PC What do you HOPE to see with the attribute system (without complete scrapping or over
- Thread starter Limdood
- Start date
beHypE
New member
Learn by doing was a great feature, and while it had exploits (spamcrafting being the most notable), those were "easily" fixable. And even if they weren't, nothing forced you to do it. I never spamcrafted and just played the game for what it was, and it was amazing.
Other than that, if there was ONE thing that I could change about the current system, it would be to vault the intelligence tree and bring back books (or other forms of "learning by finding"), for a couple of reasons :
- books incentivized looting. Right now, there's virtually nothing I can't craft if I put enough points in Intelligence. I get to access all the knowledge just by levelling up my character (and it doesn't matter whether it's from killing zombies or doing anything else once it's balanced). Back in the days, you HAD to go out there, find those bookshelves in houses and would scream a massive "YAY!" when you came across a Crack-A-Book. There's absolutely no feeling of achievement or excitement when you finally put that salvaging point in the Intelligence tree to get the recipe you wanted. Since it's totally mapped out for you, it also destroys diversity between playthroughs, because you can have the exact same recipes at the exact same time in every game.
- Intelligence perks are REAL perks, by definition. You either know how to craft, or don't. All the other attributes are purely multipliers, as in "do % more damage", "use % less stamina", etc. Using a point to fully unlock a recipe will ALWAYS feel more interesting than doing something 10% better, thus making the Intelligence tree way better than all the others.
Other than that, if there was ONE thing that I could change about the current system, it would be to vault the intelligence tree and bring back books (or other forms of "learning by finding"), for a couple of reasons :
- books incentivized looting. Right now, there's virtually nothing I can't craft if I put enough points in Intelligence. I get to access all the knowledge just by levelling up my character (and it doesn't matter whether it's from killing zombies or doing anything else once it's balanced). Back in the days, you HAD to go out there, find those bookshelves in houses and would scream a massive "YAY!" when you came across a Crack-A-Book. There's absolutely no feeling of achievement or excitement when you finally put that salvaging point in the Intelligence tree to get the recipe you wanted. Since it's totally mapped out for you, it also destroys diversity between playthroughs, because you can have the exact same recipes at the exact same time in every game.
- Intelligence perks are REAL perks, by definition. You either know how to craft, or don't. All the other attributes are purely multipliers, as in "do % more damage", "use % less stamina", etc. Using a point to fully unlock a recipe will ALWAYS feel more interesting than doing something 10% better, thus making the Intelligence tree way better than all the others.
HungryZombie
New member
I'll go you one step better. I open progression.xml in a text editor and change skill points per lvl from 1 to 2.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, you'd rather everyone just be quiet and wait till the A17 Stable is out and just mod things to suit our needs? TFP are not interested in feedback at this time of our impressions of gameplay. They are not really going to adapt anything right now based upon any outside input?
Last edited by a moderator:
Spanky Deluxe
New member
Can this be done for multiplayer games too? My friends and I play a multiplayer game where we switch around roles so that we have fun and see a bit of everything. We each have something that we focus a little bit more in but I guess we're spending points in a similar way to people in single player modes and the new system feels really restrictive and un-fun as I have to sit on my points for 10 levels before spending any which is a *long* time in-game to not feel like I'm getting any upgrades. getting multiple skill points per level might be the best workaround for us for now (we've been playing a joint game since this alpha build first came out a few weeks ago and don't want to start again).
HerrKingsley
New member
Im slowly slowly trying to mod this system to see how it feels.
ABILITIES
Abilities like strength, agility, fortitude are not connected to generic XP but has its on level system based on Learning-by-doing.
ONE activity can give the player xp in multiple abilities for example:
Stone axe upon destroying block gives:
8xp to strength
4xp to agility
1xp to intelligence
Club upon killing enemy gives:
8xp to strength
3xp to agility
3xp to fortitude.
The goal is to have a character that is enjoyable to play through the whole progression. The learning curve should not be linear but fast in early game and slower in late game.
