PC What was the point of the water change?

[meilodasreh]

what about "friendly fire" then?

Maybe they get damaged when the player is fighting zombies around the base,

and the dew collectors accidentally get hit by maybe a "stray" pellet from a shotgun shell.

That would do some amount of damage to them, probably even without the player realizing he did hit it, because most of the pellets did actually hit the zombie.

 

[Gideon]

You eat the jar, and then it evaporates out of your pores and from your breath. Later, it condenses back into jar form with the dew collector.

 

[ZehMatt]

Removing glass jars was one of the biggest mistakes done to this game, nothing can change my mind on that. Having to use mods to "fix" a game is quite crazy, most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods, what kind of nonsense expectation is that? Also this is not about realism but immersion, glass jars vanishing is just dumb, also having played earlier versions knowing what it was like to have them makes this even worse, glass jars had a perfect place in this game, to collect and cook water, what exactly is wrong with that? The only thing that should have been changed is that cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water, just keep it murky and everything would be fine with the new way of getting clean water, why can't we put the collected clean water in glass jars? Every god damn update 2 good things are added and 10 good things are being destroyed, when I first discovered this game I had really high hopes for it, those hopes are long gone.

 

[Tom Stephens]

You eat the jar, and then it evaporates out of your pores and from your breath. Later, it condenses back into jar form with the dew collector.

Yep, the jars out-gas from us as silane and CO2 (no PET-ting allowed).  But that kinda gas (just like methane) comes out of more than just pores.  Oh, and using or writing mods to change, add or re-introduce features to the game is by design.  Call it 'meta' if you like, but that process is WAD as far as I'm concerned.  And there ain't nuthin' unhealthy about introducing ourselves to a little XML by digging around in ../data/config.

In our last game the first 3 of our >15 dew collectors were standing openly in the driveway of our residential home-turned-crafting base. Nothing around them at all, the screamer spike traps were all directly on the house walls. In about 50-60 days of playing not one of them got destroyed.

I elevate everything I can, which really is *everything* in this game.  In Fallout 4, you can use planters to put your crops and even water pumps on the roof behind protection, which you do because settlement attackers use RPGs and grenades a lot.  Base design in this game should already be looking to the arrival of ranged attackers with explosives.

 

[Syphon583]

most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods

This is a ridiculous statement. While many people might not know how to install mods, it's an incredibly easy process that takes a 2 minute google search or youtube video to figure out.

cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water

So you're solution is to trade one unrealistic/dumb/"whatever you want to call it" game mechanic for another? That change would be 1000 times worse IMO.

 

[meganoth]

Removing glass jars was one of the biggest mistakes done to this game, nothing can change my mind on that. Having to use mods to "fix" a game is quite crazy, most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods, what kind of nonsense expectation is that? Also this is not about realism but immersion, glass jars vanishing is just dumb, also having played earlier versions knowing what it was like to have them makes this even worse, glass jars had a perfect place in this game, to collect and cook water, what exactly is wrong with that? The only thing that should have been changed is that cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water, just keep it murky and everything would be fine with the new way of getting clean water, why can't we put the collected clean water in glass jars? Every god damn update 2 good things are added and 10 good things are being destroyed, when I first discovered this game I had really high hopes for it, those hopes are long gone.

No, you don't **have to** mod. Most people notice stuff they don't like in a game, shrug, and continue. If it is too much stuff they recognize that the game isn't for them and stop playing that game. Modding is just another alternative where you can reduce stuff you don't like.

It seems you have the game since 2017 at least. Has it taken you 5 years to notice that things can change and having played earlier versions makes those changes stick out ? When you buy into EA when the game is far from finished you have to expect that.

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

 

[meilodasreh]

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

Very good point actually, that's how it should work imo.

