What is it with some of these POIs???

[theFlu]

As InfiniteWarrior mentioned, having a POI tell a story is a great thing as it can make the POI more interesting and less repetitive. But it is easier to tell a story if you have a path the player will follow.

You do have a point there, if the carnage that formed the path is the story, that's one thing. But it's not entirely that straightforward - if the story of the POI isn't "the making of the path", then lining up story events along the path actually shouldn't be "linear". A story can be told with chronological breaking as well (Pulp fiction, anyone?).

But for me, the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight. I'm only looking for the next way to go, and while I will look at the story elements, I'm not trying to put together a story when there's a path to follow. It happens to me in other games as well, I have no idea of the actual story of an MMORPG until I actually stop and think about it.

It's probably highly individual for sure, I'm a mechanical being first and foremost - but I think it will affect everyone to some degree, just by splitting / stealing attention. Much like my complaint about the yellow quest marker with a progress counter to stare at while traveling, I'm blind to the world while I look at the count down. I'm blind at the POI while I'm looking for the path.

That way, if you want to tell Me a story, don't distract me with a rat race at the same time

 

[Laz Man]

Literally anything that isn´t a dungeon style POI with only one way trough it. From POI´s like they used to be before dungeon stlye, just not that rudimentary, up to Castles that are hard to clear simply due to their size.

Is this really so hard to imagine? Are you guys stuck that much on dungeon style that you can´t even think of anything else anymore?

I am not saying they shouldn´t be questable. Maybe no fetch quests in those POI´s, clear is fine.

It's not simple as it may appear. One huge benefit of current questable POI design is good pacing and minimal having to double back on spaces the player has already been in. They also scale up in difficulty and time spent the higher the tier. It's significantly much harder to achieve this consistently with no "main path."

Good level design, respects the players time which is very important in games where there is time tension like the impending bloodmoon event.

Now, what POI are you referring to in the past that you are so fond of? I would be more then happy to take a closer look at any particular POI if there is anything useful to takeaway from it.

Most non questable POIs of the past were huge empty POIs with a monotone experience.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Laz Man I am not looking for pre A17 POI style. Modern POI´s that aren´t dungeon style. Best i can tell you is to take a look at compopack and ZZtongs POI´s. Compopack has a ton of dungeon POIs also though. ZZ only has a few of them as far as i can remember.

I am not looking for a certain style of POI, just generally T1-T5 POIs, including clear and generator quests as fetch can be too easy in some that aren´t dungeon style. I don´t want the game to have dungeon POI´s and one style of non dungeon POIs. Variety and not falling into one extreme is the key.

When i play with compopack and all the Packs from modders that aren´t in compopack, then i delete almost every vanilla POI, because if you saw one, you basically saw them all, besides like 10% that have a more difficult layout with the path like the building that fell over or kind of open POIs like Area 7 which is not dungeon style.

 

[Riamus]

You do have a point there, if the carnage that formed the path is the story, that's one thing. But it's not entirely that straightforward - if the story of the POI isn't "the making of the path", then lining up story events along the path actually shouldn't be "linear". A story can be told with chronological breaking as well (Pulp fiction, anyone?).

But for me, the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight. I'm only looking for the next way to go, and while I will look at the story elements, I'm not trying to put together a story when there's a path to follow. It happens to me in other games as well, I have no idea of the actual story of an MMORPG until I actually stop and think about it.

It's probably highly individual for sure, I'm a mechanical being first and foremost - but I think it will affect everyone to some degree, just by splitting / stealing attention. Much like my complaint about the yellow quest marker with a progress counter to stare at while traveling, I'm blind to the world while I look at the count down. I'm blind at the POI while I'm looking for the path.

That way, if you want to tell Me a story, don't distract me with a rat race at the same time

My guess based on what you say here is that even if the story elements were added to any kind of POI layout, you'd still not notice them or ignore them. It seems that a story element for a POI isn't something you'd pay much attention to based on this. There isn't anything wrong with that. I probably ignore most of those that are in this game as well. But they are nice to see when you do notice them. I'm also not suggesting that all POI, or even most POI, need story elements.