Abilities should be considered as the meat and potato of the progression. Basically you should be able to play comfortably without buying any perks.(like older alphas)
PERKS
Are seen as commodity or quality of life, but also serves as a reward for surviving.
For each day the player survives the player will gain 1 skillpoint. If the player survives a BM the player will gain 3 skill points.
If the player dies the timer will be set back 48h meaning it will take two more days before he/she can gain another skillpoint.
LEVEL GATE
There are no level gates but instead the cost of perks increases with tire. (as in b233)
MAGAZINES
Magazines have a rare drop chance on loot and gives a permanent skill point to its skill.
PLAYER LEVELS
Xp and levels are kept intact. But it only influence Game Stage since levels and xp are no longer controlled by xp or levels.
ABILITIES
Abilities like strength, agility, fortitude are not connected to generic XP but has its on level system based on Learning-by-doing.
ONE activity can give the player xp in multiple abilities for example:
Stone axe upon destroying block gives:
8xp to strength
4xp to agility
1xp to intelligence
Club upon killing enemy gives:
8xp to strength
3xp to agility
3xp to fortitude.
The goal is to have a character that is enjoyable to play through the whole progression. The learning curve should not be linear but fast in early game and slower in late game.
Abilities should be considered as the meat and potato of the progression. Basically you should be able to play comfortably without buying any perks.(like older alphas)
PERKS
Are seen as commodity or quality of life, but also serves as a reward for surviving.
For each day the player survives the player will gain 1 skillpoint. If the player survives a BM the player will gain 3 skill points.
If the player dies the timer will be set back 48h meaning it will take two more days before he/she can gain another skillpoint.
LEVEL GATE
There are no level gates but instead the cost of perks increases with tire. (as in b233)
MAGAZINES
Magazines have a rare drop chance on loot and gives a permanent skill point to its skill.
PLAYER LEVELS
Xp and levels are kept intact. But it only influence Game Stage since levels and xp are no longer controlled by xp or levels.
HungryZombie
New member
My only multiplayer experience is on a server and I know for sure they can be modded. It would make sense you can mod a locally hosted game but I don't know how exactly. I suspect you'd both have to mod your progression.xml files. Worth a try, it's super easy.
Roland
Moderator
You didn't understand me at all. I don't want anyone to be quiet. I love all the threads and chatter going on now both positive and negative. I was simply stating that since people are talking about what could hypothetically be better about the current system (at least those who are actually on topic...) they could test their theory by doing what I suggested.
If you notice after my suggestion I said it would be a good way to test the theory. I did not say that everyone should now just shut up. I also stated that it was an easy test even for people who don't want to mod their game since it wouldn't require modding.
Maybe you should be known as the HangryZombie instead of the HungryZombie....
Roland
Moderator
You don't understand that I'm responding to players that are participating in an experimental opt-in version of a game still in development. Casuals don't find their way down here. The suggestion was made that every 3-5 days an extra point could be awarded. I offered a way to test that suggestion if those who felt their SP experience was being crimped by the current system and then they would have first-hand knowledge instead of speculation about that suggestion.
Your problem is that you came to derail this thread from suggestions to improve the current system to once again (in utter futility I might add) push for reverting to "learn by doing".
She's dead. Mourn and move on.
Random thought - came up with an interesting solution to the ammo part of my first post (having enough ammo available in a no- intellect game)
What if perception had a perk, or rolled into lucky looter - +20/40/60/80/100% ammo found in containers? Similar to the loot modifier setting at game start, but only on ammunition types (if that's possible).
It wouldn't let one non- crafter provide enough ammo for a group, but they should be able to keep stocked up enough to even handle later game hordes, as long as they keep looting
What if perception had a perk, or rolled into lucky looter - +20/40/60/80/100% ammo found in containers? Similar to the loot modifier setting at game start, but only on ammunition types (if that's possible).
It wouldn't let one non- crafter provide enough ammo for a group, but they should be able to keep stocked up enough to even handle later game hordes, as long as they keep looting
Kage848
Stream Team
After playing alpha 17 for a month now I have come to the conclusion I like the perk system more than skills.
