your opinion, I would challenge that it did bring back a focus on older gameplay that needed fine tuning.  For instance, with the water scarcity and combat wounds, I have to be a lot more wary of wellness again.   This was something that was very much lost in A17 when the old perk system went away.

And the skill versus luck thing is a complex issue.   Skill is something that feels more applicable to the efficiency in killing zeds, and the hoarding resources.  It doesn't really have much effect outside of that.  Everything else is about familiarity and game knowledge.   If you're a veteran and you find that you're constantly running a treadmill of similar and familiar content, then of course its going to feel boring.   Luck seems to apply more to loot and its quality, and while that can be a harsh mistress, there are plenty of examples of folks that have found the opposite to be true.   Case in point, the guy who ran around and focused entirely on looting books so they could skip the early game gear crunch.   It goes both ways.

I mean you pick and choose your battles still, and that is the essence of action.  And if you feel if that is still tedious and boring maybe its time to move on?

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

 

[meganoth]

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

Some people also believe poker is a game of luck . Start a new game and put 2 perk points into INT so that you can immediately put 2 other perk points into lockpicking (yes, lockpicking, this is not a mistake). Then just loot lots of mailboxes or look for magazines. I guarantee you that you will have a forge in no time and your engineering crafting skill will be ahead of all the other crafting skills that you didn't put perk points into. 

And you are not stuck. You can buy or find steel clubs long before any demo turns up even if you can't craft them.

 

[Kalen]

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

I doubt the change was intended to be overcome with skill or luck.  I would guess the change was intended to make you have to think about water.  In the old system, you didn't have to think about it at all.... you passively solved your early game water issues with barely a thought.   Now, its still not terribly difficult to solve your water issues, but you do have to think about it for a bit in the early game.   If that was the intent of the change, then I'd say it was successful.

I still have issues with the change from a realism perspective, which I've brought up in other threads, but overall, I'd say the change has improved the early game experience.  In a survival game, you should have to think about food & water.

 

[Ramethzer0]

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

I've never been in a situation where I had to smack a demo with a wooden club, lol.    That just sounds ridiculous.   Also, the crafting books you find are contextual to the perks you have already filled in.

I don't even think were playing the same game at this point.   It feels like you're just repeating your argument without taking anything into consideration.

 

[RStarphoenix]

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

You are not actually at the mercy of RNG as much as you think. Whatever crafting books you find (in the case of clubs & bats, Heavy Hitters) are tied into the Pummel Pete perk combined with some help from Lucky Looter. If you are a perfect 0 in all the perks, Lucky Looter will boost your odds of everything via RNG (so you'll find a little bit of everything). But if you pump a point or two into Pummel Pete, it skews the books in favor of Heavy Hitters (you may still find others, but your odds are much improved). So you can still take the perks you did in Alpha 20 and earlier to still get the better quality clubs/bats, just not in the method.

Same is true for workstation books (the game even tells you Lockpicking + Engineering perks will skew books in favor of Forge Ahead books to speed up getting those workstations build). Same idea for all the other things in the game now.

While there is still RNG in everything, we do have a measure of control over it in Alpha 21 by choosing our perks to nudge the loot tables in the direction(s) we want.

 

[JRaskal]

You are not actually at the mercy of RNG as much as you think. Whatever crafting books you find (in the case of clubs & bats, Heavy Hitters) are tied into the Pummel Pete perk combined with some help from Lucky Looter. If you are a perfect 0 in all the perks, Lucky Looter will boost your odds of everything via RNG (so you'll find a little bit of everything). But if you pump a point or two into Pummel Pete, it skews the books in favor of Heavy Hitters (you may still find others, but your odds are much improved). So you can still take the perks you did in Alpha 20 and earlier to still get the better quality clubs/bats, just not in the method.

Same is true for workstation books (the game even tells you Lockpicking + Engineering perks will skew books in favor of Forge Ahead books to speed up getting those workstations build). Same idea for all the other things in the game now.

While there is still RNG in everything, we do have a measure of control over it in Alpha 21 by choosing our perks to nudge the loot tables in the direction(s) we want.

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

 

[Ramethzer0]

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

No, that's not what he said at all.   It's not what either of us said.    You lept so far past the goalpost it confirmed my suspicions.

 

[Roland]

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

The progression is barely slower for those who like to rush. In fact, there are threads here calling for a nerf to the perk boost for finding the mags that you need because it is too much of a boost. 
 

