HammerDano
Hunter
we'd also need a gong and a hook for all your "jokes" that fall flatCan we add a Gremlin icon please?
I exclusively want to use it with @theFlu every time he's twisting and playfully trolling other people...
PC V3.0 Dead Hot Summer Dev Diary
- Thread starter Laz Man
- Start date
HammerDano
Hunter
thanks for popping in...is this a one of? or can "we" expect to start getting the updated information soon?
Roland
Community Moderator
I’ve done it a few times and it isn’t hard to skip the 4 skill points. They are the easiest and fastest to earn of all your skill points of the entire game and they accrue pretty quickly. You can still create the basis of your character from them.
Don’t jump to “stupid” as the only reason too quickly. Even my mind can conceive of a reason other than stupid to want to earn those first four skill points through gameplay rather than doing the tutorial and getting a gps to the trader. My memory also reveals that just recently someone else was opining that getting a gps beacon to the trader in the first place is one of the modern deficiencies of the game. Trading the easiest four skill points to earn in the game for the glorious gameplay loop of searching and discovering the location of the trader on your own wouldn’t be so stupid to the one who really does want desperately to start the game lost and without hand-holding— but only providing their claim to want that is actually true and not just blowing smoke on the forums. <shrug>.
What can I say? I’m a giver.... Thanks for the feed?
theFlu
Hunter
Right. That sounds quite like "don't jump to 'lying' too quickly". You've now touched upon a whole lot of nuance on the starter quest, and yet you maintain that everyone who complains about it is just a liar.
My original question still remains, why do you do that? Do you expect people to change their mind when they get called a liar? Or do you just expect them to stop bothering (with) you? Or something else - feel free to actually think about it before replying.
Why do you group people in vague buckets and then paint them all a shade of despicable?
(And no, I don't care about the starter quest, I'm just curious what do you feel you get from your underhanded namecalling?)
4sheetzngeegles
Hunter
That was funny. I really do that, I know it isn't a popular thought, but I adjust things to recreate
scenarios from the WD series. I play really slow compared to most posts I read. I don't META
check, I am content just trying to survive as long as I can.
Roland
Community Moderator
Thats why I worded it that way. I’m not the only one who categorizes as an opinion. You say it’s stupid to skip the first 4 skill points. But I’m not going to make the leap that you’re calling people who do that stupid even though you often take that leap when characterizing my opinions. I figure it’s one of the ways you like to troll me.
“Lying” doesn’t have to be with the intent to deceive for nefarious purposes. It can also be along the lines of lying to oneself or not being aware or mindful of what your truly want.
I don’t think anyone is lying in the sense of intentionally trying to ruin the reputation of the game or cause flame wars on the forum. But I maintain that when someone says they think the game is better without the tutorial and first trader beacon because they remember how much they loved finding him on their own through exploration—but then refuse to play that way when they can then it’s not true that they think the game is better without the beacon and tutorial. What’s a good word for saying untruths…?
I don’t do that all the time. I do it when I believe it’s applicable and in this case I haven’t read anything that convinces me that when someone has a viable option to toggle off a mechanic they say they don’t like but they don’t take that option then they are deceiving themselves. They must like it if better if they refuse to take the option.
I’ve tried different mods and options because I wondered if I would like them better and sometimes I did and sometimes I didn’t. When I didn’t I switched back to how I preferred it to be.
Why do I point that stuff out? Because it’s good to be mindful of what you truly want and what you say you want. This is a forum where we discuss thoughts regarding the gameplay of 7 Days to Die.
I do doubt the person I’m talking to will actually change their persoective but there are many readers and maybe one or two of those might slap their forehead and think “Dang! I could just not do the tutorial challenge group and then I could just find the trader on my own which is something I’ve missed!”
It’s for the readers.
Again, that’s you injecting your assumptions about my intent and making a leap to read my posts in the worst possible light. You’ve admitted you enjoy trolling people and me in particular so it’s no wonder that is one of your tactics. I don’t think nor have I said that anyone who hates the gps handholding to the trader but refuses to play the option that lets them avoid that is despicable. I said they are lying about what they truly want. Not all lies are despicable lies. That is just you taking what I said to the nth nefarious degree because you like trolling me.
Pointing out that a statement is a lie given conditions is a far cry from actually underhandedly namecalling. You are the only one who has been slinging the “liar” namecalling around. Just because I think a statement posted on a forum happens to be a lie doesn’t mean I think the person who typed it is a no good dirty despicable liar.
