PC V2.0 Storms Brewing Dev Diary

[Adam the Waster]

IMHO If you want blocking and shoving, play a souls-like. Zombies don't hit fast, blocking would be simply too easy.

I disagree. It simply put adds another way for combat. And modernized the game play just a bit. If not blocking and that's pushing it. A shove abiltys to for people who are holding guns would be cool. To knock at least a single zombie back (plus they could add bayonets)

We got more perks to help us, someone else already calls for nerfing them. I think it is too early for a balancing discussions. Play the game first, then judge the difficulty.

Tbh my gripe is just the color. But I'm excited too see the vampire perk that's going to go hard with spears.

Until now I always got end-game stuff too early in my games. With the loot cap it would mean I would hit the loot cap shortly after arriving in a biome and need to go to the next to get relevant loot. I.e. more biomes would make me rush through even more biomes without having time to get to know the biomes.

And we already have as many biomes now as tiers to cross. One tier for each biomes seems not too slow

And that's great. I'm not going to make this post a pimp dream again but I would add a few more tiers of progression to make it longer.

If all the biomes had biome progression. Then I don't see what's the issue would be. Even if it's small debuffs for something like a maple forest or pine forest.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:39 AM

So....what you're saying is....basically, that badges... are clue that the devs will be bringing back Learn-By-Do!

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+1 Jost!!

I think a challenge system like that for some special perks would be really cool. Like mining perks

 

[8_Hussars]

But that wasn't my point. Whether it's nerfing or buffing, if you ask for changes based on INSANE difficulty, you will surely end up unbalancing the standard game for your own sake.

The fact that you consider this change OP it's your own opinion, and it's fine, but you shouldn't be asking to change something that will affect the standard game just because you need to "fix" balancing on the most extreme difficulty level.

In my opinion the only thing that would make sense you did, would be to ask TFP to tie some of the numbers in the game to the chosen difficult level. That would avoid this players vs. players banter in these cases.

If buffs/nerfs unbalance the default standard game difficulty would it then be valid to offer balancing opinions?

 

[FranticDan]

If buffs/nerfs unbalance the default standard game difficulty would it then be valid to offer balancing opinions?

I'll end my argument for nerfing the new perks with this question.

If you can become an unkillable god on the hardest of difficulties, then what does that say about the easier difficulties?

Food for thought: On nomad, you take a whopping 60% less damage compared to insane.

 

[Riamus]

I disagree. It simply put adds another way for combat. And modernized the game play just a bit. If not blocking and that's pushing it. A shove abiltys to for people who are holding guns would be cool. To knock at least a single zombie back (plus they could add bayonets)

I'm curious why you think that having combat options is a way to modernize the game? Games have had that for a very long time... probably even back into the 90s, though I'm not going to look it up to see when the first one was. Whether or not there is blocking, parrying, pushing, kicking, biting, spitting , etc. in the game has no bearing on whether the game is modernized. Such abilities are not necessary in a game. For certain kinds of games, they are common. For others, not so much. I don't see any need to add those things to the game, but I also don't care about it if they do. About the only thing that I think would even moderately fit this game is blocking with a shield. But not other blocking or anything else. An average person (what you are in this game) could swing a weapon or stab with one, but blocking or parrying with one would be unlikely. A shield would be different. Shoving while trying to use a weapon is a good way to lose your weapon or get hurt. Kicking when trying to use a weapon is a good way to fall. Games gloss over that, of course.

If buffs/nerfs unbalance the default standard game difficulty would it then be valid to offer balancing opinions?

But we don't know how it works in the game at any difficulty. We can assume we know, but how many times have people complained about a new thing being unbalanced before trying it, only to find out that it works well once they do try it? If it is OP after we try the game, then we can ask for balancing. Until then... just wait.

 

[Arma Rex]

I think in an RPG sandbox like 7 days, they should at least add some sort of variation for hand-to-hand combat to make different character builds interesting and fun. There really shouldn't be much holding them back from doing this, maybe keyframing the first person animations might be a pain, but then again they shouldn't be using keyframe animations for first person, motion capture would be cheaper, and less time consuming to implement.

 

[BFT2020]

But by that measure, the 7 perks currently within the General tab are absolutely arbitrary. I call a bit of BS on the pros-cons and overall design consistency if that is the case. Call it what you like, but being able to get more resources from mining is exactly the same as living of the land, just different resource. Yes, I do express myself weirdly, but by no means subjectively in this case (motherlode).

