PC Underground Threats & More
- Thread starter Crater Creator
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I don't like this idea because it just doesn't make logical sense to me. Why would below ground be radioactive? There's no "realistic" explanation for it.
Honestly, I think if you just make it so that you need to provide ventilation and maybe allow water to fill up underground spaces during a rainstorm, that would be enough to force some real engineering to go into underground spaces of any significance. Add unstable rock to the mix that requires shoring up and that underground base becomes much less "easy", and more of something where you work for safety.
Can't we just keep it to actual underground enviromental hazards..?
A rainstorm won't make a mine get submerged in water, impart because stone, impart because by the time it gets to the stone layer the soil above would have absorbed most of it, not to mention the natural caves, above ground rivers, streams, lakes all of which acts as water storages.
I'd be all for underground caves, lava pits, canyons and ravines even underground lakes.. But I'd prefer we stuck to such ways of "harassing" people below ground as to make it a challenge.
Zombies digging/causing cave-ins, water submerging my shizzle and whatnot is honestly taking it too far for a game and would make it too much of a hassle for most people to even bother and that is not the point in a game.. The point is to get people to play x/y/z aspect of a game and have fun whilst doing it. There's already physics which makes you think proper and build supports to prevent cave-ins, if lava, underground caves etc were added so you had to think about how you dug down, around and about it would provide an excellent challenge for the Miners (and it would make sense).
However, in order to add these the Pimps would have to redo the Map Generator and that would take a fair bit of resources (read: money), time and probably a heck of a lot of testing.. I'm not sure it would be high on the Pimps list of things to get done (or should be).
A rainstorm won't make a mine get submerged in water, impart because stone, impart because by the time it gets to the stone layer the soil above would have absorbed most of it, not to mention the natural caves, above ground rivers, streams, lakes all of which acts as water storages.
I'd be all for underground caves, lava pits, canyons and ravines even underground lakes.. But I'd prefer we stuck to such ways of "harassing" people below ground as to make it a challenge.
Zombies digging/causing cave-ins, water submerging my shizzle and whatnot is honestly taking it too far for a game and would make it too much of a hassle for most people to even bother and that is not the point in a game.. The point is to get people to play x/y/z aspect of a game and have fun whilst doing it. There's already physics which makes you think proper and build supports to prevent cave-ins, if lava, underground caves etc were added so you had to think about how you dug down, around and about it would provide an excellent challenge for the Miners (and it would make sense).
However, in order to add these the Pimps would have to redo the Map Generator and that would take a fair bit of resources (read: money), time and probably a heck of a lot of testing.. I'm not sure it would be high on the Pimps list of things to get done (or should be).
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Maharin
Well-known member
If walking/running up to the edge of a cliff (underground or above ground) would have a chance to slip past the edge that could add a great deal of danger right there. Have things like material types (sand, dirt, etc.), how slippery it is (water, oil, even grass), and maybe even have the player weight play into how easily the edge crumbles. Having more dirt and sand mixed in with rock would also add to the danger.
I agree with WiiTee in general. Just having more pockets of gravel to fall on you (and maybe do significant damage like it used to do) is a decent enough challenge for mining. Lava would be great even though it's unlikely that we would just find lava a few meters below the surface (which is probably why it hasn't been put in the game). Someone earlier pointed out that we could have more rare metals further down which would increase the motivation to dig deep, and have some more extreme dangers down there closer to bedrock.
Minandreas
New member
Interesting little poll. Demonstrates why this topic is perpetually on the front page of the forums. Very clear division.
I'd be for digging zombies if structural integrity wasn't a thing. I'd even welcome them to shake up those moments I'm down there. Add a little excitement while mining. But the moment the big ass fortress I've been painstakingly building has an entire wall collapse because some asshat zombie decided to dig under its supports, I would lose my ♥♥♥♥. I'd almost prefer it if there were digging zombies, but somehow they didn't cause structural integrity to kick in or something. Wouldn't be realistic in the slightest, but then I could have my cake and eat it too so to speak. But I doubt that is even possible in the code, and some people really love their untarnished realism.