Finding an empty container/bottle/jerrycan/whatever that can be used to collect and carry water would be a basic survival element, and also a sadly common thing to find even in today's pre-apocalyptic world (ok might be a bit too pessimistic here - hopefully)

These could be used for scrapping for polymer after use,

and also automatically turn into scrap after a certain amount of uses - to simulate some kind of weardown system.

Different sizes of them would also come in handy, so that you could only collect this or that amount of water/fuel/whatever at a time,

but then it would maybe also lead into new "nonsense inconsistencies" again in the context of stack sizes.

To prevent abundance they could take very long to be crafted and/or use lots of resources (like the dew collector already does, what is it, a hundred scrap polymer?)

And also crafted ones could have a way lower durability than found ones, so they could be reused only once or twice before worn out and give only a little amount of reusable scrap.

 

[Riamus]

Very good point actually, that's how it should work imo.

Finding an empty container/bottle/jerrycan/whatever that can be used to collect and carry water would be a basic survival element, and also a sadly common thing to find even in today's pre-apocalyptic world (ok might be a bit too pessimistic here - hopefully)

These could be used for scrapping for polymer after use,

and also automatically turn into scrap after a certain amount of uses - to simulate some kind of weardown system.

Different sizes of them would also come in handy, so that you could only collect this or that amount of water/fuel/whatever at a time,

but then it would maybe also lead into new "nonsense inconsistencies" again in the context of stack sizes.

To prevent abundance they could take very long to be crafted and/or use lots of resources (like the dew collector already does, what is it, a hundred scrap polymer?)

And also crafted ones could have a way lower durability than found ones, so they could be reused only once or twice before worn out and give only a little amount of reusable scrap.

No, thank you.  I am very happy not to deal with jars and would hate to deal with all those other containers.  The only real reason people seem to not like getting rid of jars is that it isn't immersive and they can't fill a ton on day 1 or 2.  Neither is really such a big deal, imo.  Water is easy to get, even now.  In my current game, I even forgot about building dew collectors because there wasn't any point in a 2 player game.  As for immersion, there are so many things in this game that are not immersive that trying to play the game in such a way is futile as it is.  I would choose gameplay over realism or even immersion in this game.

Jars won't ever make a return except on mods.  What could happen is to have alternative options added for getting water that do not include jars, such as a water pump.  They haven't said they would add anything like that but that way least has a chance, where jars do not.

 

[Roland]

Removing glass jars was one of the biggest mistakes done to this game, nothing can change my mind on that. Having to use mods to "fix" a game is quite crazy, most people don't even know how to open the file explorer let alone install mods, what kind of nonsense expectation is that? Also this is not about realism but immersion, glass jars vanishing is just dumb, also having played earlier versions knowing what it was like to have them makes this even worse, glass jars had a perfect place in this game, to collect and cook water, what exactly is wrong with that? The only thing that should have been changed is that cooking murky water no longer turns it to clean water, just keep it murky and everything would be fine with the new way of getting clean water, why can't we put the collected clean water in glass jars? Every god damn update 2 good things are added and 10 good things are being destroyed, when I first discovered this game I had really high hopes for it, those hopes are long gone.

What's funny is that I started playing the District Zero mod for 7 Days to Die which replaces all the zombies with droids. It's great!

Except....as soon as I noticed glass jars in loot and that drinking returned a glass jar, I felt annoyed. I just throw them on the ground as soon as I notice them in my inventory and it sucks that they are taking up a position in loot containers. I'm just the opposite. After playing without and fully accepting the condition I can't stand to go back and play with them. As the stack of glass jars slowly builds it just feels like opening the creative menu and giving myself water....

 

[Jugginator]

What's funny is that I started playing the District Zero mod for 7 Days to Die which replaces all the zombies with droids. It's great!

Except....as soon as I noticed glass jars in loot and that drinking returned a glass jar, I felt annoyed. I just throw them on the ground as soon as I notice them in my inventory and it sucks that they are taking up a position in loot containers. I'm just the opposite. After playing without and fully accepting the condition I can't stand to go back and play with them. As the stack of glass jars slowly builds it just feels like opening the creative menu and giving myself water....