It is true that the devs are altering things to make it so players spend some time at each stage of development. But it is a far cry from being so slow and tedious of a progression that it is losing public appeal. What it really sounds like is that you want to skip the whole early game and get right to the top tier building materials and capabilities from the start.  If that’s the case then why not just enable the creative menu and play the aspect of the game you like best without any hindrance?

The fact is that this is a game about progression and as the game gets polished it is likely going to get harder to skip the progression aspect of the game like you could in times past. Just because you skipped to the good stuff easily in the past doesn’t mean the game was ever intended to be played that way. Why should the devs allow people to ignore the progression piece of the game if progressing is one of the main points?  
 

You want a sandbox. So enable sandbox mode and have at it. Everything you find tedious melts away once the creative menu is turned on. Do it and leave the default survival game to those who actually enjoy the journey of becoming an epic character over a moderate period of time. The vast majority of people here are actually hoping for changes or options that will lengthen the progression even more (nerfing quest rewards, nerfing magazine perk boost, etc). You already have the option tailor made to the playstyle you want. Flip that switch. Creative Menu. Go. 

 

[Arez]

A21 newb here.

Last week or so I downloaded and started playing A16.4, just to get a feeling for the flavor.

So I'm out exploring, looting as I work my way from the desert to the forest, not really paying attention. I grab the glass jars I had picked up along the way and filled them up in a river...again, not really paying attention. I eventually find a group of houses and one of them has a cooking pot, so I thought it was a perfect time to cook me up some fresh water. 

I click the max button on the murky water in the campfire and it said "52". Day 2 and I have 52 jars of fresh water? 

No wonder everybody is losing their minds over the empty jars. Was thirst ever a concern before the water changes?

 

[Old Crow]

A21 newb here.

Last week or so I downloaded and started playing A16.4, just to get a feeling for the flavor.

So I'm out exploring, looting as I work my way from the desert to the forest, not really paying attention. I grab the glass jars I had picked up along the way and filled them up in a river...again, not really paying attention. I eventually find a group of houses and one of them has a cooking pot, so I thought it was a perfect time to cook me up some fresh water. 

I click the max button on the murky water in the campfire and it said "52". Day 2 and I have 52 jars of fresh water? 

No wonder everybody is losing their minds over the empty jars. Was thirst ever a concern before the water changes?

It's more of a case of not having a way to gather and carry water in a realistic way anymore. On the one hand, not having empty jars brings things in line with other things, as using oil, gasoline, or food doesn't leave behind an empty container. On the other hand, doing something so unrealistic doesn't make sense, and removing them and adding dew collectors didn't really fix the problem the Fun Pimps believed we were having. Water is just as easy to get as it was prior to the removal of jars, it's just easy in a different way now.

And on the third hand (which is my hand), TFP only seem to care about and add something realistic, if it's realism that is detrimental to the player. Beneficial realism? They're not so interested in it. That's what I find annoying about it.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

It's more of a case of not having a way to gather and carry water in a realistic way anymore.

Please. The relative scarcity of water in A21 is what most people have been complaining about. This is obvious from all of the posts with people moaning about being thirsty, not having enough water for duct tape, problems with water in MP, etc.  Besides, the only reason anyone professes to care about a "realistic way" to gather and carry water is because of its importance to certain recipes. If water was only needed for survival, players would be fine with what they scavenged . The inability to gather water from rivers and lakes is just an abstraction to further gameplay--in the same way that the game does not have a weight limit for what you can carry.

Consider this thought experiment:  instead of changing jars or the availability of water TFP simply changed the non-cooking crafting recipes and replaced water with some other item with similar scarcity as water in A21. Duct tape would still be harder to come by early game and explosive arrows, etc. would still be harder to mass produce.  In this scenario, most of the people complaining about water and jars would still be complaining. Because the issue is not "realism" but how the changes affected the playstyle of certain players. Now, no doubt some people would argue that it was not "realistic" to replace water with whatever the new ingredient is but the "realism" argument is just a crutch.

What's important is not whether the game is realistic but whether it's fun to play. As currently designed, the player is required to make choices early game due to a limited resource--water. The player must choose whether water will be used for cooking or crafting. They no longer have an infinite supply to make as much duct tape or whatever else early game. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing about the balance TFP has struck here but it has very little to do with "realism" and everything to do with scarcity.