I guess that partially explains why having all sorts of underground action in minecraft works so well... No SI worries.
So if I have to choose, I'd rather not have digging zombies than have my work spontaneously ruined from time to time.
Though that makes me think of a fun way to bring a little diversity to POI spawn locations... Have them properly update based on structural integrity when they are generated. Ones that happen to have a cave running underneath them would have sections of them collapsed. Would have the double bonus of adding variety to POIs, and giving players a hint to cavern locations without just having to randomly dig or comb the surface for cave entrances.
Final thought: I think some people may be a little too focused on "It should take effort to live underground" and aren't really thinking through what kind of effort belongs in a video game. Some of the ideas I see kicking around amount to requiring constant upkeep and maintenance to your structure underground to keep it functional. (Hell, digging zombies will amount to that, having to constantly fill in their holes) Is that actually going to be fun to anyone? Personally, that would just remove the underground from the game entirely for me. Zombies as a threat are exciting. That's effort I want in a game. Having to explore for things is entertaining. That's effort I want in a game. But if I wanted to spend my time filling holes with dirt or doing general repetitive maintenance tasks I'd go do something productive IRL. Like wash the dishes. That's not why I play a video game. :biggrin-new: But then again, Korean MMOs are a thing... so I suppose some people really do enjoy a grindy repetitive task... fair enough I guess... but it's definitely not for me.
I'd be for digging zombies if structural integrity wasn't a thing. I'd even welcome them to shake up those moments I'm down there. Add a little excitement while mining. But the moment the big ass fortress I've been painstakingly building has an entire wall collapse because some asshat zombie decided to dig under its supports, I would lose my ♥♥♥♥. I'd almost prefer it if there were digging zombies, but somehow they didn't cause structural integrity to kick in or something. Wouldn't be realistic in the slightest, but then I could have my cake and eat it too so to speak. But I doubt that is even possible in the code, and some people really love their untarnished realism.
I guess that partially explains why having all sorts of underground action in minecraft works so well... No SI worries.
So if I have to choose, I'd rather not have digging zombies than have my work spontaneously ruined from time to time.
Though that makes me think of a fun way to bring a little diversity to POI spawn locations... Have them properly update based on structural integrity when they are generated. Ones that happen to have a cave running underneath them would have sections of them collapsed. Would have the double bonus of adding variety to POIs, and giving players a hint to cavern locations without just having to randomly dig or comb the surface for cave entrances.
Final thought: I think some people may be a little too focused on "It should take effort to live underground" and aren't really thinking through what kind of effort belongs in a video game. Some of the ideas I see kicking around amount to requiring constant upkeep and maintenance to your structure underground to keep it functional. (Hell, digging zombies will amount to that, having to constantly fill in their holes) Is that actually going to be fun to anyone? Personally, that would just remove the underground from the game entirely for me. Zombies as a threat are exciting. That's effort I want in a game. Having to explore for things is entertaining. That's effort I want in a game. But if I wanted to spend my time filling holes with dirt or doing general repetitive maintenance tasks I'd go do something productive IRL. Like wash the dishes. That's not why I play a video game. :biggrin-new: But then again, Korean MMOs are a thing... so I suppose some people really do enjoy a grindy repetitive task... fair enough I guess... but it's definitely not for me.
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Roland
Community Moderator
Mostly what I want are challenges to overcome as part of my progression as a survivor. Crafting an air filtration device to give an area of effect where you can breathe normally underground is great. Player starts mining down and reaches a point where they can't go further but can craft an item that grants them the power to go deeper. That is what I think of as fun. No free pass all the way to bedrock on day three. Yes, it takes effort to get down there with your first iron pickaxe but just grindy repetitive effort and this game is about crafting stuff to help you and improve quality of life. Do I want to have to daily fill that air filtration device with gas? Hell no. Maybe once a week or just never at all. Let modders take maintenance to the nth degree for those who like that but a once and done quest like craft a filter, wear a gasmask, place an AC compressor and ducts, is what I'm feeling myself.
