PC What are some things you miss that could be integrated back in?

None is talking about a real life simulator so I am not sure of what you are trying to say here.
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I'm talking about the anoying argument something should be implemented in this way, because this way would be realistic. And im talking in this thread because i referenced the previous argument "if you craft 1000 stone axes in reality, you will be able to craft better stone axes".

And i read this argument "because it would be realistic" in dozens of other threads recently. And it is just really anoying. And from my experience the people crying for "more realism" in the end are the first people that will complain about the changes, because it makes the game unplayable.

Yes, LBD could be done in some aspects, but LBD will always be missused if anybody finds a way how to exploit it. As there was athletics we spent the nights running in circles. However this is somehow still "balanced", spend a night crafting 1000 axes is not. Imho. It's about balance, not about realism. If you can max level your stone axes with spamcrafting in 1-2 nights, it's useless. Then just skip it and make max level axes from the start. It's just a useless clickbloat.

And in reality you wouldn't be able to spend a whole night trying to craft stone axes, just to become better in it. You would ♥♥♥♥ing sleep!

 
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I'm talking about the anoying argument something should be implemented in this way, because this way would be realistic. And im talking in this thread because i referenced the previous argument "if you craft 1000 stone axes in reality, you will be able to craft better stone axes".
And i read this argument "because it would be realistic" in dozens of other threads recently. And it is just really anoying. And from my experience the people crying for "more realism" in the end are the first people that will complain about the changes, because it makes the game unplayable.

Yes, LBD could be done in some aspects, but LBD will always be missused if anybody finds a way how to exploit it. As there was athletics we spent the nights running in circles. However this is somehow still "balanced", spend a night crafting 1000 axes is not. Imho. It's about balance, not about realism. If you can max level your stone axes with spamcrafting in 1-2 nights, it's useless. Then just skip it and make max level axes from the start. It's just a useless clickbloat.
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When people ask for realism they don't really mean "make it exactly like in real life", they are usually trying to say "make this more believable/consistent", which is always a good thing in general. Certainly gameplay/balance should come first but both can always be achieved. If someone can't think of a way that the above for example can be balanced, it's only because they haven't thought of it yet. Then comes the question of whether it's worth implementing etc, but that's a different discussion altogether.

So to reply to the topic of this thread much like the others, I miss:

-Zombie bodies, not because they could be looted or harvested (I am against that) but because of realism's sake - I don't like that they suddenly disappear into thin air and would prefer a more elegant solution.

-LBD, there's a whole new system in place now though so integrating it back in can't happen, at least not in its previous form.

-Hunger/thirst bars, because streamlining the UI could be done in a hundred different ways other than completely obscuring vital information and the blackened health/stamina bars do not accurately represent them.

-That steep difficulty increase and number of zombies in cities (would like a more zone dependent and less GS depedent world in general).

 
When people ask for realism they don't really mean "make it exactly like in real life", they are usually trying to say "make this more believable/consistent", which is always a good thing in general.
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No, i don't think so. Most people are not game designers and have no clue how balancing works. They just focus on one speciel thing they want to have changed and don't think much further. And if some grind lover thinks this should be done this way, that will piss of another player who doesn't want to grind that much but just do things.

Certainly gameplay/balance should come first but both can always be achieved. If someone can't think of a way that the above for example can be balanced, it's only because they haven't thought of it yet.
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Yes and no. I don't think that this can be achieved always. But of course there might be a solution i haven't thought of yet. And that is exactly why i asked, how anybody thinks this could be achieved? There might be a solution, but that solution is not found yet. And just "readd LBD for crafting, because i liked it and it is realisitc" is not a solution. It already failed. Just being realistic is no argument at all, because it ignores balancing completely. So just bring it back is not an option. Suggesting other mechanics for LBD might be a solution.

So repeat my question once again:

HOW to bring back LBD without being able to spam it?

Still taking into account that TFP already stated dozens of times that they will NOT bring it back. But if someone brings up a really nice idea nobody had ever thought of before and that might work it might be nice.

But "because it's realistic" is not a valid argument.

 
But "because it's realistic" is not a valid argument.
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Feedback is like that. People usually express sentiments not solutions, or solutions that are efficient and can be applied. As you said not everyone is a developer/designer or understands what can/can't be done. It is the developers' job to interpret these sentiments into working solutions, if they want to.

