PC What are the benifits of level gating?

[Zourin]

I like all the skill trees and I like the hard choices to make, I'm looking forward to building differently like u say but there's the problem I'm restricted. I want to make an athletic build with good stamina, game is telling me 'No u can't progress any further unless u hit a certain player level, now go kill more zombies and get more xp'.
It's not like if i power dump into Agility I suddenly become over powered and break the game, I just want to have more stamina for an athletic build. Let's say someone likes to build so they need to up Perception / Mother Lode to get more resources, but game is saying no u can't do that. And power dumping still makes u sacrifice a lot of other skills and make u vulnerable. But restricting the players choices is starting to feel very artificial and annoying.

I can see how dumping into Fortitude might sway the balance of the game early on:

+ Reduce HP loss by 25%. Iron Chin: No chance to get stunned.

+ Gain 1 HP every 2 seconds with natural healing. Gain 1 max health every 10 seconds.

That would make u very hard to kill.

Can u elaborate on the SP experience needing to invest heavily in Int? I'm not far into my game yet, do u mean for the forge and the other work stations?

You need 7 Int to unlock the following mandatory solo items (6pts):

Leather/Iron armor & tools (2 pts) <- Steel tools/armor requires more points. It's easier to just go to the Trader

Motorcycle (3pts) <-

Req 7 intBlade traps (3pts). <--- You seriously aren't showing up on horde night without this? Req L7 int

Tier 2 mods (and advanced bow ammo) (2pts) <- Req 7 Int

First aid kits (2pts) <- Req 7 Int

Cooking < more points

So we're talking at least 19+ points JUST in intelligence skills for every solo player to sustain mid-tier tech, medical supplies, and food. Lets round it to 20 points for now.

If you don't want to delay your tech development, you're effectively specializing in Intelligence, since of these, you can only buy 4 points of these before level 20, and based on that gating pattern, you can't get level 7 Int until level 80.

So ,assuming you reserve points, by 80, you should have 85 perk points. 20 of which are now spent on Int.

There's a lot of play in the remaining points because of the forced, 20-level gap gating. No matter what you play, ~25% of your skill points are going to go into, or be reserved for, intelligence if you're solo.

 

[Zourin]

Also, a lot of activities are split between multiple attributes, which I think is ingenious.

Melee focus is split between Str and Fort

Stealth is split between Perception and Agility (bows/ninjas)

Scavenging/Loothogging is Perception/Intelligence (scav/looter/trader)

Natural resourcing is split between Str and Fort

Stamina is split between Str and Agi

Defense is split between Fort (hp) and Int (tech)

A nomadic ranger type might pick up Perception for the headshot/gunnery skills, Strength for Pack Mule and natural resource gathering, and Fortitude for temperature survival, self sufficiency, and animal harvesting. And Int 7 for a motorcycle if he's not playing multiplayer where someone is the sacrificial xp-sharing nerd that gets to sit outside the POI while everyone else fights inside.

 

[caatalyst]

My group is finding the new perk system to be a really useful and interesting change. Different players focus on different aspects of the perk system, so that in the early game everyone is specialized. Eventually that will change (since by max level you can get every perk), but for right now, each of us has our own role in the group. In the old system that was less dominant.
I enjoy level-gating because I like playing a game that doesn't give me every option up front. I also really didn't like the old system where you had to grind certain skills to improve them. That got tedious and boring very quickly.

From what I've been reading, most of the players who don't like the new perk system don't like that they have to struggle in the early game. They want to be more effective at lower level so that they can do the things they want to do right from the start. That's a valid desire but it really only makes sense if you're a veteran player who wants to get to a specific type of "the good stuff."

New players, or players who get a lot more enjoyment out of the early game, probably don't mind the perk system as much because it provides big, tangible effects at each level. Being able to go from zero health regen to health regen every 15 seconds is a massive upgrade and the sense of achievement when you can get that perk is real.

Veteran players and players for whom "the good stuff" is end-game stuff are never going to like the perk system. But not everyone is a veteran, and not everyone is in it for complex hassle-free base building.

For a number of iterations of the game now, the focus of play has really been on complex, hassle-free building. The presence of zombies was a minor nuisance except on horde nights, and even then there were easy ways to mitigate the harm. But that's not the entirety of what the game is supposed to be. It's Survival as well as Crafting. This change is intended, I feel, to balance the game back toward the middle between those two aspects. The old system didn't do that - it was weighted far too heavily in favor of the Crafting half of the game.