Incorrect, those 7 perks were ones that were commonly requested to be placed into a general tab by the community. None of that was arbitrary. You might not think that is important, but it was for the development team when they reworked the perks for V2.0.

Game design doesn't follow rigid criteria. It doesn't have to follow one and only one criteria. When they look at the various perks, there is a lot of things that influence where they want to place them. Your criteria is simple - want those perks without having to perk into strength.

If that is what you want, you can easily mod it that way. Swapping perks is not hard to do, I have created custom ones in the past myself.

 

[trogs]

I finally watched the dev stream, here are my thoughts:

- The snowstorm doesn't look right, there's grey smoke coming from the ground and snow falling vertically with no wind. Also the damage from storms should not make us bleed. The damage would be better displayed with audio cues, like coughs, shivers, geiger counter noise or a visual cue like blurry vision and sweat in the desert.
- Storm warnings should be less intrusive and appear only the first time. Let environmental indicators be the hint going forward, or even have the traders announce it through radio;
- The previous zombie crawling animation was better than the new crouching one, because it looked primal and scary as opposed to how it looks now: civilized and polite. Also, zombies can now crawl under 1x1 spaces but we still can't? (Side note unrelated to the update, but it's understandable that players don't have it because it would lock the field of view, but there's no reason the zombies can't have a ladder climbing animation, it would add so much to the horror factor)
- We can only mine coal in the snow biome, but it's an ingredient for the burnt smoothie?
- Strength mastery 2 & 3 are not enticing at all and should be combined in one, then the other mastery perk should be shotgun exclusive;

- Overall it's good to see the progress in making this a rewarding survival experience. I like the two new zombies, the frost claw attack looks cool and well animated, as does the plague spitter. The biome progression seems balanced and reasonable and I'm excited about the storms and the seek-shelter mechanic because it'll make for some interesting unplanned enclosed exploration of POIs. Speaking of which, the new caves look great!

 

[Riamus]

Yeah,

being able to get more resources from mining is exactly the same as living of the land, just different resource.

Just to add to this... Mining is clearly a strength based activity, so the perks make sense in strength. Farming isn't really based on attribute, so that perk makes sense in general. I could accept that being left in fortitude since you need stamina to do any real farming, but that is only a so-so fit at best.

If you look at the perks through the lens if wanting to not put attribute points into anything except the tree where your weapons are, you will not like the change because it didn't move all non-weapon perks to general. But that wasn't their goal. They wanted perks to fit in their trees. And they do now. Arbor didn't fit into an attribute. Farming doesn't. About the only thing I questioned was lockpicking, which I felt fit in agility (dexterity) fine.

As far as other perks people have mentioned, advanced engineering definitely fits into intelligence. Bartering and improving quest rewards fits into intelligence fairly well also.

Look at it as a change to get things in places where they fit rather than a change to make it so you don't have to put points into attributes. That was what it was, after all.

 

[8_Hussars]

But we don't know how it works in the game at any difficulty. We can assume we know, but how many times have people complained about a new thing being unbalanced before trying it, only to find out that it works well once they do try it? If it is OP after we try the game, then we can ask for balancing. Until then... just wait.

True, we are all speculating but I would suggest its educated and informed speculation. For what its worth, the descriptions of many changes and buffs were right there in the dev stream and other vod summaries. (e.g. The Sledge is already OP and now it gets a book series, while assuming there are no nerfs to balance it out)

Many will agree the early game is the funnest. For many the point at which the the player becomes OP and zombie encounters are not scary anymore is where the playthrough generally grows dull. These buffs just hasten that process and make end game trivial.

I have consumed enough 7d2d content, to respect that Dan is a high difficulty level player and overhaul modder, who knows the game under the hood and the balance points more than most, including TFPs.

Sure we can "ask for balancing" after the fact, but thats a tough sell. How did that work out for trader rewards? They were rolled out over lucrative and were nerfed to many players dismay. I would rather it be balanced the first time.

You are right only patience and time will tell...

 

[Adam the Waster]

I'm curious why you think that having combat options is a way to modernize the game?

Simply put. The game is clunky and feels like it came out in like 2004. The gameplay should update along with it. Does it make it feel modernized? No games Like oblivion have blocking and other moves like power attack.