Yeah sadly not everything is going to please everyone. It's about doing what's best for the majority of players and trying to compromise as possible. On the other hand, all of my friends reacted with a (or similar response), "Thank god I was sick of throwing them away because I was always full of murky water anyway". It was something most players threw away and the empty jars were impossible to balance, so it's a win. 

 

[Jost Amman]

"Be water my friend!"  :heh:

 

[BFT2020]

Very good point actually, that's how it should work imo.

Finding an empty container/bottle/jerrycan/whatever that can be used to collect and carry water would be a basic survival element, and also a sadly common thing to find even in today's pre-apocalyptic world (ok might be a bit too pessimistic here - hopefully)

These could be used for scrapping for polymer after use,

and also automatically turn into scrap after a certain amount of uses - to simulate some kind of weardown system.

Different sizes of them would also come in handy, so that you could only collect this or that amount of water/fuel/whatever at a time,

but then it would maybe also lead into new "nonsense inconsistencies" again in the context of stack sizes.

To prevent abundance they could take very long to be crafted and/or use lots of resources (like the dew collector already does, what is it, a hundred scrap polymer?)

And also crafted ones could have a way lower durability than found ones, so they could be reused only once or twice before worn out and give only a little amount of reusable scrap.

That's fine if this game was simply a survival simulator......but it isn't, it's a hybrid.

 

[meilodasreh]

Why would that be an argument against my idea? I 'm just talking about the survival aspect of the game, which is obviously there, and all other parts like combat, exploring and so on aren't affected by it.

Aside that, yes I know, the other/main reason was to reduce inventory clutter.

Taking away a basic survival element (collect and carry water from any available source) from a not-only survival game wasn't the primary idea of course.

And I agree the "anti-clutter part" kind of works...well I'm still cluttered pretty good with stuff I don't want when I wrench down/harvest stuff, with things what have a pretty limited use in the game, like headlights, grass, later on also iron pipes, when I just want the springs. Even cloth still gets an annoying abundance over time.

...well in the end with everything I might have gathered enough already.

If they really want to reduce inventory clutter, a system would be nice where you can "check out" stuff that you don't want to auto-pickup, that would be nice.

And rethinking some stack sizes would also help greatly.

Anyway, just my opinion. I know the old system, I have tried the new system, I understand the advantages and disadvantages of both, and still,

I like the old system better. That's how I feel.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to try and put an objective weight on the pros and cons, like "the game is this or that and that's because why" in this case, to try to convince somebody that the changes did make the game objectively better than before.

It's different, yes. Whether it's better or worse, that can only be decided on a personal/subjective level.

 

[RipClaw]

Except....as soon as I noticed glass jars in loot and that drinking returned a glass jar, I felt annoyed. I just throw them on the ground as soon as I notice them in my inventory and it sucks that they are taking up a position in loot containers.

Robocop should arrest you for littering. The position is now filled by old sandwitches and scraps of rotten meat. Empty jars were more useful, in my opinion.

After playing without and fully accepting the condition I can't stand to go back and play with them.

And other players mod them back in because they want them and hate the new mechanics.

I have accepted that the empty glasses are gone and have a dozen dew collectors to cover my need for water.

Of course, this also attracts many screamers which is just annoying. It's like the guy who roams around the office with his coffee mug, always wanting to make small talk and keep people from working. At least you can shoot the screamers.

And rethinking some stack sizes would also help greatly.

I second that. The stack size of cloth should be raised to at least 1000 and clean water to 125.

 

[Kalen]

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

While this is true... to me it's a false equivalency.  You don't find open pools of gas, stews, or acid to collect.   You do find open water.   I find it a little immersion breaking to be thirsty early game and walk past a pool of water that I can do nothing with.

Actually, back in the day, there was a lot of discussion about why when you ate your stew you didn't get a jar back.   It was explained that it was a technical limitation.  Generally people can accept technical limitations.

