PC Underground bases - what's the status of making them vulnerable to zombies?

[Kurogo]

The point though that some people are trying to make is that currently underground is, more or less, "boring" because it is so risk free.
I'm all for a "live and let live" sort of policy, and I don't have any issue with someone who wants to build an underground base so they can skip the Horde, but I also think it would be nice to have some threat, some interest, some cost to being down there, which the game currently lacks.

My point though, is that it's boring because they are making the decision to avoid the zombies. Should we make teleporting zombies because a sea of log spikes makes topside boring or a wide enough moat keeps them at bay? Even despite that these are actions the player chose to do? That entrance example would be much more interesting if it was only 10 blocks deep...

 

[themirror]

What? I never even remotely said this. I think there is some language barrier working here. The Tower of Babel isn't a myth it seems.

I never suggested that you is trying to influence ppl how to play and you assume that. Babel tower really isn't a myth. Same as text interpretation.

So, tell me. What is the real problem about the moles? Why people is upset all the time for their way to play the game?

99% of the people complaining on this forum about the underground want a solution to take the moles out of their holes, not to add new challenges to the game on underground. They do not want challenges on underground, they want a Mole Zombie to get the mole players on 7th horde.

 

[meganoth]

My point though, is that it's boring because they are making the decision to avoid the zombies. Should we make teleporting zombies because a sea of log spikes makes topside boring or a wide enough moat keeps them at bay? Even despite that these are actions the player chose to do? That entrance example would be much more interesting if it was only 10 blocks deep...

If the game gives us easy access to a sea of log spikes, then yes, teleporting zombies might be a solution to pick up the pace in the later game. Or the game makes placing a sea of log spikes more difficult, but I don't see how this could be done in a game-compatible way.

I think your idea of leaving the top of mine shafts open isn't really so far fetched, I might actually do this some time. The only thing is it would be like shooting yourself in the foot because you like to be in a shooting. The game should provide the dangerous and surprising elements for the player, not the player.

But the best argument for having a dangerous underground in the game is that whatever is put there as danger can be easily turned off again by options (even as default) or mods. But without the ground work by TFP to add (for example) zombie moles or other dangers it is VERY difficult to impossible to add those dangers by modders alone.

 

[meganoth]

I never suggested that you is trying to influence ppl how to play and you assume that. Babel tower really isn't a myth. Same as text interpretation.
So, tell me. What is the real problem about the moles? Why people is upset all the time for their way to play the game?

99% of the people complaining on this forum about the underground want a solution to take the moles out of their holes, not to add new challenges to the game on underground. They do not want challenges on underground, they want a Mole Zombie to get the mole players on 7th horde.

moles == players who stay mostly underground, right? Ok, I think I understand this post of yours a lot better. You say 99% of the people discussing here want not challenges but drive other players aka moles out.

Well, 99% is clearly wrong, on the last page of this thread I see OzHawkeye, Roland and me on the side of wanting dangers underground and all made it clear that they are in the 1% category. You might have a hard time finding posters in the other group at all, but probably that will be players on PvP multiplayer servers who actually might have a well-founded interest in what other players ON THEIR SERVER can do. They still don't want to tell YOU how to play the game.

 

[Kurogo]

If the game gives us easy access to a sea of log spikes, then yes, teleporting zombies might be a solution to pick up the pace in the later game. Or the game makes placing a sea of log spikes more difficult, but I don't see how this could be done in a game-compatible way.
I think your idea of leaving the top of mine shafts open isn't really so far fetched, I might actually do this some time. The only thing is it would be like shooting yourself in the foot because you like to be in a shooting. The game should provide the dangerous and surprising elements for the player, not the player.

But the best argument for having a dangerous underground in the game is that whatever is put there as danger can be easily turned off again by options (even as default) or mods. But without the ground work by TFP to add (for example) zombie moles or other dangers it is VERY difficult to impossible to add those dangers by modders alone.

You don't necessarily have to leave it open. My mine entrances are usually near where I'm mining (top down on gravel and all that). When I hear zombies milling around, it's time to deal with them before they dig their way in/break the door down. It's not so much shooting myself in the foot, but I choose to not avoid the zombies, and that's the experience I get.