 
As you said not everyone is a developer/designer or understands what can/can't be done. It is the developers' job to interpret these sentiments into working solutions, if they want to.
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Yes and no. This is a forum. It's meant for discussions. So if someone states "bring it back again but make it different" it's a totally valid question on how this person thinks "different" should look like. And the question is not limited to the author of the question. If nobody can bring up a better suggestion, and maybe not even the developers themselfs, the whole discussion is pointless. And then "because it is realistic" or "i liked it better" is still no argument at all.

I'm totally not a friend of people requesting everybody to have a solution just because they recognize a problem. The problem is still there, but the problem is currently solved with other changes. But if NOBODY can bring up even an idea... there is no reasonable solution and further complaints like "but i still want to have it back" are invalid.

 
Yes and no. This is a forum. It's meant for discussions. So if someone states "bring it back again but make it different" it's a totally valid question on how this person thinks "different" should look like. And the question is not limited to the author of the question. If nobody can bring up a better suggestion, and maybe not even the developers themselfs, the whole discussion is pointless. And then "because it is realistic" or "i liked it better" is still no argument at all.
I'm totally not a friend of people requesting everybody to have a solution just because they recognize a problem. The problem is still there, but the problem is currently solved with other changes. But if NOBODY can bring up even an idea... there is no reasonable solution and further complaints like "but i still want to have it back" are invalid.
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You seem to misunderstand what I am saying. I am not saying that discussion shouldn't be made and that solutions shouldn't be discussed (I love doing these things myself), or that your question wasn't valid. I am saying that not everyone will give you a legitimate solution about something or elaborately explain what they mean by "because it is realistic". I already told you you shouldn't take "realistic" at face value or think it means simulating real life - beyond that it's up to you to understand why.

Feedback in most situations is exactly that - describing the problem nothing more nothing less. But of course, discussing solutions is even better and gets nice discussions going, which is what the forum is about.

Now about LBD, it has been discussed dozens of times and various possible solutions have been mentioned with the developers participating in the discussion as well. As I don't have enough time to mention them all here, you can do a search and I guarantee you will come up with a lot of results about it. One solution has been briefly mentioned in this thread already - diminishing returns that won't make spam-crafting worth abusing. These returns can be time, recipe, etc related, and along with a proper material economy, the player would either need a significant investment to actually consistently train himself, which will balance the progression curve, however while still getting the satisfaction of "learning by doing" and progressively becoming better at something they use.

 
Spam Crafting. If I make a stone axe 1000 times, I should get better at making stone axes.
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I agree, the level up by doing idea was good. The problem was that it was too easy to make stone axes. It would be better if it took several hours to make one axe, but doing so would give you skill. Then you would have to plan out what you want to build, instead of making 10 zillion steel frames in an instant.

 
I agree, the level up by doing idea was good. The problem was that it was too easy to make stone axes. It would be better if it took several hours to make one axe, but doing so would give you skill. Then you would have to plan out what you want to build, instead of making 10 zillion steel frames in an instant.
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Diminishing returns would be my solution.

You'll learn more crafting your first five axes than you will crafting the last five hundred. Simply have less xp for crafting multiple items of the same type. This also forces the crafting player to scavenge/barter for certain items of loot they otherwise wouldn't use to get the xp bonus.

 
Spam crafting is not a bad idea - how TFP implemented it was a bad idea. I should be able to get better at crafting axes when I've crafted a hundred of them. I should NOT be able to level up my axes as fast as we used to be able to do. It wasn't the concept that was faulty, it was the implementation.
Bring back spam crafting, but don't let me max out my axe in just a half hour of spam crafting.
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Diminishing returns would be my solution.
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Well, if you are insistent on leveling crafting via quantity, they could have handled that differently without worrying about adding in some complicated diminishing returns algorithm. They could have done something like stone axe = ridiculously small amount of xp, like 1xp. Then crafting steel axes could be much more xp. This way, if someone does manage to spam-craft steel axes, they kinda deserve their gains for all that effort, and time and resource loss. Same goes for all the tiers of items/tools/weapons

The standing on cactus issue for leveling armor, could have just been resolved by balancing the cost of repair. If someone really wanted to do it, they could... though it shouldn't be an efficient method.

All in all, I agree. It could have worked just fine if they invested some thought into it and implemented things better. LBD should happen, but attempts to grind it should be futile... then players won't feel obligated to do it or feel like grinding is the best way to level up so they must do it in order to compete in MP.

What else was bad about LBD? These are the only two arguments I see pop up all the time regarding it.

