PC Underground Debate #589

I think once NPC and quests are fleshed out that underground players by their own choice will miss out on a lot of content. A wandering trader comes by and they'll miss it. A rare animal that you need for a quest...they won't hear it. A woman comes by offering a rare book for someone who can find her lost dog?? The underground playstyle is a choice that avoids danger and will also avoid opportunity.

A point to ponder - should you still have a compass and clock when underground? I presume we're divining those things from the sun and stars which are not visible underground.

 
A point to ponder - should you still have a compass and clock when underground? I presume we're divining those things from the sun and stars which are not visible underground.
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compass divining from the sun and stars? Please use wikipedia more often.

 
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Btw none asked about maggots? It's ok, understandable, was not insulted or anything, since you can't possibly know that it's the best underground suggestion. Don't worry, I'll explain anyway.

"Maggot infestation" - not like separate entities or a new enemy. No collision boxes or anything, no AI, nothing really. These gifs are the closest thing I found on the internet to describe what I am talking about. The search was not pleasant.

Technically, TFP only have to draw and animate a static picture on a block, fade them in and out or change the "gif", as the block's infestation levels diminish or increase, and "write a script" about how they will be "spreading" from block to block. Imagine a tunnel/cave full with these "gifs" on each block on the walls/ground/ceiling of the cave. "Make the game horror again" (and less scooby doo). Even a shoddy fade-in on a newly infested block would imo look decent in game.

Players will naturally start getting infested as long as they walk on those blocks, stand below them (particle system falling maggots) etc. At first stage the infestation will be reversible with time with some dellusions or those A1 sounds, at 2nd blah blah, bleeding whatever, you will be able to see animated maggots that will be eating into your hands, at 3rd death (which is rewarded in this game but that is a whine for another time). A machine could repel them in a range etc. Certain blocks could be maggot hives that the player will have to deal with with various means. When players destroy infested blocks maggots spill on the player or nearby blocks worsening the spread etc. There is a lot of room for dynamic elements here. And a piece of cake to implement afaik.

 
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Btw none asked about maggots? It's ok, understandable, was not insulted or anything, since you can't possibly know that it's the best underground suggestion. Don't worry, I'll explain anyway.
"Maggot infestation" - not like separate entities or a new enemy. No collision boxes or anything, no AI, nothing really. These gifs are the closest thing I found on the internet to describe what I am talking about. The search was not pleasant.

Technically, TFP only have to draw and animate a static picture on a block, fade them in and out or change the "gif", as the block's infestation levels diminish or increase, and "write a script" about how they will be "spreading" from block to block. Imagine a tunnel/cave full with these "gifs" on each block on the walls/ground/ceiling of the cave. "Make the game horror again" (and less scooby doo). Even a shoddy fade-in on a newly infested block would imo look decent in game.

Players will naturally start getting infested as long as they walk on those blocks, stand below them (particle system falling maggots) etc. At first stage the infestation will be reversible with time with some dellusions or those A1 sounds, at 2nd blah blah, bleeding whatever, you will be able to see animated maggots that will be eating into your hands, at 3rd death (which is rewarded in this game but that is a whine for another time). A machine could repel them in a range etc. Certain blocks could be maggot hives that the player will have to deal with with various means. When players destroy infested blocks maggots spill on the player or nearby blocks worsening the spread etc. There is a lot of room for dynamic elements here. And a piece of cake to implement afaik.
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That could be the game start: wake up in a dumpster full of old junk and maggots.

The first thing to learn is how to use the use-key to remove them, while they eat away your life.

 
A machine could repel them in a range etc. Certain blocks could be maggot hives that the player will have to deal with with various means. When players destroy infested blocks maggots spill on the player or nearby blocks worsening the spread etc. There is a lot of room for dynamic elements here. And a piece of cake to implement afaik.
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A possible variation: Only blocks with at least one adjacent air block can be infected. That makes sure the maggots are always reachable so you can remove them with an insecticide spray gun.

 
That could be the game start: wake up in a dumpster full of old junk and maggots.The first thing to learn is how to use the use-key to remove them, while they eat away your life.
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Whack-a-maggot minigame?

A possible variation: Only blocks with at least one adjacent air block can be infected. That makes sure the maggots are always reachable so you can remove them with an insecticide spray gun.
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That would be the case one way or another because there is no use for maggots if the player cannot see them (maybe in a gardening simulation). About the spray gun... not sure if serious, but I do think it's actually better than a static machine, as long as the player doesn't have to do it too often or spray each single block with it.

Damn, I can't find a picture on the internet than depicts approximately how an infested cave should look like and someone can only bear to see these many maggots within a day (jesus I didn't type "maggots eating a live dog/human" why are you doing this to me google).