I'm not saying the game needs to be dying light in terms of movement and abilitys but a few extra things will be nice. Especially once bandits show up because they talked about how they want them to take cover and stuff like that. With how clunky things can feel at times that's going to be a nightmare. Especially with ranged attackers. .


The best thing I can compare 7 days to die to is fallout, Minecraft and few other games. Mainly the game when from a sandbox survival to a RPG with survival elements

 

[Space4Ace]

To all of you who are already screaming for changes to be made... Just wait and play 2.0 Experimental before asking for any changes or adjustments.
2.0 has to be experienced right from the beginning to really know what it's all about.

 

[Adam the Waster]

e.g. The Sledge is already OP and now it gets a book series, while assuming there are no nerfs to balance it out)

Not really. They used alot of stamina when when perked up. Hell that's why I never used it cuz there was no books or special mods

Plus once you ran out of stamina you were boned.

I'm happy they gave it a book. All we need is a book for knives and maybe Explosives and that's all the weapons. (Barring any new ones)

 

[zztong]

Simply put. The game is clunky and feels like it came out in like 2004. The gameplay should update along with it. Does it make it feel modernized? No games Like oblivion have blocking and other moves like power attack.

Speaking for my own tastes, I hope having lots of combat options is not a sign of a modern game. I'm typically incompetent when it comes to games with lots of different combat buttons, cooldown timers, gestures, and extensive interplay and timing with animations. "Life is Feudal" brought this to light for me (I was useless as a warrior in that game), but I had hints/clues that it would be a problem in some MMOs with lots of maneuvers. The 7D2D, Fallout, Minecraft realm is the sweet spot for me.

 

[FramFramson]

My understanding is that the loot caps are connected to the biome hazards, so you can't leave biome hazards on and disable loot caps (at least not without a mod). Otherwise, I might agree with you on that. Though I'm still not sold on biome hazards. I like to explore and having to go through a bunch of challenges every game just to do so doesn't sound like I'll end up wanting to do that. But we'll see. I'll give weather and biome hazards a try for one game. If I like them, they'll stay on. If not, they'll be turned off for good.

Yeah, I'm assuming I'll have to mod it, but I also suspect that a "removed loot cap" mod is something we'll see very quickly.

 

[8_Hussars]

Not really. They used alot of stamina when when perked up. Hell that's why I never used it cuz there was no books or special mods

Plus once you ran out of stamina you were boned.

I'm happy they gave it a book. All we need is a book for knives and maybe Explosives and that's all the weapons. (Barring any new ones)

Investing into the strength attribute mitigates the stamina usage. In 1.0 a level 5 Stone Sledge scales fine right up to crafting a Level 5 Iron Sledge, due to the range, power attack damage, and AOE knockdown. Early game stamina management is always a key requirement for melee weapons. The Sledge may need a little more micro-attention than others but many players easily excel with a Sledge as it currently stands.

Here is a key difference in our opinion. I find the Knife and Sledge already balanced against the other melee weapons without a book series. I am not against adding a book series, but for these two current weapons, the book series needs to balance around the current point not just add a bunch of buffs on top of the existing balance point.

 

[Riamus]

True, we are all speculating but I would suggest its educated and informed speculation. For what its worth, the descriptions of many changes and buffs were right there in the dev stream and other vod summaries. (e.g. The Sledge is already OP and now it gets a book series, while assuming there are no nerfs to balance it out)

Many will agree the early game is the funnest. For many the point at which the the player becomes OP and zombie encounters are not scary anymore is where the playthrough generally grows dull. These buffs just hasten that process and make end game trivial.

I have consumed enough 7d2d content, to respect that Dan is a high difficulty level player and overhaul modder, who knows the game under the hood and the balance points more than most, including TFPs.

Sure we can "ask for balancing" after the fact, but thats a tough sell. How did that work out for trader rewards? They were rolled out over lucrative and were nerfed to many players dismay. I would rather it be balanced the first time.

You are right only patience and time will tell...

I would say that all or most weapons can feel OP in the game if you are an expert with them. I hate the sledgehammer and haven't used it after trying it out. It is too slow and stamina is awful for my own preference. Even with the book series, I doubt I would like it or call it OP. For someone who likes what it does, sure, it'll feel OP. Some people call the spear OP. Some think it is weak. Some call the stun baton OP and some call it weak. Some call turrets weak and some strong. Some call sneaking weak and some OP. It is all up to the individual and what they like and are good at.