As for digging zombies, I want that because it is a survival against zombies game and I want them in every biome I visit. For those who want to build a nice base and have it not be threatened by zombies then it is very simple: Don't go down there on blood moon night. That is the only night when any diggers would be able to gps to you. Stay underground 6 out of every 7 days and have peace and then go somewhere else on the one night. Remember that zombies will not attack blocks (aka dig) unless they are in attack mode and if you are deep underground and they are not influenced by a blood moon they will never go into attack mode.
I also want open caverns underground, water-filled caverns, zombie-filled caverns, and noxious fumes-filled caverns. Nobody should be able to just dig down vertically without taking the risk of getting themselves into deep doo-doo. It is just too predictably safe right now.
Crater Creator
Community Moderator
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you play the game in more capacities than many players. :rockon:
But to be fair, the question wasn't, "What's the one way to win the game?" It was what you typically do in Alpha 16. In other words, which of the many playstyles the game offers is your favorite. If the poll was for determining correctness, it wouldn't include a statement like "Underground gameplay should be changed via mods, while the 'vanilla' game stays the same." That's just not feasible, as modders know, but I was curious how many people think that way.
As it turns out, the top choices are "I go underground to mine, but I don't use it as a place to stay or keep things." at 43% and "My day-to-day base is underground, but I'm on the surface for the Blood Moon." at 37%. That suggests to me that, at the least, there's widespread recognition that underground isn't the place to be during the Blood Moon.
This a can live with, I already do this. The problem with diggers daily is that you find them or defend against them when you are both underground. They would swish chess your walls. You either put them back up and ignore the gaps behind your walls. Or spend a ton of time filling it with 400 up destroyed stone filler.
But having them only on bloodmoon hordes would add a huge challege. If they are there, they need to come up or something to deal with them. Giant mole traps maybe?
Morloc
Arch Necromancer
Option A - Just have "realistic" diggers that tunneled down into your base, but didn't destroy dirt/gravel/clay blocks, but just move through them. A zombie digging down to you isn't going to excavate...he's going to claw his way mindlessly toward you....unconcerned when the dirt seals up behind him.
Option B - I'd accept Swiss-Cheesing a bit more if a single stupid cheerleader couldn't get underground near my base with no realistic way for me to get to her. I hear here moaning and gibbering....I hear rock breaking....and she winds around taking out block after block. This isn't realistic at all....and it's just too over the top to say it's for game balance....however!!....the SIMPLE solution is just to have the act of digging, be it through the ground, or a steel wall, cost the zombie hit points. Whether it's the wearing down of claws and limbs, or just the expenditure of a zombie's last calories driving its undead metabolism, a zombie should only dig so far and die. SURE...~another~ zombie might come down the same tunnel and continue toward you....but at least it's not just one little z worming around your base on GPS doing silly amounts of excavating.
One of those two choices would be groovy.
-Morloc
Minandreas
New member
Totally with you on the rest of your post. Even in Minecraft everyone knows that rule #1 is never dig straight down. =P
As for the digger zombies I should definitely clarify that I'm being a bit of a pessimist with regards to what we've seen thusfar from the zombies AI. I don't ever go underground on blood moon nights. I only go down to mine. I stay above ground as much as possible as a personal rule. The pessimism comes in in that I doubt that will prevent diggers from spawning and jacking up my base. I just picture a screamer spawning one, and it digging under my wall supports while I'm just trying to go about building my base in broad daylight. Then my wall collapses. And I throw something.
I know AI is getting some work in A17. Which I'm THRILLED about. But for now at least, I don't trust the AI with a digging zombie. At all. It may very well screw surface dwellers like myself even worse than people underground. You get a surprise zombie underground. Big deal. I have my freaking base collapse. I'd argue that's much worse...
Roland
Community Moderator
Well the new pathing only allows zombies to dig when
A) They are in attack mode and
B) They detect you right below them.
Building your topside base in the day with a screamer bringing in a horde will not result in any diggers unless YOU go underground into your basement.
Even zombies that go down into tunnels and are underground already will not dig or destroy blocks horizontally if they are not in attack mode. When the timer counts down and they stop aggroing, they will stand idly or wander always pathing around obstacles and not breaking blocks. That is the intention and if it gets bugged then faatal will be working to fix such things.