 
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That would be the case one way or another because there is no use for maggots if the player cannot see them (maybe in a gardening simulation). About the spray gun... not sure if serious, but I do think it's actually better than a static machine, as long as the player doesn't have to do it too often or spray each single block with it.
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Well, theoretically the infection could spread through unseen blocks, and in a voxel game no block is really unreachable. So I didn't think it self-evident.

The spray gun was serious. Would work similar to painting. And yes, each single block. The feature has to be used sparingly anyway, any horror dulls if you overuse it.

 
Well, theoretically the infection could spread through unseen blocks, and in a voxel game no block is really unreachable. So I didn't think it self-evident.
The spray gun was serious. Would work similar to painting. And yes, each single block. The feature has to be used sparingly anyway, any horror dulls if you overuse it.
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Well, depends if there is any practicality to it spreading to unseen blocks. I was imagining a spray gun that has a certain radius and its effects last for a certain amount of time on the surrounding blocks, but with a very "costly" refillable liquid, which you would have to synthesize at the chemical station with rare materials. A combination of both might be prudent with the static machine also being more costly.

Maggots ain't caring about any block detections, ain't caring about no silly chunk loading, ain't caring about no collisions, pathing or clipping, just require an animated picture, will make it hard to impossible to use the "double base" exploit to fool the game's spawn system, add horror back to the game, can be dynamic af in a myriad of ways and can even be used on the surface in some occasions. I think they are a perfect fit.

 
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can be dynamic af in a myriad of ways and can even be used on the surface in some occasions. I think they are a perfect fit.
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Yes, maggots will spread to a building if the entry point to underground is in one. An easy way to ensure that it doesn't spread on the surface is that no block can be infected if vertically upwards there are only air blocks.

 
@Devs
I had an idea today you might find useful in regards to underground bases and address it in the future.

I understand the idea of the underground base is really appealing to players because of the safety it can provide, and that the core issue is how can you allow people to utilize this option but with a fair trade off. Not only that, but how can you make the trade off fit the core values of the game and the genre it wants to emulate?

My suggestion will allow for this option still, but make it much more difficult to do in the early game, and limit the amount of time players can spend underground in a fun and fluffy sort of way.

Make being underground limit the amount of oxygen available, and after reaching a certain depth there would be no oxygen. You can use mechanics similar to what water blocks use, but make them a hidden block that only occupies open spaces below the starting surface area. If you dig a large open pit you should be fine, with air being able to flow into it, however even then at a certain depth the air wouldn't penetrate.

So how do you dig underground bases? Air pumps.

You will need power, and air pumps pushing air underground for you to survive while you are down there. Animals will need to be included in this, and should be fairly easy to do an air quality check if they are underground to see if they are in danger, zombies however would be immune (as expected). Plants should be able to produce a small amount of oxygen, and underground growing an option using lights (but at a slower speed, maybe even cap their development to a tier or two lower than outside growth).

Add a pollution mechanic from generators that use gas, this way you won't want to be running them in an area the air isn't being pumped.

If you combine this with a water collection / hydration overhaul, and lingering hordes that hang out near the entrances of underground bases (both of these I already discussed earlier in this thread), I honestly think you can make it a viable and immersive option that will provide for some fun game play mechanics that fit the concept of this game better than having zombies that can dig.

I would love for some feedback and input from everyone, devs feel free to ignore me if you so choose (it is your game after all) and I will gladly not feel offended =)
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If something MUST be done about underground bases, I really do prefer this approach as opposed to tunneling zombies or underground monster spawns. Either of those options are extremely unfair to bunker type bases as there isn't a way to see them coming like there is above ground and little defense until they reach your base and start wrecking your stuff.

 
If something MUST be done about underground bases, I really do prefer this approach as opposed to tunneling zombies or underground monster spawns. Either of those options are extremely unfair to bunker type bases as there isn't a way to see them coming like there is above ground and little defense until they reach your base and start wrecking your stuff.
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At the moment it seems to be implemented so that zombies can't sense you if you are deep enough, except on horde nights. And zombies that can't sense you, don't dig.

So apart from not staying in your main base on horde night you probably have to change nothing, nada, not a thing. How is that extremely unfair?

 
I want fun threats like zombies underground. I dont want boring micromanagement of air or other things.
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This. Otherwise it is not "survival horde", since if you choose underground, it is barely survival and it is not a horde.

 
I want fun threats like zombies underground. I dont want boring micromanagement of air or other things.
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I want fun threats like micromanagement of air or other things. I don't want boring combat all the time - I get plenty of that up on the surface!

-A

PS - The implementation of air quality doesn't have to be done in a micromanagement manner. Think of the generator and wiring setup...