 
What else are you going to do at night? Can't sleep, zombies running all over the place. Might as well see if I can upgrade this axe...
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I'd like to see farming returned to it's glory. WTF is up with having to use farm plots? Seriously - does anyone like that? Am I the only one that thinks that was one of the TFP's stupidest ideas ever? Yes, my bias is showing...
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Mining, crafting, cooking, sorting the inventory. And i actually like the new farming. I just love that i can just harvest and it grows again. Placing the seeds was such a pain. And don´t get me started about that stupid gardening hoe. Ugh. I hated that thing.

 
How to achieve that? Being able to craft only one axe per hour? Increase crafting time to 30min per axe?
"Realism" is an anyoing argument. It's a game, not a real-life-simulator. So make it realistic would mean increase crafting time to 30min or higher, because of realism. I'm sure you will not be able to craft a stone axe in 15s in real life, do you? So ask your self: Would you like to play the game if it would be overally realistic?

I'm almost sure you are not able to craft a 4x4 just by reading some books in not even a second.
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Balance. It has nothing to do with realism, it has to do with balancing this un-realistic fantasy situation so that we have fun without abusing a feature. There is a balance somewhere between being totally nerfed, and being open to abuse. TFP simply needs to find this balance.

 
Dogs.
I miss the old days when you would constantly get attacked by dogs in the towns, like in this vid:

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lol ♥♥♥♥ like that needs to happen every so often. Utterly unfair, where your only reasonable option is "run away!".

I absolutely love the idea of putting a low-grade pattern matcher on the voice chat so sometimes saying "dog" spawns a dog. I'm serious. If Android can run an "ok google" matcher when the phone's asleep, 7dtd can identify magic words too.

 
Suggestion:

Everyone here (because you are only reading this because there is something you missed from previous alphas) should install the mod launcher and replay a previous alpha once more. I am doing it now. There are two reasons for this: 1. It gives you a refresher of what you think you missed, and why. I am not saying it will be less dramatic or not important, in contrast it will actually be more clear why you miss the particular mechanic that was removed. Sometimes memory alone cannot recapture the exact reason. 2. You may be incorrect as to what/why something was better in the previous alpha. But you will remember something else that seems just a minor thing at first, but come to realize that it had a strong impact that you missed.

Its a good eye opener.

For me, I liked A16 the most. Not to say I like everything about A16, but its short-comings were the least? For instance, that thing about making 1000 axes did not exist. And LBD is not what most people imagine. The skills were broken into tools, weapons, armor, and rifles. These skills dictated the quality level of the item. Even if you combined them, it stopped you from combining items past you skill level. And the skills were player level gated. So, not truly LBD, and not able to spam craft. Your crafting exp did go up with crafting, but that only helped crafting time, not quality. So there would be no benefit to wasting that much wood (you could scrap to get the stone back) for crafting a 1000 axes.

One of the very first things that I noticed that I missed was a general feel of earning personal goals. Its not as easy as one particular thing. For starters, I was shocked at how rare having a shooting weapon and ammo was. And the first ones I got in the first 4 weeks are weak and almost useless on a daily basis. It makes you focus on your craft-able resources so much more. Something like feathers becomes all too important at times.

You may also notice some things that you miss from the current alpha. That gyrocopter would be awesome in late game A16.

 
Now about LBD, it has been discussed dozens of times and various possible solutions have been mentioned with the developers participating in the discussion as well. As I don't have enough time to mention them all here, you can do a search and I guarantee you will come up with a lot of results about it. One solution has been briefly mentioned in this thread already - diminishing returns that won't make spam-crafting worth abusing. These returns can be time, recipe, etc related, and along with a proper material economy, the player would either need a significant investment to actually consistently train himself, which will balance the progression curve, however while still getting the satisfaction of "learning by doing" and progressively becoming better at something they use.
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A lot of people seem to forgot this....they actually had fixed spam-crafting with diminishing returns and a hard level cap, in the final iteration of LBD in alpha 16.4. SO THE ISSUE WAS ALREADY FIXED. Those people who keep citing spam-crafting as a negative to the LBD model are just being mischievous or having convenient selective memory.

 
Here comes the "stupid".... Tin cans were once used to collect water, and boil it WITHOUT a cooking pot.

You can actually do this (to some degree), so it's a good mechanic in a survival game. Just allow the finished product to stack, and we're good to go!

 
I miss the lakes with meandering streams and I miss the old terrain.

Specifically , I'm not real fussy about the big muddy hills we have now.

Also I wish we didn't have to hunt the zombies to advance so much.

 
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