As far as what part of the game is fun, that is also entirely up to the person. I get out of the early game as soon as I can. I like the late game much more because I want to build large bases and need resources to do so. I also *enjoy* killing zombies without difficulty. It doesn't bother me at all that they are easy. Of course, they are always easy if you aren't on the highest difficulty, and even then they aren't as difficult as many other games. I play this game too relax, not to have to fight hard for everything. For that, I'll choose other games.

As far as asking for balancing, if you ask before you even try it, what you ask isn't necessarily even valid. Devs aren't likely to listen to balancing suggestions from anyone who hasn't tried it yet. Once we get experimental, that is when we tell them about balancing based on experience. That is when they will listen. And they have listened before during experimental as well, so we know they do listen and make changes and adjustments during experimental. That is what experimental is for, finding problems (not just bugs).

Simply put. The game is clunky and feels like it came out in like 2004. The gameplay should update along with it. Does it make it feel modernized? No games Like oblivion have blocking and other moves like power attack.

I'm not saying the game needs to be dying light in terms of movement and abilitys but a few extra things will be nice. Especially once bandits show up because they talked about how they want them to take cover and stuff like that. With how clunky things can feel at times that's going to be a nightmare. Especially with ranged attackers. .


The best thing I can compare 7 days to die to is fallout, Minecraft and few other games. Mainly the game when from a sandbox survival to a RPG with survival elements

Clunky or dated, maybe. Because of not having those abilities? No. As far as bandits go, I really don't see any issue. They will be easy enough to fight. Dodging behind stuff isn't going to make them all that much harder. Shooting at you isn't going to make them all that much harder. Yes, they will be more challenge than zombies. That is good. But they aren't going to turn this game into some AAA shooter.

 

[Javabean867]

- We can only mine coal in the snow biome, but it's an ingredient for the burnt smoothie?

just 1 thing to keep in mind. you get coal from all of the smoldering wood you chop up. i also believe the trees get both wood and coal from those in the burnt biome.

 

[Jost Amman]

As I was saying before...

 

[Javabean867]

I'll end my argument for nerfing the new perks with this question.

If you can become an unkillable god on the hardest of difficulties, then what does that say about the easier difficulties?

Food for thought: On nomad, you take a whopping 60% less damage compared to insane.

Simply put, always buff, never nerf. in this case it sounds like the difficulty modifier for higher difficulties need to be buffed. I was saying previously in PVP i could see a reason for nerfs, but nah **** that poo. If 1 weapon type is too op, then everything else needs buffed.

 

[Kyoji]

Keep in mind that Lathan was level 1 (later level 2) and that he had only one piece of armor for much of the stream. Damage won't be as much by the time you're actually getting to those biomes. Also, you have things you can use to help reduce biome hazard damage that you can use while completing the required challenges. I think those challenges will end up being something you'll be able to complete within a very short time once you're used to it. Similar to how you can complete the initial challenge row in 2-3 minutes without difficulty once you know how it works. The biome challenges will probably take longer than that, but I think it's likely you can still complete them quickly. The storms are going to be something you'll have to just avoid, which was their intention. In the end, though, I'll probably end up disabling both hazards and storms after one playthrough because I think they just unnecessarily limit your freedom to explore.

The badges are a bad visual choice. They should change the icons to something else that looks like protection. The mechanics can remain the same.

I don't know if level matters in regards to biome hazards. The smoothies are a good addition to increase survival depending on how long each last. From Echo's video it seems they either can stack or last for at least 4-5 minutes. Also, keep in mind the smoothie for the Burnt Forest requires coal which is mainly found in the Snow biome so it also depends on how plentiful coal is in the Forest biome.

If you think the biome challenges are something that can be completed in a short amount of time then I question what's point of them in the first place? I don't mind adding challenge to encourage players to progress as intended, I just think the current suggested way of doing it is flawed for the aforementioned reasons. I feel like a big point for me is the general distaste for the Burnt Forest and Wasteland zones. It feels like both could benefit from some more makeover. The Burnt Forest could use some more aesthetic design, something akin to sub-biomes would add wonders to the game's aesthetics. The Wasteland is similar in that it is boring and drab IMHO. Coloring on the tree's and a re-design of the ground (second picture) would do wonders for the Burnt Forest biome.