 
I want fun threats like micromanagement of air or other things. I don't want boring combat all the time - I get plenty of that up on the surface!
-A

PS - The implementation of air quality doesn't have to be done in a micromanagement manner. Think of the generator and wiring setup...
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Hence the problem with using air quality like that as a "threat." Once you figure out how to do it it's not a threat. It's simply a building design step just like making sure your lower floors can support what you put on the upper floors. At the very least there need to be things that can periodically go wrong with it or it must be vulnerable(and attractive) to attacks or something like that -- or else it fails the "no [easy] completely safe space" test.

Bringing enemies to the base seems the most obvious(but clearly not the only) solution, but how best to do it? If they dig you have to choose between leaving holes and tunnels everywhere or having them "replace" the dirt behind them and effectively phase through the ground. But if they just come straight to you they could start attacking your base directly from the earth and you wouldn't be able to defend it until after they break through(unless you leave an open area around your walls to fight them). If they spawn in the tunnels you already use people are worried it would be immersion breaking because how would they get past the sealed entrance to your tunnel... but that's not a real issue for the devs as zombies already do that on the surface if you build your base too big. A bigger issue might be how easily you could funnel them into deathtraps by moderately clever design of your tunnel system.

 
I want fun threats like zombies underground. I dont want boring micromanagement of air or other things.
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Agree 100%

- - - Updated - - -

I want fun threats like micromanagement of air or other things. I don't want boring combat all the time - I get plenty of that up on the surface!
-A

PS - The implementation of air quality doesn't have to be done in a micromanagement manner. Think of the generator and wiring setup...
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I get your point but I think that most players would consider that a chore, not something fun...

 
Thanks for sharing! I like watching 7 days to die's Let's Plays, and yours is rather cool, keep on going!!!! :smile-new: :smile-new: :smile-new:
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Hello!

Hope you like it!

Meanwhile, this weekend Episodes:

[video=youtube_share;o49QnvWQCVs]

Camoes Gamer

 
I get your point but I think that most players would consider that a chore, not something fun...
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By that definition almost everything in 7D2D can be considered a chore. Managing your food intake, finding shelter, dungeon crawling for 101 times in A17... Boring, chore, chore .. :smile-new:

The issue with 7D2D over the past alpha releases is that complexity ( in o.a crafting ) got more and more removed to the point that people now power level so fast, they face no content. This is how we now ended up with Dungeons, Zombie bosses and "treasures", to reintroduce a delay in people there leveling ( and forcing them to explorer. E.D: i dislike forced exploring ).

If you want to live underground in the relative safety, then you need to do some effort. Is that so hard for people? I think not...

Build a generator on top, put piping down, maintain fuel. How is that any difference then maintaining electricity based traps? Generator - Wiring - maintain fuel. It also opens up the possibility for future underwater bases... Its not like the air mechanics do not exist in the game, see water.

I like micromanagement but 7D2D has more and more become a combat focused game where micro management has been way too much removed. It also adds a level of realism back to the game again. No more deep mining for all the ores without getting some basic mining up.

 
Underground base final solution

This thread again... yay.

People constantly complain about underground being an exploit. Solutions I've seen are well meaning but impractical. I have a simple AF solution. (TLDR, its at the bottom.)

Oxygen the deeper you go. - Seems plausibly, but if you already didn't know it doesn't "fix" the "problem". You can be completely immune to any horde by digging 4 blocks deep and putting a block over your head. They can't path to you. Not to mention oxygen will be stupid hard to code in.

Zombies spawn underground - Doesn't seem plausibly. Why are Z's spawning underground? How did they get there. What is the coding for this. Seems silly.

Make mining harder - maybe, but the entire game will need to be re balanced, plus it doesn't fix the fact you only need to dig 4 blocks deep to be completely safe.

The fact is, if you're smart, you're almost completely safe in a prebuilt baring blood moons and late game. Destroy stairs/ladders + jump to get in. It's that easy.

Personally, I like playing underground. All my stuff is underground, my forges are underground, but my defense is up top. I fight whatever comes and get the sweet loot. I would venture to say this is how most people play if they do anything underground. Any solution needs to be simple enough for the devs to code and impactful enough to be a significant deterrent to hide from bloodmoons.

My simple AF solution: Z's can dig during a bloodmoon if you are more than 2 blocks below them. Z's which have dug during a bloodmoon die on first light.

This means unless you want your surroundings to become swiss cheese, you have to fight the horde or your bunker needs to be an actual bunker, even from the top where it will not be immune to taking normal damage. This incentivizes the player base to not be "immune" and if they want to play underground during a blood moon, their bunker has to be strong enough to survive a blood moon.

Best of all, make it an option in the settings. Zombies can dig during a bloodmoon [Yes]/[No] If its not well received, the players don't have to do it.

 
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