JaWoodle Video "What's Happening with 7 Days to Die?"

I really like this game. City generation is fantastic. I just drive around towns sometimes marvelling at how real it feels. But I think some things have to be said even if I will still recommend the game to folks and Jawoodles video sums it up very well. Btw I bought the one DLC outfit I found decent JUST to support FunPimps. I created a second steam account just to be able to buy a second copy of 7d2d to run at home in co-op so I could show the game to friends. I like to think I am a fairly dedicated 7d2d player. I will never run with biome progresson on. That is not sandbox play. Sorry but its dumb. Love you guys at FunPimp and thats why I say this. Watch this video and think about what Jawodle says.

 
nocTTis said:
This JW video says pretty much everything most players want to say.
On top of the “DLCs,” they’re already talking about making another game when they can’t even finish the first one.
I honestly hope they listen to the community and make this game better—otherwise, they’d be better off selling it to a more capable team.
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Fun fact: Most game developers with a crew of more than say 25(?) people are probably working on multiple games at times. Why? Because those 25 people are specialists with their own area and some of them are finished with a game before others. Instead of sitting around idly or getting laid off they work on the next game.

One prominent example is the game designer. When he is done, the programmers are still hard at work implementing stuff and fixing all the bugs.

Also game developers above a certain size often have 2 crews working on different games, makes them less prone to going bankrupt when one game doesn't sell. This also seems to have happened to TFP, they hired a second crew for a game with the unreal engine.



Now @nocTTis , can you tell me what is wrong about that? Should part of the developers just sit around for months or years and do nothing except wait for the next paycheck ?
 
Movement? Not sure whether I would describe the opposition to storms and biome hazards as a movement. The update was certainly polarizing but many of the complaints are from people who were already predisposed to do so because of long-standing bitterness. The xbox and PS5 part of the community seems to be much more tolerant of the changes than the steam community if recent reviews are any indication and the main defining difference between those communities is the baggage of past undesired changes. These people won't even look at the fact that storms and biome hazards are optional as a positive but instead sneer that it is indicative that the developers knew ahead of time that they would be unpopular mechanics.

I'm not writing this to defend storms or biome hazards even though I disagree strongly with many critics with exactly how much they curtail the sandbox nature of the game or force particular playstyles. I definitely would like to see improvements to those features. But I do disagree on any kind of movement. A movement requires solidarity of purpose and consensus on "the goal". There is just too much discord within the ranks of the critics, themselves, on what they want. Some rabidly want the features removed entirely which is patently stupid since they are optional and there are players out there who actually do like them. Some just want LBD returned, period, and will never be satisfied with anything less than that. I've heard critics demand wellness to be returned which you would rather not see returned. In fact, every feature that you outlined as not needing to be revisited is a hot topic for some other critic and a deal breaker if TFP doesn't return that feature.

I believe that most players who are dissatisfied with storms and biome hazards are willing to wait patiently to see how they are adjusted. Those who have read developer comments that they do plan to implement temperature still are not nearly as up in arms as those who must have no idea that it isn't gone forever.

But there are plenty of "burn the world" types out there who will never view any further offerings of TFP in a positive light because the game changed years ago from what they thought it should be and TFP has refused to comply with them. They will post dismissive doom and gloom posts that bandits will never come and there will never be a story right up until the moment those features are released and then they will immediately bash them as things nobody asked for or wanted. These people have been around ever since A16 turned into A17 and then when A17 turned into A18 and they realized that TFP was truly going to forever abandon the A16 design model that was it.

Now, I applaud critics giving voice to their dissatisfaction using the review system. I absolutely believe it is the only way to put pressure on the devs to make those adjustments sooner rather than later. But I also applaud the devs for taking the time to guage all reactions and to give the player base time to adjust and adapt to the changes and see what new gameplay emerges. For myself, I have found that the moment a storm warning starts I have my map open looking for a POI I can race the storm to and I absolutely enjoy that part of the game now. I could have just boxed myself in-not just with building blocks but with fixed beliefs but I tried different responses to the storm and came up with something that was thrilling and never before possible in the game. Racing against an impending event that can mean death (and bad steering) is a new gameplay loop that is tons of fun-- especially if I don't quite make it and the bad steering kicks in haha.
 
I think the biggest thing that speaks to the quality of the update was the lack of concurrent players that hasn't even peaked past the release of A21. Hell, usually you'll see 7DTD's twitter account making a post about how the release of whatever update peaked the concurrent player count, and there's been nothing since the release.
 
Arma Rex said:
How thoughtful that this thread got moved out of the more popular general discussion subforum to the images and videos tab, even though this was a discussion post talking about the points laid out in the video.
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I wasn't the one who moved it but I can see why it was given the way the OP was organized. If the OP had simply posted their thoughts without linking the video this would definitely have remained in General. I bet it would have remained in General if the video link was posted at the end of all their text instead of at the top.