I think the biggest problem with "the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight" is that we are in buildings. Buildings are usually just a lot of rooms. Walls hide things from sight. And if you don't want to have a player need to go in and out of every room that has only one door and no exit from it as would be the case in a real building, you need things that direct the player in other directions - broken walls, barricades, open windows, etc. That creates a linear path. But it breaks up the back and forth. I think it would be pretty dull if the skyscrapers were just open staircases and you had to walk into each room and then back out into the hall and into the next room and back into the hall and so on for the entire thing because it is "open". And, yes... that's the extreme end of things. You can mix things up, but I actually like how the paths are in the POI while also having the option to go your own way.

Best i can tell you is to take a look at compopack and ZZtongs POI´s. Compopack has a ton of dungeon POIs also though. ZZ only has a few of them as far as i can remember.

I don't use compopack, but I always use ZZTong's modlet. He has great POI. One thing great about them is they feel like vanilla POI, which is what he's said he tries to do with them. Yes, most don't have a linear path, but at the same time, when I go through them, they feel like vanilla POI. They don't really give a sense of being unique just because they don't have a path. I don't even notice the lack because they feel so much like vanilla POI. And when it really just comes down to his versus vanilla, you're getting the ability to go other directions, but you're also going through the same areas multiple times as you backtrack to go in another direction to cover the places you didn't get to when going in the first direction. I don't think it really adds much of anything to the POI to have it open. It's a different experience, sure. But not in any really significant way.

And you're just trading one form of "because if you saw one, you basically saw them all" for another. If you pick two houses from ZZTong and compare them, the similarity between them will be roughly the same as picking two houses from vanilla and comparing those to each other. The linear paths actually give more variety because the paths are going to be different. If you're going into a house and can go upstairs and downstairs and into each room as you want without much of an intended path, then two POI of the same type will end up being very much the same. On the other hand, if you have an intended path and one path takes you through in one kind of way and another path takes you through in another kind of way, then you have variety even if the house is basically the same. Don't forget that real buildings are usually the same general design as others of the same type. A house is a house is a house... You'll usually have a living room connected to a kitchen and/or dining room with a bathroom off the side. Bedrooms are either connected to that living room or else on the next floor. If there are two floors, there's often a bathroom on each floor. Basements are often just an open area with perhaps a room or two and shelving that might break it up. There could be access to an attic. Layouts change some and furniture varies, but it's pretty much the same thing. An office building will usually have a lot of rooms connected to hallways with only one door into them and maybe a larger room with cubicles. There will usually be a reception desk at the entrance. So again, it's the same basic idea over and over again. By using paths, you can hide that and make each one at least somewhat different from the next. You'll still have similarities... it's still an office building or a house or whatever. But it helps to hide those similarities, especially compared to being more open and letting you go where you want without a path.

 

[theFlu]

I think the biggest problem with "the game of the maze practically always hides everything else from sight" is that we are in buildings.

No. Different argument. Walls will of course hide things, but looking for the "clues" of "where do I go next" are a completely different thing. Walls work exactly the same in a single-path POI as they do in a realistic one; but only in one is my attention taken by the "path". In the other my attention is taken by the structure of the POI and figuring out how to move through it; that lends better towards me having brainpower/time to spend on decor. It's no guarantee, but way more likely for me look at stuff and not just cruise through if I don't have the lure stuck on my lip pulling me forward.

An apartment building with 5 clones of floors may be really boring even on the first run, and there a path through some balconies etc may make the place better. But that can also be improved by storytelling, different types of apartments obviously inhabited by different types of people (hunting decors in one, computer labs in another etc). Doesn't need to be the case for ANY OTHER type of POI, be it a superstore of a medical factory, there's zero need to clone rooms anywhere else...