Learn by doing skill system makes sense in reality no one can argure that. But this is a video game so when fun is more important I'd go with perks.
I am pre planning my perk build in my head he whole time I'm at work and driving home. I'm thinking do I really need bartering that early? Cardio is a must. And do I want to give in and use metabolism?
This engagement is something I never had before in this game. Reminds me of old diablo 2, planning builds and stuff. Learn by doing is hella boring compared to this. Just my 2c
Learn by doing skill system makes sense in reality no one can argure that. But this is a video game so when fun is more important I'd go with perks.
I am pre planning my perk build in my head he whole time I'm at work and driving home. I'm thinking do I really need bartering that early? Cardio is a must. And do I want to give in and use metabolism?
This engagement is something I never had before in this game. Reminds me of old diablo 2, planning builds and stuff. Learn by doing is hella boring compared to this. Just my 2c
Don't know why I keep repeating it when it doesn't seem to gain any traction but ♥♥♥♥ it:
1. Revert attribute costs to 1 point again.
2. Raise higher level perk costs.
3. Give us 2 points per level.
Attributes are of general use to everyone, flat bonus per level, and even choosing ones specialties one is still likely to want something from each line.
High level perks truly are special abilities and THAT is where specialization occurs, not in the general attributes (we all want more health/stam, etc) and not so much in the lower levels of a perk (the difference between being decent at something and being a pro)
As always anyone who wants to slog all the way to max level deserves enough points to get all the skills, those of us who are not going to should beable to have a decent mixed build by level 100. This is not an MMORPG FFS!
1. Revert attribute costs to 1 point again.
2. Raise higher level perk costs.
3. Give us 2 points per level.
Attributes are of general use to everyone, flat bonus per level, and even choosing ones specialties one is still likely to want something from each line.
High level perks truly are special abilities and THAT is where specialization occurs, not in the general attributes (we all want more health/stam, etc) and not so much in the lower levels of a perk (the difference between being decent at something and being a pro)
As always anyone who wants to slog all the way to max level deserves enough points to get all the skills, those of us who are not going to should beable to have a decent mixed build by level 100. This is not an MMORPG FFS!
My want for change is often an effort to compromise with what the devs have already laid out. A complete makeover, is their decision, so I'm not going to hope for anything too drastic.
In A17, I didn't like level gates.
They removed it.
Subsequently, I felt the perk costs were a little too high.
The most recent notes says they nerfed it. I haven't had time to lay into it.
If there was a further tweak that I'd like, and together with the notion of learn by doing, it would be to remove the mining/harvesting perks altogether and give them their own xp bar.
Here's why I propose this based on the current perks.
In the perception tree, it's mostly about range weapons. The looting perks are pretty optional (to me). Doesn't affect me at all. For those who play with 0 int, the only impact is they won't find items with higher quality. BUT! With the makeover in Traders offering items WITH mods, I think those saved points could just be moved over to bartering instead.
But no matter how you play (I play), motherlode is necessary just so harvesting doesn't turn into a mindnumbing food gluttony experience with the most recent satiety consumption from stamina expenditure. Miner69er is almost a necessity just so, you don't take half the day to break open a rock or safe. Practically everyone needs it.
In most cases, even if you focus heavily on perception, you'd still need to invest a fair numbers of points in Strength whether you like it or not.
And for the all important perk, Pack Mule, I'd say just remove it altogether and remove 'encumbered'. Make it a smaller backpack and make storage mods stackable. Let survivors decide between prioritizing bonus attributes from mods and storage space.
Sexual Tyrannosaur should be in Fortitude. I'd argue that Fortitude is currently the most optional stat atm. The value of this stat falls off inversely with your character's progression and gear. On the flipside, it can stay in strength anyway because you don't really need ST 5/5.
I think this evens out Strength being too overly important after Int (if you do craft).
In A17, I didn't like level gates.
They removed it.
Subsequently, I felt the perk costs were a little too high.
The most recent notes says they nerfed it. I haven't had time to lay into it.
If there was a further tweak that I'd like, and together with the notion of learn by doing, it would be to remove the mining/harvesting perks altogether and give them their own xp bar.
