Maybe it should be all of those things but the devs and tryhards want it to be a simple arcade dungeon shooter and that's where they are taking it.
PC What was the point of the water change?
- Thread starter GlassDeviant
- Start date
Maybe it should be all of those things but the devs and tryhards want it to be a simple arcade dungeon shooter and that's where they are taking it.
Simple? lol This is not a simple game. Why do you think so many players are confused. Or maybe it is the whole early access that they are not used to playing... I mean base building is not something that is an arcade dungeon shooter....
Hello Guys.
I honestly think you are merging a lot of topics here. I see balance and difficult stuff, but also immersion and "reality like" points. This is kind of not productive. I would split up this way:
I) Balance and difficult are about tuning and changing parameters. For instance:
-Change the drop rate of something.
-Change the value of purchase.
-Change how long it takes to produce or how much material it needs to do so.
In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collector) :
If dew collectors are too OP (as in, provide too much water in too quickly). You can basically make them hard to be acquired (considering the early, mid and late game). Or make them provide less water per time.
II) Change immersion and reality like. For instance:
-Add a new game mechanic for something.
-Change/Remove a mechanic that doesn't fulfill it's purpose.
-Encourage or not something in game with rewards or in place mechanics.
In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collectors):
If they are not immersive enough. You could add a game mechanic that would fluctuate production according to weather. This would make them less predictable and reliable. Or a feature that the filter has a lifespan (like real filters do). As they are used, they become less and less effective, taking more time to fill up the dew up to the point it provides only 1 murky water a day. You could add the possibility of craft a purifier (using sand + coal + silver + nitrate). This would add an upkeep effort to dew collectors in mid to late game.
Now... a personal feedback regarding the new water mechanic:
Before:
-Honestly. Water before was irrelevant. It was easy and not immersive at the same time. You would start with a single water(with a glass) and you would basically need only a lake or a pool and a campfire to be self sufficient about water. Even with glasses and other stuff, you would basically accumulate them so easily and so quickly. And that make a lot of sense.
-Think about it, Plastic and glass bottles are literally everywhere around us and inside the game too. There are trash bins, trash bags, backpacks all around the place. The same didn't happened with most of the materials and craft in game. How did you carry sand, wood, food (yeah, no plates there), glue, and on and on.
Now:
-Cooking pot is in deed a priority and at the same time, something once you acquire some you no longer need to worry about. That makes sense as a balance perspective because you have to focus on searching it. And also from a immersion perspective since once you have acquired a few (in house kitchens) you no longer need to worry about.
-Dew collectors are much more coherent than grabbing water around and boil it. Boil water is not as the same as filter it. Imagine how much dirty, junk, and diseases would be in a pool. Or in a river that zombies swim inside. From a immersion perspective, do make a lot of sense IMO. In a balance perspective, I still think it´s better than before. But still require improvement (a lot).
-Not worry about containers such as glasses do make a lot of sense to me. From a balance and difficult perspective looks like something extremely complex to manage variables. For a immersion that would not be felt, since it would be handling like just another craft component. This overthinking in containers would make the game less fun and would require a lot of effort to feel really immersive. This effort is better applied elsewhere.
-I do not like the dew collector generating heat. I do understand it is a balance thing. But not a good one IMO.
Here are a list of few suggestions for the current water system:
1) Make dew collectors be affected by biomes and weather. This would make them less reliable and less predictable. [This is a high effort one and the last one IMO]
2) Remove Dew collector heat since they are the most passive thing possible. It's not immersive. [Low effort]
3) Use a wood burn like mechanic. Instead of wood, gas or paper. It would require water purifiers [Medium effort I think, its a already in place mechanic but it would require to be clone it and change it).
4) Water purifiers requires, as a "expendable material" that would "burn" in collector dews to be craftable. Stone, Sand, plastic, nitrate and maybe even silver could be a thing. [Low effort].
5) Add the water purifier recipe somewhere to be learn (maybe workstations, or one of those special books of survival). [Low effort]
6) Add water purifier to be scrapped form water filters around the map. [Low effort]
With this suggestions. I think it would be a immersive thing but also would require a upkeep effort. It would not only be build and go there once or twice a day to collect. 7dtd in mid to late game is also a time management challenge, having an upkeep would make it a tradeoff to have a lot of them around.
What you think about these suggestions?
I honestly think you are merging a lot of topics here. I see balance and difficult stuff, but also immersion and "reality like" points. This is kind of not productive. I would split up this way:
I) Balance and difficult are about tuning and changing parameters. For instance:
-Change the drop rate of something.
-Change the value of purchase.
-Change how long it takes to produce or how much material it needs to do so.
In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collector) :
If dew collectors are too OP (as in, provide too much water in too quickly). You can basically make them hard to be acquired (considering the early, mid and late game). Or make them provide less water per time.
II) Change immersion and reality like. For instance:
-Add a new game mechanic for something.
-Change/Remove a mechanic that doesn't fulfill it's purpose.
-Encourage or not something in game with rewards or in place mechanics.