I’m calling it as I see it. A lie. But a pretty innocuous lie about someone’s beliefs about their own feelings regarding a video game. So no I don’t think they’re despicable for that and if other readers think it through and have an epiphany about their own preferences as a result, it’s fine that the person I’m talking to decides to just keep complaining and ignoring the option that would get them what they say they want. And you can keep ascribing to me the worst possible motives and meanings to the words I type to have your fun.
Roland
Community Moderator
I want to swing back to this because it made me think. Wouldn’t it be better to ignore the challenge quest and earn those first four skill points through playing since the first four are the easiest and fastest four to gain— and save completing the tutorial challenge group for like Day 30+ when getting 4 free skill points at that stage of the game would be so much more valuable?
When a skillpoint costs 100,000 xp to gain rather than 1000 xp to gain, when would be best moment to cash in for 4 free skillpoints? Saying that ignoring the 4 free skillpoints at the start of the game is an obviously stupid move could very well turn out to be….a lie.
Adam the Waster
Hunter
THE GODS HAVE SPOKEN!!! and now im really excited
Lax
Survivor
Being in denial? Not the one in Egypt...
theFlu
Hunter
Everyone who X is Y.
An action is stupid.
Everyone who drives a car is stupid.
Speeding is stupid.
Spot the difference.
This explains a lot; you don't know the game mechanics. You assume there's no speed limit, so you like to drive as fast as you can.When a skillpoint costs 100,000 xp to gain rather than 1000 xp to gain, when would be best moment to cash in for 4 free skillpoints? Saying that ignoring the 4 free skillpoints at the start of the game is an obviously stupid move could very well turn out to be….a lie.
Skillpoints have no penalty associated. Only levels do, XP per level goes up per Level. Not per skillpoint. Spending those 4 can make you quicker to earn XP.
It is Mechanically Stupid; it has no upside. Speeding is smarter, at least you get there faster.
What? That's the literal definition. (EDIT: lol at webster previewing the wrong one ... )
Definition of LIE
to be or to stay at rest in a horizontal position : be prostrate : rest, recline; to assume a horizontal position —often used with down; to reside temporarily : stay for the night : lodge… See the full definition
If you mean "lying to yourself", then say so; if I mean "airplane", I don't say "air" and expect you to fill in the blanks.
If I don't like the "challenge" of swapping gear every 5 seconds because it sucks in the UI sense, am I not deincentivized? OR might I have a valid complaint of the quality of the game?
So, I refuse to give up the 4 points in a general run, since they're part of the game balance. And I find the starter quest boring and railroady. Am I lying to myself? Or to you?
I want to swing back to this because it made me think. Wouldn’t it be better to ignore the challenge quest and earn those first four skill points through playing since the first four are the easiest and fastest four to gain— and save completing the tutorial challenge group for like Day 30+ when getting 4 free skill points at that stage of the game would be so much more valuable?
When a skillpoint costs 100,000 xp to gain rather than 1000 xp to gain, when would be best moment to cash in for 4 free skillpoints? Saying that ignoring the 4 free skillpoints at the start of the game is an obviously stupid move could very well turn out to be….a lie.
This would be correct if the XP gap per skillpoint was dependend on skillpoints already acrued. But the XP gap is AFAIK linked to your level. And you are still the same level before and after you get the 4 points from the initial quests.
4sheetzngeegles
Hunter
I love it when Roland gets on a roll and theflu responds. It reminds me of this every time.
Roland
Community Moderator
True but the rate of gaining skillpoints declines as the cost to level up increases so earning those early four by leveling up to Level 5 is negligible. It happens fast and you feel about in the same position as you would have been perks-wise after a week or two ingame.
Once you reach the point where it takes a long time to level and therefore get a skill point being able to get four at once is more valuable because of how much longer you would need to play to earn them through leveling up at that point.
theFlu
Hunter
Randomly getting a +4 at a level in the 30-50 range would be "optimal"; sure. But 34 points at level 30 sounds even better, no? So just play without spending any, and you'll have a massive payday just when you quit the run.
Roland
Community Moderator
Randomly getting a +4 at a level in the 30-50 range would be "optimal"; sure. But 34 points at level 30 sounds even better, no? So just play without spending any, and you'll have a massive payday just when you quit the run.