 

[meganoth]

You don't necessarily have to leave it open. My mine entrances are usually near where I'm mining (top down on gravel and all that). When I hear zombies milling around, it's time to deal with them before they dig their way in/break the door down. It's not so much shooting myself in the foot, but I choose to not avoid the zombies, and that's the experience I get.

Well, but that's the rub, they simply don't dig their way in. I would have to especially search for a hill and dig down from the top of it to make sure zombies could reach and surprise me there by digging.

In a single player game I once made a wide vertical open shaft in the wasteland instead of a one-block hole to the botttom (the latter being what we use in our co-op MP game). On a few occasions zombies would actually "rain" down on me and I had to deal with them. But it was a different sort of mining, not a maze of access tunnels that also provide a claustrophobic feel and a feeling of really being underground. Such a shaft would be horribly bad if I were looking for ore veins, I just used it to get stones for cobblestone.

As an afterthought, by leaving it open and starting horizontal tunnels from there I could look for ore veins and still get a few zombies down there, at least as long as my tunnels are not too far in. It still would feel like a special design just to invite zombies down there.

Back to your point: Running out of the mine to meet the zombies because you hear them above is good and well, but it isn't a danger you face underground. You go up, deal with them in open space or from the safety of your base like you do for every wandering horde. While down in the mine you still don't need to do any safety measures or look for signs of dangers.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Problem is, how you going to get the zombies to spawn inside a terrain block?

If not, then you're down to having them spawn at the nearest free block (wherever that could be!) and tunnel/dug their way there, or alternately, have them violate normal spawning rules (including the bed), to spawn inside a base or tunnel.

 

[Kurogo]

Well, but that's the rub, they simply don't dig their way in. I would have to especially search for a hill and dig down from the top of it to make sure zombies could reach and surprise me there by digging.
In a single player game I once made a wide vertical open shaft in the wasteland instead of a one-block hole to the botttom (the latter being what we use in our co-op MP game). On a few occasions zombies would actually "rain" down on me and I had to deal with them. But it was a different sort of mining, not a maze of access tunnels that also provide a claustrophobic feel and a feeling of really being underground. Such a shaft would be horribly bad if I were looking for ore veins, I just used it to get stones for cobblestone.

As an afterthought, by leaving it open and starting horizontal tunnels from there I could look for ore veins and still get a few zombies down there, at least as long as my tunnels are not too far in. It still would feel like a special design just to invite zombies down there.

Back to your point: Running out of the mine to meet the zombies because you hear them above is good and well, but it isn't a danger you face underground. You go up, deal with them in open space or from the safety of your base like you do for every wandering horde. While down in the mine you still don't need to do any safety measures or look for signs of dangers.

That's what I'm saying is the danger. They can get to me and are trying to by the time I'm back topside. It's the same level of danger as any above ground base, yet noone here has tried to claim that being above ground is inherently boring and zombie free just because we can build walls. Can living underground be boring and zombie free? Yes, but only if you choose to make it that way. In that case, the drawback rightfully fits the playstyle: it's boring. Does the game need to be changed so that those who want threats when living underground can be less bored? IMO, no. Playstyles need changed, it's their own actions that lead to their boredom.

Now, what Roland was talking about is a different subject. It's not so much about the already established underground bases, but the challenges one might find while exploring (through digging) underground. Those would be an interesting addition to the game.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

sigh. EVERYONE missed putting in the zombie quote: "Braaaaiinnnsss"

No brains required really to walk up stairs. Down takes some coordination, and they fail there in amusing ways.

Doors, walls, they bash, not try to open.

Attack me? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I shoot them in the back and they keep going THE OTHER WAY. Brainless.

Smell isn't brains. Hunger perhaps.

They do attack each other, well, hit each other.

Try to bash through the large stones on the surface instead of go around.

The blood moon would be more of an instinctual thing.

Now, if they start opening unlocked doors and the like, that would be dangerous.

(yes, there really is only so much you can do with the AI without getting bogged down in an insane number of rules,

so much that it would be a serious performance hit)

I don't want them tunneling straight down, but they will and do tunnel sideways. That's fine.