In this particular case(AKA.: Dew collectors):
If they are not immersive enough. You could add a game mechanic that would fluctuate production according to weather. This would make them less predictable and reliable. Or a feature that the filter has a lifespan (like real filters do). As they are used, they become less and less effective, taking more time to fill up the dew up to the point it provides only 1 murky water a day. You could add the possibility of craft a purifier (using sand + coal + silver + nitrate). This would add an upkeep effort to dew collectors in mid to late game.
Now... a personal feedback regarding the new water mechanic:
Before:
-Honestly. Water before was irrelevant. It was easy and not immersive at the same time. You would start with a single water(with a glass) and you would basically need only a lake or a pool and a campfire to be self sufficient about water. Even with glasses and other stuff, you would basically accumulate them so easily and so quickly. And that make a lot of sense.
-Think about it, Plastic and glass bottles are literally everywhere around us and inside the game too. There are trash bins, trash bags, backpacks all around the place. The same didn't happened with most of the materials and craft in game. How did you carry sand, wood, food (yeah, no plates there), glue, and on and on.
Now:
-Cooking pot is in deed a priority and at the same time, something once you acquire some you no longer need to worry about. That makes sense as a balance perspective because you have to focus on searching it. And also from a immersion perspective since once you have acquired a few (in house kitchens) you no longer need to worry about.
-Dew collectors are much more coherent than grabbing water around and boil it. Boil water is not as the same as filter it. Imagine how much dirty, junk, and diseases would be in a pool. Or in a river that zombies swim inside. From a immersion perspective, do make a lot of sense IMO. In a balance perspective, I still think it´s better than before. But still require improvement (a lot).
-Not worry about containers such as glasses do make a lot of sense to me. From a balance and difficult perspective looks like something extremely complex to manage variables. For a immersion that would not be felt, since it would be handling like just another craft component. This overthinking in containers would make the game less fun and would require a lot of effort to feel really immersive. This effort is better applied elsewhere.
-I do not like the dew collector generating heat. I do understand it is a balance thing. But not a good one IMO.
Here are a list of few suggestions for the current water system:
1) Make dew collectors be affected by biomes and weather. This would make them less reliable and less predictable. [This is a high effort one and the last one IMO]
2) Remove Dew collector heat since they are the most passive thing possible. It's not immersive. [Low effort]
3) Use a wood burn like mechanic. Instead of wood, gas or paper. It would require water purifiers [Medium effort I think, its a already in place mechanic but it would require to be clone it and change it).
4) Water purifiers requires, as a "expendable material" that would "burn" in collector dews to be craftable. Stone, Sand, plastic, nitrate and maybe even silver could be a thing. [Low effort].
5) Add the water purifier recipe somewhere to be learn (maybe workstations, or one of those special books of survival). [Low effort]
6) Add water purifier to be scrapped form water filters around the map. [Low effort]
With this suggestions. I think it would be a immersive thing but also would require a upkeep effort. It would not only be build and go there once or twice a day to collect. 7dtd in mid to late game is also a time management challenge, having an upkeep would make it a tradeoff to have a lot of them around.
What you think about these suggestions?
AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse
New member
Really, I think to make that simpler (but still a cost over time) would be charcoal (or using current game materials, coal). In a post-apocalyptic situation, a charcoal filter would be the most straightforward and most common way to purify water, so make water filters craftable, simple, but a consumable. Raise the output, but have the filters degrade over time and require replacing. Also, you should be able to purify murky water with them. That would be logical.
I think it's positive with current game mechanics and how they work. This way, a suggestion already try to be drafted on how the game works somehow. I'm not sure how filters work but it would be basically a craft, with specific components. How many of each component, how long to craft it, how to acquire the schematic (if would work like a mod, a craft learned from a magazine or one of those specific books) that would dictate how to balance the difficult.
The idea of filtering murky water is also nice. From a immersion perspective. Filtering is more immersive than just boil it. And from a balance perspective, upkeep a filtering structure would be harder than just boil the water. Something in between that would be something like. You still can boil water at the campfire. but the recipe would be like 5 murky water for a single purified water. I think that would provide a good trade off. You would be have to have enough water to cook and make drinks, but not in a scale for glue production.
What do you think?
madmole
Fun Pimps Staff
AtomicUs5000
New member
I appreciate that balance, coming from a permadeath player.That's coming in A21 yet lol. There will be an option to disable it though
AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse
New member
I've always actually thought there should be a "Water Filtration Station" workstation in the game. You should be able to input murky water and output pure water (with a "crafting time" inserted because that's how it would work IRL too). Making part of that workstation a consumable would make sense (charcoal filters are easy to make but they wear out and stop being effective over enough use). Easily doable in-game.
Side note, we already made a "craftable water purifier" recipe for A21 as a mod for our group's server that includes coal as a component. This kind of thing doesn't need to be as heavy handed as TFP seem dead-set on making it.
You are suggesting that the dew collector just collects and another workstation just to filter it? Is that it? I suggested being together because the water filter is one of the components of the dew collector.