It may not be level 30 specifically where the 4 points from the tutorial would be the best. I mainly threw that out as a representative of mid to late game. I've never suggested saving all points to spend at the end of the run is the right way to go. Once again you like to take statements and push them to ridiculous exaggerations as some kind of proof that it is a bad idea or just to troll. Almost any strategy or argument or belief or opinion taken to the most extreme level is going to break down which is why nobody does that except as a hyperbolic device to try and prove a point that ends up not even relating.
My contention is that in general the 4 points might be better later than they are in the very beginning or if not better then at least a viable parallel strategy that removes absolutely needing those 4 points on day one as a reason not activate the trader gps. You can quickly get up to speed with skills in the early game. Maybe the optimal use is to pay for a couple of the 2-skill point cost tiers in your attribute which would be way sooner than level 30 but still later than day one and give you time to discover the trader on your own. Maybe it is simply whenever a player feels like they've been stuck with the same skills for a while and a 4 point boost in an area could get them going again.
Playing the entire game at level+4 skillpoints might be the strongest but it also may be more strength than is strictly necessary for a player to easily keep up with the difficulty curve. If that is the case, then it is perfectly viable to play with skillpoints = to your level up to the point that you feel you need the boost plus someone who says they miss that old school vibe of finding the trader on theirr own (if that is truly what you actually want) can do it and not feel like they have sacrificed too much.
theFlu
Hunter
The ones "from the tutorial" are objectively best in the morning of Day 1; that's not in question. There's no reason not to spend as soon as you can obtain them. But for hypothetical 4 other randomly appearing points (actually outside of player control), they would probably Feel the best at around 30 - for that is the level range where you're waiting to max out your first attribute, and just waiting for multiple levels to do so. But the same applies otherwise, the earlier you get them, the better. Later on, past 50-60 they'd feel (and be) useless.
Yes, it's a variant of reductio ad absurdum; it's a method to investigate where a position will break, an invitation to find and describe other limiting factors. It is not hostile, you can employ it against your own ideas, if you choose; it is bloody useful at times. Your reaction looks like "that's unfair", pointing to a failure point somewhere - while in game mechanics there's no distinction. Would you argue for saving 5 points, or is that already absurd in your opinion? The tutorial points are not different.
It doesn't improve the nature of the starter quest, even if you can skip it. And even if it did NOT reward those points, it would still be boring and railroady. I would never argue you _can't_ skip it, as I still maintain that you can play the game just fine actually without spending a single skill point, ever.
But no matter what you Can do in the game, doesn't change the fact that that part is boring and railroady.
BFT2020
Hunter
HammerDano
Hunter
in related "news" the job listing for Senior Community Manager, posted about a month ago, was closed almost a week ago...hopefully they are close to filling the position.
Post automatically merged:
agreed...this is MUCH better than a reference to an old show only old farts, semi remember. lol
BFT2020
Hunter
Typically companies post a job offering for a period of time, then close it to go through the applicants that applied for the position. I have seen times at my job where they posted a job, went through the candidates, did not choose anyone, and then repost the same job offering again. It is typically a sign of progress being made, but not always that they are reaching the end goal.
Riamus
Hunter
If they reworked it in some way, that might be viable. But since you can't do any other challenges until you complete that set of tutorial challenges, it pretty much sources you to complete them at least somewhat early in the have unless you don't want to do any challenges.I want to swing back to this because it made me think. Wouldn’t it be better to ignore the challenge quest and earn those first four skill points through playing since the first four are the easiest and fastest four to gain— and save completing the tutorial challenge group for like Day 30+ when getting 4 free skill points at that stage of the game would be so much more valuable?
When a skillpoint costs 100,000 xp to gain rather than 1000 xp to gain, when would be best moment to cash in for 4 free skillpoints? Saying that ignoring the 4 free skillpoints at the start of the game is an obviously stupid move could very well turn out to be….a lie.
I do agree that waiting to complete those until after you find the first trader is a good option for people who want the challenge of finding the trader. Though I don't really think it is much of a challenge since they will always be at the road entrance to a town. When they were in the middle of town for a version, then it could actually be challenging, which was nice.
Maybe they should just remove the points for competing the tutorial challenges and not require completing those before completing others. No points in your weapon right away would also slow people down a little bit towards maxing out their weapons quickly, which is a common complaint.
For everyone upset about the tutorial here, they should try Night of the Dead. The "quests" they are basically a tutorial can take hours to complete entirely, though you can skip doing them if you don't mind missing out on the rewards. You will still complete many just through normal gameplay, but there are a lot of them. It is a good game for something somewhat similar to this one. It is also a good option for people who want a ton of intermediate steps to craft things.