What happened to 4k maps?

[InfiniteWarrior]

main quest would be completely told in a few linked quests, with quest types we already have

That would be the Bethesda way. Procedurally generated everything. I'd expect it to be as simple and unmemorable to keep it survival sandbox.

Making peace? Madmole once said you will have 3 choices: Kill the duke for white river, kill the white river leader for the duke, or kill both to be the new king.

Typical.

 

[meganoth]

That would be the Bethesda way. Procedurally generated everything. I'd expect it to be as simple and unmemorable to keep it survival sandbox.

Obviously not procedurally generated everything. The POIs for the fetch quest would be, but the quest itself has to be handcrafted to give the McGuffin a meaning. And the final quest would be handcrafted all the way.

But lets not get too far ahead, as what I said is pure speculation based on some old information tidbits on the forum. For example if they really decided to keep the main story to Navezgane only, they could go all the way handcrafted. It would be a severe loss for RWG though in my opinion, a part of the players want a goal they can work up to, but having to play Navezgane again and again gets old much faster.

 

[Riamus]

See: other thread regarding RWG maps missing traders. If they're missing traders, it's pretty easy to imagine them missing Duke and Noah's compounds, too. Roll a RWG map and you don't know what you're going get, POIs and otherwise. Some I haven't seen since A21. That's why I wouldn't want to wrestle with it were I TFP.

That's different, depending on exactly what they do.

First, traders have limits on how close they can be in RWG. If there is no room to place one because it would be too close, RWG likely will not place it (I don't know if it overrides those for any reason). Second, traders can only be placed on gateway tiles. This limits availability for them to be placed. Third, traders need a town to get placed and towns in RWG can't cross biome boundaries, so if a small map makes it where a biome has no space for a town because that biome happens to be filled with mountains or rivers/lake stamps, then there's no place for a trader.

Now, look at any specific story POI. They can make it so those can appear in all biomes if they want. They can make those use a very common POI size so they have many more places to appear. They can make those appear in all districts so there are many more places for them to appear. They can make those a priority in placement - place them before other POI to guarantee they are placed. And if they feel that still has a chance of not placing them, they can make them wilderness POI instead of town POI. Wilderness POI have no restrictions other than terrain or not being too close to a town. That means they can easily start wilderness POI placement by placing those required POI and since RWG always makes maps with a lot of flat or "flat enough" terrain for a lot of wilderness POI, there's really no chance of them not getting placed.

And that's all without them needing to change RWG at all to guarantee that they are placed, which they could choose to do if they want.

As far as POI you haven't seen, some POI were removed and/or redone in 1.0. Some of those that were redone don't really look the same as they were in A21 and may not be recognized if you aren't reading the POI names and remember them from A21. That's not related to RWG POI placement at all. There was a "bug" recently that limited placement of certain tile types, like caps, that made it very difficult to ever see certain POI that have very limited placement options, but that should be fixed in 2.6.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

As far as POI you haven't seen, some POI were removed and/or redone in 1.0. Some of those that were redone don't really look the same as they were in A21 and may not be recognized if you aren't reading the POI names and remember them from A21.

I've remembered all I've seen, even those that have been modified. They haven't been modified that much.

There was a "bug" recently that limited placement of certain tile types, like caps, that made it very difficult to ever see certain POI that have very limited placement options, but that should be fixed in 2.6.

That would account for it. Thanks. As for the rest, I'll take your word for it. Whatever they decide, as long as all the triggers appear, it should be fine.

 

[MiTHMoN]

Well, it seems you guys had a lot to discuss about the game's storytelling.

I think it's an interesting point about changing the code for RWG. That would definitely help ensure 4k (or even smaller) maps can have guaranteed 1 of each trader. Like some have said, it's definitely possible for that to be added to vanilla.

I think for a 3k map to have all 5 traders guaranteed, the actual RWG code would need to be altered. And that comes down to how much the devs care. So, like always, the ball is in their court.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Since it's a small number of POIs that are affected.

Would it be possible to add a code insert that pulls from a file so that players can customize it if they want.

The file being a limited count of poi names, and a count of 1- whatever the dev chooses.

Have it preclude running, rwgmixer.xml sort of an over-ride, or insert so that rwg may remain the same.

By default have the missing 100 x 100 pois by name and quantity of 1. By default the traders quantity 1.