I go to bedrock only because I want the goodies. I have to protect the entrances, and watch out for where they could come in from the sides in distant locations.

Only 5 blocks down, well, now we're talking. They can't see you, they may be able to smell you.

Heat map is the entire chunk, which is rather large, and does indeed go to bedrock.

(which is why my forges etc are at least 3 chunks away from the entrance, and under a looted building)

I don't see an elegant way to have zombies dig down, unlike spider zombies (which you can ignore just by putting ledges, or even wooden arrow slits up around the roof)

Hmm, have them bash on a hatch the way they do a door? That might be doable. Have to do the Maxwell Smart Door System to slow them down, but that would actually make sense.

Ground type blocks, they ignore. Hatches, doors (man made things, but NOT concrete/steel etc blocks.) they attack.

Right now, they seem to ignore hatches.

Yep, that would add some danger to being underground.

"Zombies don't dig, they're brainless"
-Yet-

They know enough to not eat the other zombies.

They can walk and run around objects.

They can see.

They can smell.

They know enough to approach 'You' but not the other zombies.

They know enough to attack you.

They know how to walk up stairs/ladders.

They know enough to gather together in large groups and attack every 7 days or form wandering hordes.

They etc,.

So what is it? are they totally brainless? or is their intelligence on par with being 'Instinctual' like animals?

If like animals:

Animals dig to get at food.

They're capable of working in a pack.

They're capable of getting around objects that block them.

They're etc,.

This is not just for you @canadianbluebeer. Nor is it a rant or me being accusatory.

I've just been seeing this a lot lately..

Maybe the question should be "How dumb should the zombies actually be?".

I vote that they should be 'Instinctual' at the least as far as Intelligence goes, especially when it comes to the survival portion of the game.

 

[Guppycur]

Problem is, how you going to get the zombies to spawn inside a terrain block?
If not, then you're down to having them spawn at the nearest free block (wherever that could be!) and tunnel/dug their way there, or alternately, have them violate normal spawning rules (including the bed), to spawn inside a base or tunnel.

Some small code wizardry to change a random block and the block above it to an entity. Really, the only issue NOW, since you can just sprinkle the sleepers in the terrain (like you would gold, but at a higher spawn rate) is making the sleeper volume itself... so:

Either change it so that you can include prefabs in terrain (to get the volumes) or,

change it so that sleeper blocks carry a volume with them.

Done. You're welcome. =)

 

[Cadamier]

I'm here for the Rights of the Zombies!!! I'm fighting for their right to dig if they please!

FYI: Not all 'zombies' are the same - they're treated and given different abilities in 'every world' so 'they're' a 'generalization' and they don't have to be 'one way' for 7 Days to Die - they'll be the way TFP wants them to be.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Some small code wizardry to change a random block and the block above it to an entity. Really, the only issue NOW, since you can just sprinkle the sleepers in the terrain (like you would gold, but at a higher spawn rate) is making the sleeper volume itself... so:
Either change it so that you can include prefabs in terrain (to get the volumes) or,

change it so that sleeper blocks carry a volume with them.

Done. You're welcome. =)

This would still leave the problem of those people who make underground bases having no way to combat the spawned in zombie on the other side of the wall short of waiting for them to (eventually!) break through the wall so they could shoot them (short of using iron bars for all their "walls").

While I'm no great fan of underground bases per se, I think that would be a little harsh on the mole people.

 

[Roland]

Now, what Roland was talking about is a different subject. It's not so much about the already established underground bases, but the challenges one might find while exploring (through digging) underground. Those would be an interesting addition to the game.

Just to be clear I want both. I’d be satisfied with one single special zombie type that can dig because then I could mod the ability to the rest of them for my own game. Personally, I have VERY fond memories of when all zombies could dig and I liked the aesthetics of and the danger of entering Swiss cheese terrain.

 

[Tin]

Just to be clear I want both. I’d be satisfied with one single special zombie type that can dig because then I could mod the ability to the rest of them for my own game. Personally, I have VERY fond memories of when all zombies could dig and I liked the aesthetics of and the danger of entering Swiss cheese terrain.