Images and Videos is for doing exactly what the OP did. Posting an image or a video as the purpose of the thread and then discussing it. The OP's comments are in reaction to the video they shared. I'm sure the thread will get lots of comments regardless of where it ends up.
 
Arma Rex said:
I think the biggest thing that speaks to the quality of the update was the lack of concurrent players that hasn't even peaked past the release of A21. Hell, usually you'll see 7DTD's twitter account making a post about how the release of whatever update peaked the concurrent player count, and there's been nothing since the release.
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This and the recent reviews dropping to mixed are sure to be powerful motivators for adjustments and tweaks to happen sooner rather than later. I just hope the adjustments aren't too reactionary. For example, I firmly believe that the storms should kill the player. If they adjust things so that they don't kill the player quite so fast or add items to mitigate the damage then I, personally, would be happy with the changes. But if they replace health damage with something trivial like stamina drain or blurred vision and remove all the threat to your survival then I won't be happy at all.

For the biome feature I would like to see a change to the badge icons to more realistic gear and I would like to see a much shorter grace period timer but a longer smoothie timer and ultimately I'd like to see each biome have unique tasks to accomplish rather than just the same tasks repeated. Personally, I like the progression of the biomes and it doesn't hurt my sandbox sensibilities to have to go through them in the prescribed order. But if they change the first task to not require the previous biome's immunity, I would be fine with the result since I understand many others would like to do the biomes in any order.

But what I know is that the loudest opposition still won't be happy with adjustments to storms and biome progression because their beef with TFP isn't even really about something that is optional. They want changes reversed that happened years ago that TFP just isn't going to reverse for this game.
 
zztong said:
They did? I still see it on the Basic tab, Blood Moon Count: 64 Enemies. Perhaps it is a platform limit? I'm looking on PC.



I'm going to quibble a little. I wouldn't characterize the Devs as being "inactive" or accuse them of "inaction." It assumes too much. They develop in private. We do get to talk to them here a bit and they're reasonable people.

Then I'm going to ask, "who are the loudest voices that are dictating things?" Where do they express themselves because I'd like to hang out there. It isn't here. Nobody regularly appearing on this forum gets to dictate things.
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They’re people like JaWoodle. They’re youtubers, people who have lots of pull online, people that can start “save tf2” and “fix tf2”, start waves of review bombs etc. where are they for this game? I guess it’s just the youtube because 7 days to die doesn’t have the massive player base that other games do and we complain here on the forums all the live long day and still nothing… :’) And they don’t get to dictate things but they can be effective in getting people to do something big to get the devs to do… well… anything
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ProlificPoultry said:
They’re people like JaWoodle. They’re youtubers, people who have lots of pull online, people that can start “save tf2” and “fix tf2”, start waves of review bombs etc. where are they for this game? I guess it’s just the youtube because 7 days to die doesn’t have the massive player base that other games do and we complain here on the forums all the live long day and still nothing… :’) And they don’t get to dictate things but they can be effective in getting people to do something big to get the devs to do… well… anything
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Also if you press f1 during the horde night you’ll see a number next to the zombies spawned. This number will not reach 64. This was changed, rather cryptically in 1.2. No more 64 zombie hordes and the fact that they still have that in the options is beyond scummy
 
meganoth said:
There are good examples of public outcry making things better, I agree. Especially in the game scene where voting with your wallet simply doesn't work. But I also have seen many negative examples as well.
And one thing seems to be troubling us the same: That influencers who appeal to viewers emotions and are more sensational (and therefore more entertaining) are more successful than influencers who try to argue with facts. Or simpler said the populists win.
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I would say JaWoodle is guilty of what you’re saying except he actually has made a well organized video with reasoned logical points and facts. Yeah it’s a bit on the nose with the video title and thumbnail but again… as I keep saying, the loudest voices and all. JaWoodle is pretty divisive because of his personality but he’s a good grasp on most of the negative player sentiment from what I’ve seen.

I’m sick of mediocrity. This is my favorite game, I just want to see it be better and the best it can be. I’ve never loved everything about it and I never will but I don’t think its contentious to say that the way they’ve implemented the crafting, the survival, and the storms is at best mediocre and at worst… s***.

It’s like Daredevil. Seasons 1-3 were so good and everyone was so excited when born again was announced only for it to be so incredibly mediocre. And it was delayed too. People say it’s as good as the original when objectively the pacing, the writing, the attention to detail and character development were subpar.

No one should be content with mediocrity
 
nocTTis said:
This JW video says pretty much everything most players want to say.
On top of the “DLCs,” they’re already talking about making another game when they can’t even finish the first one.
I honestly hope they listen to the community and make this game better—otherwise, they’d be better off selling it to a more capable team.
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"most players want to say"

There we go again. Stop talking on behalf of "most players". Makes you look, well....not smart.
 