Regarding your idea(purifying station), I need to think about it. My questions would be more like. How did you felt it was on early, mid and late game?
I currently play with 7 friends(8 including me). 4 are the constant players, the other 4 show up from time to time. We divide our selves in roles and focuses on craft and tasks.
-Up to the 7th day. Both water and food were a struggle. We had only 3 dew collectors and we rely heavily on murky water from loot.
-When we reached day 14. We had like 8 dew collectors. We no longer drank water (just coffe, tea or juice) and we had a few spare to create glue.
-When we reached day 21. We stopped around 13 dew collectors. And we had plenty of water for food and drinks and a steady production of glue. We build like a storage of those.
-When we reached day 28. We didn't add new dew collectors. We had a large production of glue, making miner coffee from time to time to replenish stock.
-Now arriving at day 35. We didn't add any new dew collectors but still. I have to produce glue constantly to free space from the craft food box.
In a nutshell. My perception was.
1) it worked pretty well at early game. It feels really scarce. Not drinking water only yucca juice or coffee was key to improve water consumption effectiveness.
2) It worked ok during the 2nd and 3rd week. We had enough for the group and a ok production of glue, duct tape and repair kit.
3) from 3rd week ahead. We are producing more glue, duct tape and repair kit that we are able to spend. It no longer felt like a challenge.
4) The amount of murky water you collect from loot is brutal. In a single in game day loot we get like 60 to a 100 murky water. As murky water stacks so much, it make no sense to collect it.
Roland
Moderator
I’m certain of the water survival “gameplay” you desire since anything that is added that creates a challenge or a struggle or tough choices gets labeled by you as anti-player hostility by the developers. To you, a water filter hat that removes any water struggle whatsoever is the best thing ever so someone must by lying if they claim to not use it because they wanted to use dew collectors and have to make choices about their limited supply of clean water whether to use it for drinks, cooking, or crafting— at least for a time.
Also, how does me admitting that I sold the filter mod both times I found it invalidate anyone’s point? The person I responded to criticized the existence of the mod since it instantly solves the water issue just like filling up glass jars from a lake would. My admission only confirms that point. I was essentially agreeing that the filter mod wrecks TFPs new water gameplay loop—which is why I sold them.
But even beyond that, I was simply sharing my own experience and desire to play the intended design which I felt the filter mod would bypass and I didn’t want to do that. That was just me in two of my playthroughs. It doesn’t invalidate how anyone else likes to play. If you let out a huge whoop when you find one on the first day because that is the water survival gameplay you enjoy that doesn’t invalidate me or my point.
Nice idea with the expendable resource.
Dew collectors affected by weather would mean that they had to be loaded all time or at least when it rains, and that would cost precious FPS according to Faatal
AllTheGoodNamesAreInUse
New member
No, I actually think dew collectors shouldn't need a filter. That's just stupid. They should produce pure water without, since it's coming from evaporation/condensation cycle.
The water filtration workstation would be for purifying murky water.
Roland
Moderator
I actually like the idea that was floated earlier of the filter being a tool slot item on the dew collector instead of part of its recipe and that it generates murky water until that filter is obtained and inserted. If iteration 2 of the station makes a change like that I'd be okay with it. That said, I don't know how that would affect the balance. It might be worth modding out the filter from the dew collector recipe and change it to produce murky water and try playing with that to see how it affects things.
theFlu
Well-known member
Assuming no other changes:
Time to condense a jar of murky: ~20 mins.
Time to boil the murky into water: ~1 min.
Building an extra campfire next to every 20 collectors: 5 stones, 31 iron for pot, clay.
Total change in output: ~ none.
Total change in extra hassle: a bit.
I mean, sure, it makes the "first level" easier to mass manufacture, but that was sorta the design intent, to slow down production?
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Just adding a filter to provide water would with the current 1 murky water - 1 water balance. It would be too much effort, for too little return.theFlu said:
That´s why a good way to handle this would be something like....
5 or 10 murky water for each water production. Basically you would balance this by reducing the effectiveness of the current water boiling system. You can also change how long it takes, but I don't think that is so effective, since campfires are so easy to build.
Building Dews would be easy. Acquiring filters... not so much. You can still get your boiled water, but much less effective. Making filter would be useful for larger amounts, not small.
Roland
Moderator
theFlu said:
It also eliminates the reliance on a trader to get water production going which seems to be a major complaint. If TFP is going to stick to its guns with the current system but possibly make adjustments to it to address concerns they hear then I could see this or something similar being a possibility.
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theFlu
Well-known member
So you'd need about three collectors running for a day to produce a single drinkable water/glue? That sounds like the distance between my base and the trader would be FILLED with collectors
Yeh, people are complaining about that. I can't decide on a level of snark, so lets go with <mild>:
"The reliance is hopefully also by design. The alternative isn't really funny anymore ...
"
AtomicUs5000
New member
Yes, then I can jam a silencer in that slot!Roland said: