PC v1.x PvP Open Discussion

Grandpa Minion said:
what we do know for fact at least 17.3% of all accounts have killed someone in this game which means they play pvp... NAPOLEON ACHIEVEMENT.
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Sure, I have 25 player kills. I had 2 from fratricide and Stallionsden and I started a private game and shot each other 25 times. It was the last achievement I needed. :)

EDIT: My mistake, I was thinking it was the 25 kill achievement. In which case, I think @theFlu brings up some important stats. A handful of kills can easily just be "good clean fun" amongst PvE players who have the PvP feature turned on.

 
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Grandpa Minion said:
why is it so hard for pve players to admit that people actually do play pvp in this game from all over the world? Thats the whole problem is even though pvp exist pve players want to act like it doesnt.

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And again, you are replying to something that wasn't said.  I even specifically told you before that no one is saying there aren't PVP players.  So why argue about that?  Yes, there are PVP players.  But they are a minority, and nowhere near what you want to claim.  As was mentioned by theFlu, the achievements for more than one kill is much lower than even that 17.9% (which is now about 19%), and significantly lower than your initial statement that over 50% play, or have tried, PVP.

 
Grandpa Minion said:
what we do know for fact at least 17.3% of all accounts have killed someone in this game which means they play pvp... NAPOLEON ACHIEVEMENT.. that doesn't even include players who haven't killed someone, So yeah once again for people to assume no one plays pvp is just ridiculous.

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Sorry, but you are simply wrong here. We discovered a long time ago that mods using NPC bandits count those as player kills. So I'd bet a lot of those players have just used mods. I know that's how I got some of those achievements. 

And still, wouldn't having friendly fire on and accidentally killing a friend count towards that as well? I know I killed a few buddies accidentally on purpose way back when, but I'm certainly not a PvPer by any means. 

 
Grandpa Minion said:
cracks me up that pve players dont think pvp is alive in this game.. go right now to battlemetrics or gametracker search for yourself that in fact pvp is alive and always has been... the biggest servers with population that are even around is pvp and has been that way for as long as i can remember. The problem is for last 10 years pvp players requests have been pushed to back of the line waiting for simple things to get fixed while pve players request are being met every alpha.  But yeah to say pvp is non existing would be ridiculous and this is where the pimp brothers dropped the ball. Like i said earlier our server alone only over the years have had over 250,000 players join it. Millions oView attachment 33326f people who play 7d2d play pvp, why ignore them?
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I don't know why the FP ignore the PVP community. This game is so much more fun with PVP. 

 
Sgt At Arms said:
I don't know why the FP ignore the PVP community. This game is so much more fun with PVP. 
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honestly, i don't think they ignore the pvp community i think it simply comes down to workforce and prioritys. However... if you take into account whats happend to them over the last few years losing a major coder who worked on rwg and losing a major founding coder over a dispute lawsuit while trying to get 1.0 out than its probably more of case like ive been saying pvp issues get pushed to the end of line.

 
WATCHER said:
pvp has the excitement factor.

nothing but building on looting in pve. get's boring sometimes.

just play minecraft if you don't pvp. lol
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That's odd. I was under the impression there was a healthy Minecraft PvP community.

 
Grandpa Minion said:
honestly, i don't think they ignore the pvp community i think it simply comes down to workforce and prioritys. However... if you take into account whats happend to them over the last few years losing a major coder who worked on rwg and losing a major founding coder over a dispute lawsuit while trying to get 1.0 out than its probably more of case like ive been saying pvp issues get pushed to the end of line.
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Honestly, the game isn't meant to be a large-scale PvP experience. Neither the developer who passed away nor the developer who left TFP worked on PvP elements of the game....ever. So their loss has had zero effect on getting PvP stuff done. Not even the fact that new developers had to be hired and work tasks shifted around had anything to do with it because there wasn't anyone working on your PvP issues that had to stop that work and pick up the slack due to those things happening and not a single new person hired was tasked to the PvP issues.

You're grasping for hope, I can see. But I'm not going to lie to you and try to appease you into false hope. The game is designed for 1-8 players working together to survive and explore the post-apocalyptic world TFP has created. That's it. The fact that it can be modded and stretched to accommodate larger scale player vs player gameplay is coincidental. The fact that it is entertaining and some players' preferred way to use the software is incidental.

TFP has always stated that they would like to develop a PvP mode if they can but the base game is not being worked on for PvP. Issues that come up due to playing the game beyond the scope of its design are on the players to fix and mod themselves. Just as Khaine must fix any issues that arise from his Darkness Falls mod because TFP isn't going to fix it for him, PvP players who are modding the game to play PvP must fix their own issues to the extent that it is possible to do so.

In that sense, TFP most certainly is ignoring the PvP community. PvP issues are at the bottom of any conceivable priority list. If some change is better for the PvE community but would harm the PvP community they are willing to enact that change as we have seen in recent updates. You just posted elsewhere that trader quests are good for PvE but bad for PvP. Take that as typical for  the development philosophy for this game.

I know that it seems so backwards since every other game in the industry prioritizes PvP at the expense of PvE because there is so much money to be made from PvP. But in an infinite universe, infinite iterations are possible and its amazing we've found one in this game. I do believe that near the beginning the devs were tempted by the PvP glitter. Rust, DayZ, Fortnight, PubG....all seemed to whisper, "Abandon your dream Hueninks and cash in on the obvious trend" Sony did it with their zombie survival game. They abandoned the PvE aspect of it and went full steam ahead into King of the Hill.

TFP decided to stick to the dream of what they wanted which was a mix of Walking Dead, Fallout, and Minecraft and creating an environment where friends and family could play together and work together. In all the glut of PvP titles out there this game stands unique.

 
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Roland said:
Issues that come up due to playing the game beyond the scope of its design are on the players to fix and mod themselves.
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There are things coders simply can not fix that have to be done client side.

xray is prob a super big one.

its a simple fix that deals with camera fov and the pimps already have been told how to fix it but haven't while pvp players for years see dumb requests get put through and added every update and yeah i talk to coders all the time and they all tell me the same story..

image.png

 
Maybe I'm just a little archaic or neanderthal in my thinking, but here me out.
I've played PVP, but, it was long before there was a 7 days to die. Ultima online
They split the world into two shards, with a portal, pve and pvp had their own area.
To me that makes sense, when you wanna go build up stores, Trammel when you want to go
gank or get ganked Felucca now i thinks it's called The Forge.

But as PVP progressed it became PVPers Definitively became a specific group and mindset.
They would primarily try to find every glitch, vs basic PVP. If I got swamped by 20 invis
stealth guys hanging around the portal, I'd be ok, but if I didn't start screaming and
##$%^&*((*&^ they got mad, If I killed them they got mad. The missing ingredient was/is
competition. There no longer are any rules of engagement. Which means that alot of people
are playing under the umbrella term of PVP, with the only intent if digital anonymous
bullying.

Examples: That you presented is the xray, and the Murder Death Kill loop. That's not PVP, that
is artificed power, and griefing. I've watched multiple games Built and based around PVP;
the best to me personally is PUBG because of the time limit, controlled areas, disqualification
for dumb $H1^. And most importantly for me is Terrain. It's 3d. I still build my heightmaps from
0 to 187. Take a look I posted one of my maps and a poi list that you can use in Nitrogen. If you
want to test it just take my height map and put it in Nitrogen and run with My biomes are Height
based so is my temperature. It's wasn't specifically built for PVP but with the things I changed
It might be interesting.

There are concrete reasons that I wouldn't want to play PVP on 7days, No rules of engagement, too many
exploits, Flat terrain "just no", No safe vs death zones, No NPC escorts, No grass that is Eye level,
No real environmental Danger, No time limit, No fog, no particle storms lowering viability, No prone or
crawling position. If the ninja dogs, vultures, and ferals were the only ai included and the spawn rate
was consistent then maybe i'd find it desirable. But as is it's just forcing a 1 meter square peg into
a sphincter sized hole. To me it just doesn't fit, or isn't suited for it.

It would take a serious friggin mod overhaul, and penal rule changes, for me to even begin to think the
acronym PVP and 7days at the same time. That's why I post that it's a PVE game platform, Not trying to
belittle or berate that form of competitive gameplay, but it just doesn't have the solid foundation to
support it correctly. What's funny or ironic is that even the paid players because of the internet and social

media are being outed as exploiters in order to claim the prize. There is no honorability in it anymore.

But that's just an old dog that hasn't learned the new tricks.

4Sheetz

 
Grandpa Minion said:
There are things coders simply can not fix that have to be done client side.

xray is prob a super big one.

its a simple fix that deals with camera fov and the pimps already have been told how to fix it but haven't while pvp players for years see dumb requests get put through and added every update and yeah i talk to coders all the time and they all tell me the same story..

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A few points:

1) My point was not that players should fix things themselves and they are perfectly capable of doing so. My point was that players will have to fix what they can and live with the rest because TFP isn't going to do it unless they see it as a priority fix for the main gameplay: PvE

2) What you call "dumb requests that get through and get updated" are requests that are in alignment with what the devs want to do anyway in furthering their goals. You call them dumb because they don't improve PvP. The devs call them relevant and normal because they improve the part of the game they are focused on (Hint: nonPvP)

3) I'm not sure how workshop support is going to change anything for the "coder" you were talking to. Most modders understand that workshop is an interface thing and that the actual process of modding is going to continue to be the same. Harmony is the mod support tool that has been developed and it isn't going to be abandoned for some new method in Steam Workshop.  Why would point and click user interface screens for choosing and adding existing mods to 7 Days to Die from within Steam suddenly make it possible for your Captain Redacted to fix client side camera positioning code? "Workshop" isn't a magic word that will suddenly make current modding impossibilities all too easy to do in the future.

Maybe your friend has made a bunch of levels for Portal 2 through workshop and thinks that is what modding for 7 Days to Die will be?

 
Grandpa Minion said:
what we do know for fact at least 17.3% of all accounts have killed someone in this game which means they play pvp... NAPOLEON ACHIEVEMENT.. that doesn't even include players who haven't killed someone, So yeah once again for people to assume no one plays pvp is just ridiculous.

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Just FYI, you can get that achievement without killing another player if you're using NPC mods. Killing (human) NPCs apparently counts as killing other players.

That's how I got the "Alexander the Great" achievement, and not only do I not play PvP, I don't even play multiplayer at all.

 
khzmusik said:
That's how I got the "Alexander the Great" achievement
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thanks, pretty sure that conversation started when i agreed with the guy earlier that no one keeps official stats of who and who doesn't play pvp but with 18 million copys of the game sold it is simply ridiculous for anyone to think people don't play pvp in this game. Also over the years the biggest servers that have ever existed in this game multiplayer where pvp... 

To me and many others believe thats where the pimps dropped the ball pushing pvp players to the back of the line.

 
Grandpa Minion said:
thanks, pretty sure that conversation started when i agreed with the guy earlier that no one keeps official stats of who and who doesn't play pvp but with 18 million copys of the game sold it is simply ridiculous for anyone to think people don't play pvp in this game. Also over the years the biggest servers that have ever existed in this game multiplayer where pvp... 