Funny thing is, 'SOME' are acting like suggestions can't even be options anymore. Who ever said digging zeds needed to be in the default game? They could just as easily be in "Advanced Settings" or a "hard mode" setting.. But 'Some' don't even want to humor that as even being an option.

I guess only certain suggestions are allowed to be discussed..

 

[Roland]

Funny thing is, 'SOME' are acting like suggestions can't even be options anymore. Who ever said digging zeds needed to be in the default game? They could just as easily be in "Advanced Settings" or a "hard mode" setting.. But 'Some' don't even want to humor that as even being an option.I guess only certain suggestions are allowed to be discussed..

They think we are doing a whammy on the developers. If we say it, the game WILL be changed and their playstyle forcibly removed by us, hence we must stop saying it.

 

[meganoth]

This would still leave the problem of those people who make underground bases having no way to combat the spawned in zombie on the other side of the wall short of waiting for them to (eventually!) break through the wall so they could shoot them (short of using iron bars for all their "walls").
While I'm no great fan of underground bases per se, I think that would be a little harsh on the mole people.

I suspect if you think about it for a day or make a brainstorming session you could find lots of solutions with bigger and smaller drawbacks as well. Here is what I came up with without too much thinking:

A) Obvious short cut solution already mentioned is giving mole people the option to turn off whatever is too harsh for them

B) Who says some special underground spawned zombie has no special drawbacks? Maybe his claws are so much specialized on digging through ground and stone that he simply can't tunnel through metal. This zombie would still endanger you while digging new tunnels but won't be a danger to your treasure chamber.

C) Maybe the dig-zombie can't cross any water blocks. You would build your chamber under a river and flood a layer around that chamber. Either one heavily fortified door would be a small weakness or you build a watergate/airlock out of two doors.

D) Underground dangers need not be zombie-related (although I really don't like dangers that have to be countered by brainless grind, see temperature swings)

E) Such zombies could spawn underground only as a result of you digging (maybe because you dig out graves down there and wake the skeletons there) and they despawn relatively fast. Once you have dug out your base and a bit of space around it that base is practically safe

F) Fast despawn of such zombies plus the non-spawn block (forgot the name, you probably know what I mean).

G) There are digging zombies, but they simply don't ever go below a certain depth. That depth MUST be configurable and could go to 0 on highest difficulty

H) There are zombie moles (real moles, animals, not player moles). They can't get through metal or really harm you but they close any tunnels behind them, even player made. They are not so much a thread directly but could leave you stuck down there. This needs TFP to add a new feature called suffocation (windows or doors don't count when measuring enclosement)

 

[Jihh]

Hi all.

I'm more on the reading side on this forum yet, but this discussion is one I like to add my 2 cents to. From both sides there are a lot of arguments I'd like to answer to, but it would take me days to do so, so I'll just keep my post kinda short.

I'm not as big as a zombie fan as others, but I watched my fair share of zombie movies and tv shows. As far as I remember there seldom were unsecure hideouts/bases when it comes to just zombies. There is a reason why the protagonists are still alive when we start watching or reading about them. In almost every case the security fails because a) other humans join the scene, b) trouble in paradise or c) something unexpected happens outside and the protagonists doesn't have enough time to take all security measurements on their way back or are too injured.

Since it's a zombie game and not a game with a new kind of monster, it kinda makes sense to actually orientate on existing zombie lore. So it makes sense if bases are somewhat safe even without choosing a hide perk. In a more realistic approach bunkers and high bases are preferable.

Now I get that in a game some things have to be altered in order to offer a better gameplay. But imho the problem isn't that a base is safe and thus somewhat limiting the survival aspect. This is what I actually expected aside from the blood moon nights. I think the problem is the not existing necessity to leave your base past day three. And of course, if you can stay in your base day and night without leaving it, then a low maintenance and somewhat safe base is a big problem and I understand that then there is a change needed. And while you can argue that there are reasons to leave your base past day 3, I'll have to say that after I got 34 mechanical parts and two small engines I won't leave the immediate perimeter of my base for days. And I don't even have a underground or stilt base. In my last games I took over a small poi, built a garden to the left and planted some trees to the right. I usually play on the higher difficulties, sometimes with zombies running day and night, loot on 25% and 60 minute days. So it's not like a take the easy path to be done at day three.