EvilPolygons said:
That's literally a subjective opinion concerning a matter of taste. An objective statement would be something like, "According to the dictionary, you are misusing the term 'objectively'."
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Here's an objective opinion: 2.0 is less popular than both A21 and the 1.0 release. There are less players for 2.0 than in both of the aforementioned versions. 2.0 is also receiving a mixed recent review status due to these changes.
 
The JaWoodles of this game have about as much chance as the MisterChurches of Fallout 76 to influence much, if anything, going on within TFP's decision-making processes as Bethesda's decision-making processes. They're fighting an uphill battle they can't win against overwhelming industry practices and influences that obviously have influenced the way the gaming industry is headed in general and, given the roadmap, it's far too late to salvage this particular game from those overwhelming influences, imo. It's too far gone. As for the next TFP endeavor? Who knows? Guess I'll check back when they have any information to share with us about it. In the meantime, all I can do is wish them well and the kind of success that hasn't been reduced to financial "success" alone.

I'd say it's healthy that such "social media influencers" (a phenomenon I will never understand) haven't relinquished their own powers of reasoning, common sense, empathy, etc. in a world that demands they do so in the name of Urizen and Mammon, but that's about it. I only hope those who listen to them won't relinquish theirs either.
 
Arma Rex said:
Here's an objective opinion: 2.0 is less popular than both A21 and the 1.0 release. There are less players for 2.0 than in both of the aforementioned versions. 2.0 is also receiving a mixed recent review status due to these changes.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but I wouldn't know if you are or not because I haven't bothered to look at any sort of numbers. Why would I? My enjoyment of a game isn't based on whether or not other people enjoy it.

I'm enjoying 7DTD now as much as I did when I bought it. 7DTD is one of (if not THE) best modding platforms I've ever spent money on. If there's something I don't like, I fix it. If there's something I want changed, I change it. Because I'm not lazy whiner.

...actually that last bit is a lie. I am pretty lazy, tbh.
 
ProlificPoultry said:
They’re people like JaWoodle.
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So influencers are the people that dictate features? (Crud, another reminder I'm a nobody in a big world.)

I mean, I get that if you have a following it could become influential to the Devs. But I'm not sure I entirely follow the logic here, so set me straight ... JaWoodle has a big following so he can dictate features to the Devs, and that's what he's doing in this video... dictating? If so, has JaWoodle just not dictated until now? Can I blame the things I don't like on him for either dictating against my goals or failing to dictate?

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm picking a fight here. That isn't my intent, but you know the Internet. We read each other funny sometimes and I'm certainly capable of misreading folks.

ProlificPoultry said:
I’m sick of mediocrity. This is my favorite game, I just want to see it be better and the best it can be. I’ve never loved everything about it and I never will but I don’t think its contentious to say that the way they’ve implemented the crafting, the survival, and the storms is at best
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There's a few things to unpack in there. I mean, I think it is safe to say anyone on these boards considers it a favorite and would like to see it be the best it can be. Of course, we don't all see eye to eye with each other or the Devs about what features should be in the game, so everyone is going to have unsatisfied desires.

What I do find contentious is implication that the Devs aren't trying. They've had a prototyping approach to development all along. I thought I read they were working on more changes and adjustments for 2.2.

It is perhaps unusual to be carrying out that approach under a 1.0 and 2.0 label, but there are no rules to software development methodologies other than to please the folks writing the payroll cheques. If a label is what it took to bring the game to the consoles, then that's okay with me. I do understand some people took the new labels and the roadmap as a sign or promise of changed behavior and recognize that is disappointing.

ProlificPoultry said:
People say it’s as good as the original when objectively the pacing, the writing, the attention to detail and character development were subpar.
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Unless you're going to be specific and show something, I think you mean 'subjectively.' I'm certainly guilty of the slip too. I caught myself saying A16 was objectively worse than a modern version, but that is just my opinion. If I wanted to talk of comparing the resolution of textures I could get into an objective statement. If I got into comparing A16 and 2.0 skill systems, that boil down to being my opinion, so subjective.

Back to JaWoodle, we know conclusively it is his opinion. We can infer that others share it based on the number of likes. They're borderline objective. We can't be entirely sure what those likes mean. Do you give a like if you agree with more than 50% of his opinions? 75%? 100%? If 50%, which ones didn't you like?

Also, I "like" videos on series I watch so that I know if I've seen the video already or not and because I know it helps the creator make money. I don't necessarily like them because I share the creator's opinion. We also don't get to see how many dislikes there were. I'm not sure YouTube even tracks that. I sometimes wonder if the button is there just to make the user feel better, but I'm not deep into how YouTube works.

That said, I think it would be a mistake to brush off those likes.

In a way, it's kind of like getting a cookie on these boards. Are they positive or negative? I like cookies.

Man, I'm writing too much. I've got work to do. Back to the grind...
 
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