To me and many others believe thats where the pimps dropped the ball pushing pvp players to the back of the line.
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Size of servers is irrelevant.  Of course PVP servers want to push the number of players above what TFP has chosen for the number of players (i.e. only 1-8 players), while PVE will usually stick to that range.  Why?  Because PVP works best with many players rather than few players and PVE works fine regardless how many players there are.  So of course PVP servers will have more players than PVE servers.  That's a given.  But it doesn't in any way show that there are more PVP players than PVE players.  The achievements already clearly show that PVP is a minority.  And many of the people who got those achievements did so without doing PVP... either by killing NPCs with a mod installed or by working out a deal with a friend to kill each other to get the achievements without really playing PVP.  So the percent of players who actually play PVP is even lower than the percent of players who have completed Alexander the Great:

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So 3% of players *might* be PVP players (no one who is actually playing PVP will have under 25 player kills unless they just started playing), except that many of those just killed NPCs or else just did enough kills of another player for the achievement and never actually played PVP.  That means that 3% is probably about 2%.  I do admit that this stat is only Steam and so does not include anyone who has the game from somewhere else, but it's a good indicator of the number of PVP players regardless.  That doesn't mean no one plays PVP.  But it does mean that PVP is clearly not what this game is focused on.  That means any updates that are made to the game are going to focus on PVE and not on PVP.  It's just how things work.  You may want to believe that this is a huge PVP game, but it really isn't.  People can choose to play it that way, and there's nothing wrong with that.  But the devs aren't making the game for PVP players.  They are making it for PVE players.  You will mostly need to use mods to make the game more of a PVP game because it just isn't going to come from the devs at least until after gold, if at all.  They may add a few things here and there to help PVP players out, but those will be few and far between.  It just isn't what they are focused on.  It isn't what you want to hear or apparently even believe, but it's how it is.

And to be clear, no one here is saying that no one plays PVP or that playing PVP is wrong or anything else like that.  But if you start inflating numbers, people will push back.  You won't make people believe you by inflating numbers.  You also won't get anyone to really support you by doing so.  Instead of making false claims of PVP being more popular than PVE (your initial statement of over 50% playing PVP, which is clearly nowhere close to the truth), just say that you know PVP players are a minority in this game, but that you would still like to have ____ added/changed in the game to help them out.  It may not happen, or might not happen right away, because it will certainly be a low priority to them since PVE is the priority for them with this game, but at least people might be willing to agree with you that it's worth adding rather than having a lot of push back about inflated numbers and false or misleading information, which basically makes people forget what you want in the first place.

 
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4sheetzngeegles said:
There are concrete reasons that I wouldn't want to play PVP on 7days
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Exactly just some of the things you mentioned, that is part of my complaint about pvp players getting ignored...... player issues always getting pushed to the back of the line.... some of the major issues have been reported for years and years and can only be fixed by the pimps especially the ones that have to be fixed client side. No coder or modder well ever be able to fix these issues without workshop 

 
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Grandpa Minion said:
To me and many others believe thats where the pimps dropped the ball pushing pvp players to the back of the line.
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See, this is more of the "PvP silent majority" silliness.

No one "pushed you to the back of the line". You weren't even in the line at the beginning and then you joined at the back of the line in later development. You will always be at the back of the line because the focus of the game is not PvP.

And it isn't like the devs haven't been entirely open about this either.  They have clearly stated numerous times over the years that they will not focus on developing for PvP. They have said that once they game is close to finished, or shortly after, that they may look into some balancing for PvP or maybe do it as a separate game mode/DLC.

Grandpa Minion said:
Exactly just some of the things you mentioned, that is part of my complaint about pvp players getting ignored.
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They aren't "ignoring" you, so much as they don't have plans to cater to what you want currently. And again, it isn't like they haven't been open about this for years. You just pretend that they aren't to push your rhetoric.

Grandpa Minion said:
No coder or modder well ever be able to fix these issues without workshop 
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This statement is false.  Workshop isn't going to manically change the way modding works so that modders will have access to things they don't have access to now.  I am really not sure why you are so intent on persisting with this lie after being corrected on it. Unless it is again just shoveling more misinformation in some misguided attempt to promote your cause.

Workshop is just a delivery tool. The only thing that will change is how mods are packaged for it.

 
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