Level gating isn't the only system for making the early game difficult. I welcome the difficulty increase that came with A17, it's one the game needed the most in my opinion.

That said, I really dislike the new perk system. I much preferred progressing by doing as it created a sense of accomplishment. There is none of that in the new system.

 

[SickPuppy]

You need 7 Int to unlock the following mandatory solo items (6pts):Leather/Iron armor & tools (2 pts) <- Steel tools/armor requires more points. It's easier to just go to the Trader

Motorcycle (3pts) <-

I see what u mean about wanting high Int. Tbh I was hoping the bicycle was a found item, it's not overly powerful and maybe something to play around with.

But as u point out if someone wanted to play a passive Int build he's restricted at lvl 20 and even needs lvl 80 to progress his build. It's just that small detail of restricting the players choice of progression that is the problem. I've been pro TFP making the game harder and more survival based for a long time and it feels great to play now. I also like how the perks are split into different categories like u say.

It's just that one small invisible wall restricting player choice that's such an artificial hinderance. Tbh A16 wasn't that much different, but we new the requirements to unlock perks and we used that specific tool or action to progress and unlock perks, which felt satisfactory to me.

But A17,

+ Locked perks no problem same as A16

+ All xp is one big pool, no problem

+ ok I earn those xp, I buy the previous sub-perk requirements, I'll even sacrifice not increasing health, I'll even sacrifice not hitting zombies harder and save those perk points, ok I've done it go to the Int perk page and "No, nope u can't progress." until lvl 20 / 80, etc.

It's a strange design and out of place as one of the strong points of 7dtd was always player choice and freedom.

 

[Zourin]

That's why I keep mentioning forges at lvl 10. Basically, i'm getting at 10 level steps instead of those huge 20 level jumps. That's basically the difference between level 80 and level 40, which sounds surprisingly better and reasonable? It's not like we're getting xp from anything BUT wandering hordes in the daylight and POI's packed with several dozen closet hobos.

By level 10, a player should be looking for a meta change, not another 10 levels of smacking things with a stone axe. Somehow, I keep finding compound crossbows, which is neat, but without a trader or a leprechaun crawling up my ass, I won't be able to obtain the forged metal to make repair kits to maintain it. As far as I'm concerned, if you're high enough of a level to suffer that stupid death penalty, you're high enough for a forge.

 

[SickPuppy]

Look at it this way, say a player is really good at stamina management and doesn't need to upgrade, doesn't need to rush the forge as the trader has everything he needs, real efficient with loot and never needs to unlock encumbrance slots.

But this guy knows one stun can mean death. He saves all those other perks he doesn't need and wants to put them into getting immune stun and max health. He might even have enough points by lvl 15-20 to unlock a full tree, but game says No, nope u can't, come back at lvl 80!? Game wants someone ready at lvl15-20 to play till lvl 80 to unlock a tree?

I'm guessing, TFP doesn't want ppl to become over powered and bored too early game. I suggest don't make the final perks so desirable that everyone rushes to it. But level gating restrictions is not fun.

edit:

Agree maybe lowering levels would help to a degree.

 

[Zourin]

I get the idea is so that players don't rush high end perk combinations like Headshot and Hidden strike (massive bow damage to sleepers), which, together, would only cost 30 points total. Rushing heavy armor, Steel Armor, and Pain Tolerance likewise would only be about 35 points to be an Axe Knight (very fun, I recommend!)

80, though, is a bit much. All the fun seems reserved for people with friends Ark/Conan style, since XP isn't split, it's duplicated between people within range, which is a good system, but bad for balance when you're putting solo vs multiplayer in the same sandbox. 2-3 players can produce multiplicative amounts of material for base defense compared to the lone survivor.

The problem is the pacing is off, the spread is top heavy, and people are feeling frustrated when they take the time to say something.

 

[SickPuppy]

Yes single player only here, I'm actually really enjoying A17 like u say making tough perk choices is also fun. But I've been ready to buy lvl 3 cardio since player lvl 8, it's just silly I'm forced to wait till lvl 30 or find magazines or buffs from elsewhere, I think vitamins have a +1 agility. But still, not a fan of level gating.