 

[Roland]

While this is true... to me it's a false equivalency.  You don't find open pools of gas, stews, or acid to collect.   You do find open water.   I find it a little immersion breaking to be thirsty early game and walk past a pool of water that I can do nothing with.

You can drink directly from that pool of water. Kind of an important part to leave out when trying to show a false equivalency and claim an immersion breaking condition when you are thirsty. If you're thirsty and concerned about your immersion then go drink from the pool. Disaster abated.

There are gas pumps but you can't directly fill your car from them. You have to use a large pot to cook your stew but you can't eat directly from the pot. So the equivalency isn't about attempting to make the gathering process the same for everything. The equivalency is about having no empty containers as physical objects in the game and in that sense they succeeded in unifying all containers of consumables in the game.

I don't disagree that not being able to fill a jar or a pot with water from a pool and take it home to boil is an artificial limitation. Games have tons of these as well as cases where real life limitations are ignored for the sake of fun.

 

[Kalen]

You can drink directly from that pool of water. Kind of an important part to leave out when trying to show a false equivalency and claim an immersion breaking condition when you are thirsty. If you're thirsty and concerned about your immersion then go drink from the pool. Disaster abated.

I have found that I can't always drink from a pool.   Not sure if thats just a bug or something intentional.   Not exactly what I'd call a disaster... but I appreciate your concern.  

There are gas pumps but you can't directly fill your car from them.

But you can loot gas cans from them.... you can't loot jars of water from a pond.   If you could, it would be equivalent.

The equivalency is about having no empty containers as physical objects in the game and in that sense they succeeded in unifying all containers of consumables in the game.

In your opinion its equivalent, which is fine.   I don't agree.   In my opinion resources like gas don't need an empty container.  Start filling the world with pools of gas and my opinion would certainly change.  It would actually be kind of useful if there were empty gas containers, if you could then use them to fill up with water.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that removing jars was really a big deal.   I just find the reasoning of "making it like other containers" not very compelling.

 

[ZehMatt]

No, you don't **have to** mod. Most people notice stuff they don't like in a game, shrug, and continue. If it is too much stuff they recognize that the game isn't for them and stop playing that game. Modding is just another alternative where you can reduce stuff you don't like.

It seems you have the game since 2017 at least. Has it taken you 5 years to notice that things can change and having played earlier versions makes those changes stick out ? When you buy into EA when the game is far from finished you have to expect that.

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

The only way to somewhat enjoy this game is by using mods, that's just the current state of the game, not everything is bad but for a "survival horde crafting game" its just not nailing it. Also did you just assume because I joined 2017 this forum that I have the game since 2017? No.

What has EA to do with this game? Why even bring up EA? Also did I notice those things? I absolutely did and I don't like it, I brought up only the glass jars as that is the most recent change and this is what this thread is about, isn't it? 

I'm also not surprised that hardcore fans are defending this, I believe that if the worst game ever would be put on Steam there will be always someone defending it no matter how bad it is, shiny graphics don't make a good game. Also I'm just expressing my opinion here, I do realize that they are not going to go back on this, I mean when did the devs ever listen to the community? They made it quite clear that their way is the only way and we must play the game the way they see best.

 

[meilodasreh]

What has EA to do with this game? Why even bring up EA?

to clarify:

Early Access. Not the game developer/publisher.

7D2D is an early access game.

This is confused so often even when it should be clear by context, it should never be abbreviated in the first place around here.

 

[meilodasreh]

Games have tons of these as well as cases where real life limitations are ignored for the sake of fun.

agreed. But that's the whole essence of this discussion.

Some people think stuff is being done for the sake of / to increase fun, and when they indeed have more fun, they're fine.

But there's other people (these who are complaining) who don't have more fun then, and from their point of view fun is sacrificed to gain consistency or whatever.

None of both perspectives is more true or false than the other.