Of course after some time I leave my base again, but not because I need to survival wise, but because I like to learn every schematic/book and because at some time I get bored just building my base and killing the one to two hordes a day.

So as I see it, the survival aspect of underground bases isn't missing because those bases are too safe, but because the survival aspect of the game overall is missing, since you you can stay alive with just a 20x20 yucca farm, which can be placed beneath your overground base, on your stilt base or in a underground garden in your underground base. The additional risks on the first one don't really matter for how few time you need to harvest and sow those.

This won't change due to some zombies digging. What we actually need (imho) is a necessity to leave your base 14+ hours a day on average and (since we aren't sleeping in the game und thus have spare hours) 6+ hours of maintenance a day on average. The maintenance part can be different according to the kind of base you have. While overground bases get more damage, the maintenance could be managed with a need to repair those. In underground bases the maintenance could be keeping up your ventilation system plus repairing your exits.

Implement a ventilation system with effects similar to diving and let it produce heat, so screamer go for them. Let them scream near your exhaust air pipes and let zombies clog them. There you have a necessity to get outside and maintain your base. The more heat you produce the more zombies are waiting for you. And better don't wait until it's already fully clogged, since that could happen in the middle of the night. Also make screamer related zombies harder, so you actually have to get better weapons and put some talent points into combat.

That's a challenge I would actually like and I even would start doing underground bases. Digging zombies on the other hand would just keep me from going underground at all. You wouldn't want to engange zombies in small rooms ever in a zombie apocalypse (and also not outside of a zombie apocalypse). Of course this can't be avoided all the time, since you have to loot buildings, but why would I ever dig down to them? Survival wise this doesn't make sense at all and instead of making a biome more interesting, it would make it expendable to me.

Now as I already said, we need a necessity to leave your base outside of maintenance and gardening. This is a whole new topic, so I won't go into it, but please consider that in my opinion a base should just be for horde nights, crafting, storage and "sleeping". With the reason that you have stuff to do outside to be able to survive.

 

[Typhon13]

I dug a bunch of tunnels 2 wide and 4 high at a downward angle to bedrock. There are a few in the desert and forest and one in the snow.

They're connected at bedrock level and have dozens of mining shafts heading in every direction. They form a maze that is easy to get lost in if you leave the main tunnels.

Every time I go down there I end up running into zombies. I have good guns and they're easy enough to deal with, but it's way easier above ground where there is more room to move.

 

[Kurogo]

Just to be clear I want both. I’d be satisfied with one single special zombie type that can dig because then I could mod the ability to the rest of them for my own game. Personally, I have VERY fond memories of when all zombies could dig and I liked the aesthetics of and the danger of entering Swiss cheese terrain.

To a degree, Cop Zombies are capable of that now. I wonder if it's possible to modify their vomit attack behavior so it doesn't need line of sight to the player.

 

[hillbilly]

4.7 thousand hours in 7dtd, still a fun game, still a great way to burn up a Saturday night. What made this game so great, what made this game so special is the fact a player can play ANY WAY THEY WANT TO. Want to be a farmer, want to be a builder, want to be a scavenger, want to be a miner it's all possible. When I see threads like this it just turns my stomach, you play how you want to play and don't worry about how other people want to play. I really hope the fun pimps are smart enough to disregard trash threads such as this one, because as soon as they remove the options to play as one chooses is as soon as this games dies. Many changes have been made that I do not like, and many more changes have been made that I really enjoy, but through all these changes the concept and the principal has remained the same, change that and you change the game, change the game and I can assure you many old players like myself will just be done with it. This game being what it is, is why I play. I am 40 years old as of this past May, I am NOT a gamer, I used to play tons of video games as a teenager but much much less so as an adult, games are a waste of life, time and usually money, 7dtd is not like any other "game", imo, strip these qualities and I would wager you will lose a massive chunk of your audience, players such as myself who really aren't "gamers" but love this game.