Then have the world build around them.

Similar to how the topological decor like boulders and stumps etc, are overlayed after, the main objects have
been rendered.

If it could be done then as long as the biome is present, no matter how small traders would spawn, because
they are given over-ride priority.

Each of the 100 x 100 pois that have been missing, would spawn at least one on the map also. Then let rwg do
the filler as usual.

Just looking at the loading screen prompts, it follows a specific order, just add a class inserted prior to other
pois being rendered.

 

[Riamus]

Since it's a small number of POIs that are affected.

Would it be possible to add a code insert that pulls from a file so that players can customize it if they want.

The file being a limited count of poi names, and a count of 1- whatever the dev chooses.

Have it preclude running, rwgmixer.xml sort of an over-ride, or insert so that rwg may remain the same.

By default have the missing 100 x 100 pois by name and quantity of 1. By default the traders quantity 1.

Then have the world build around them.

Similar to how the topological decor like boulders and stumps etc, are overlayed after, the main objects have
been rendered.

If it could be done then as long as the biome is present, no matter how small traders would spawn, because
they are given over-ride priority.

Each of the 100 x 100 pois that have been missing, would spawn at least one on the map also. Then let rwg do
the filler as usual.

Just looking at the loading screen prompts, it follows a specific order, just add a class inserted prior to other
pois being rendered.

I don't think that would really be a good option from a map generation standpoint. Trying to build around a specific set of POI rather than just building random towns and filling them in with POI would create all kinds of issues. The 100x100 POI will be better once the bug for caps and other types of tiles that aren't being placed properly are fixed. But in the end, you're not going to get every POI on a 4k map anyhow. Even an 8k map isn't likely to have every POI. Wilderness POI are easy since they can be placed anywhere that's flat enough, but town POI have to fit on specific tiles, and those tiles can't just be placed anywhere. They have to be placed so town roads line up and districts are in groups.

The best option you have, I think, is to generate a map and then use the World Editor to remove things you don't need/want and add things you do need/want. You could also do that with manually editing the prefabs.xml file if you're on PC. Alternatively, you can use Teragon to give you a lot more control over town generation, but it would still have similar limitations based on what tiles get placed and what spaces are available for POI.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Ok, but, I wasn't talking about all of the pois, only 7 on a 4 k map, its so tight that
if a trader were in the wilderness it would still be close to the cities.

I render my t5 big pois alone, to lower chunk load, which has always helped my fps stay
high. I was thinking only with the 4k maps, the average biome if even % would be approx
1365 meters, that's the approx diameter of a decent city in the game.

 

[Riamus]

Ok, but, I wasn't talking about all of the pois, only 7 on a 4 k map, its so tight that
if a trader were in the wilderness it would still be close to the cities.

I render my t5 big pois alone, to lower chunk load, which has always helped my fps stay
high. I was thinking only with the 4k maps, the average biome if even % would be approx
1365 meters, that's the approx diameter of a decent city in the game.

You could make them wilderness and they would get placed far more easily. That only requires editing the prefab XML file and changing the tags to include wilderness before generating a map (on PC). But I don't think that they should be placed in wilderness in vanilla, even on a small map, unless they actually fit in the wilderness.

As far as traders, adding an RWG option to allow placing them in the wilderness like they did for a short time would be good.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

You made me remember something about RWGMixer.xml. At the top, the rule sets,
a single one dedicated to 4k. Before they went through various phases of being group
allocated.

Possible Rule example
<world name="4K_Only">
<property name="world_size" value="4096,4096"/>
<prefab_spawn_adjust partial_name="trader_hugh_4K" biomeTags="snow" bias="100" min_count="1" max_count="1"/>
<property name="spawn_weight" value="100"/>
Something similar to this, have not tested it, just going by the footnotes and calculations
they provided. For the default named traders give them the lowest priority possible.

Making a clone of the affected pois and giving them the suffix 4k they will look the same when rendered
Example: trader_hugh_4k and give them a guaranteed, single spawn, putting them at the
top or bottom of the ruleset for 4k maps, I don't know which order it reads from, forward
or reverse. AI starts from farthest to closest. Then without a lot of conflict or rewrites, a 4k map
would give those priority over their counterpart and other POIs. For the trader, it would have to
omit the original trader name or you may wind up with duplicates. For the others they are the
ones posted about being missing, so no conflict.