Here's why I propose this based on the current perks.
In the perception tree, it's mostly about range weapons. The looting perks are pretty optional (to me). Doesn't affect me at all. For those who play with 0 int, the only impact is they won't find items with higher quality. BUT! With the makeover in Traders offering items WITH mods, I think those saved points could just be moved over to bartering instead.
But no matter how you play (I play), motherlode is necessary just so harvesting doesn't turn into a mindnumbing food gluttony experience with the most recent satiety consumption from stamina expenditure. Miner69er is almost a necessity just so, you don't take half the day to break open a rock or safe. Practically everyone needs it.
In most cases, even if you focus heavily on perception, you'd still need to invest a fair numbers of points in Strength whether you like it or not.
And for the all important perk, Pack Mule, I'd say just remove it altogether and remove 'encumbered'. Make it a smaller backpack and make storage mods stackable. Let survivors decide between prioritizing bonus attributes from mods and storage space.
Sexual Tyrannosaur should be in Fortitude. I'd argue that Fortitude is currently the most optional stat atm. The value of this stat falls off inversely with your character's progression and gear. On the flipside, it can stay in strength anyway because you don't really need ST 5/5.
I think this evens out Strength being too overly important after Int (if you do craft).
i feel that alot of issues could be addressed by having different skill progressions for single and multi player. single player needs to be a jack of all trades, they dont have anyone else helping and the trader is too much of a crap shoot to count on. multi player is tailor made for specialization and team play. i dont think you can make both groups happy with the same system, while not having god like charcters end game
I've always had mixed feelings about leveling systems.
On the one hand, I've never really liked them, on the other hand, *SOME* kind of system needs to be in place to give players a sense of accomplishment and progression.
I prefer systems that are largely invisible, systems that reward you for what you naturally would be doing anyways.
For example, if your chopping down trees, after a while, you get better at it, and get more wood per tree and it takes fewer chops to take down a tree. If your making arrows, you get better and faster at making arrows, and so on and so forth.
By the same line of thought, if your running around everywhere, eventually your stamina should go up, if your chopping down trees and mining rock and digging, your going to get stronger, if your constantly looting and scavenging your perception will go up, etc... etc...
I've never been a fan of up front point systems where you spend points on skills or stats or whatever.
- P
On the one hand, I've never really liked them, on the other hand, *SOME* kind of system needs to be in place to give players a sense of accomplishment and progression.
I prefer systems that are largely invisible, systems that reward you for what you naturally would be doing anyways.
For example, if your chopping down trees, after a while, you get better at it, and get more wood per tree and it takes fewer chops to take down a tree. If your making arrows, you get better and faster at making arrows, and so on and so forth.
By the same line of thought, if your running around everywhere, eventually your stamina should go up, if your chopping down trees and mining rock and digging, your going to get stronger, if your constantly looting and scavenging your perception will go up, etc... etc...
I've never been a fan of up front point systems where you spend points on skills or stats or whatever.
- P
madmole
Fun Pimps Staff
Thanks. Its my goal to make the game viable with any attribute at 1. We're not there yet but the trader overhaul I did put us closer. I'm thinking crafting vehicles won't need INT, but crafting the parts does. To that end I'll sprinkle vehicle parts in the loot or as trader quest rewards so you can get a vehicle while having a low INT and without buying any perks. We might need to move a few perks around a bit to make viable low attribute builds work, and of course distribute enough normally crafted gear into the loot and traders.
LuckyStar
New member
I'm hoping to see where TFP goes with this ... and then I'll figure it out.
Right now so many variables are being tested that it's hard to get a handle on things.
Which is fun to see and interesting to try to adapt to.
For now I'll wait. So far the system shows sooooo much promise and it's getting better each update.
I think A17 has the potential to be the best build yet.
Right now so many variables are being tested that it's hard to get a handle on things.
Which is fun to see and interesting to try to adapt to.
For now I'll wait. So far the system shows sooooo much promise and it's getting better each update.
I think A17 has the potential to be the best build yet.