PC Unable to find rad remover schematic

[POCKET951]

I am playing on Pregen8k alpha 20 B238
It is 100% loot and buildings reset every 30 days
I am level 120+ and I only have 1 Rad remover mod

(on day 87 now) Since day 70 I have been checking all 13 traders with acesss to secret stash tier 2 and 3 through better barter 4 and 5 with the goggle removal
It takes me from 6:05 till 22:00 to check them all more or less

I have looted both tudor_mansion_01 Pois (houses with underground bunkers and library uptop(tier 3 Pois), not modern_house_18(big tier 4 mansion)

I have looted every single bookstore on the map, some twice with quest resets

I have done crack a book HQ 3 times

I have checked various numerous mail boxes, news stands and crack a book containers

I did the church with the library in the basement

I have looted over 250 schematics and I haven't seen a single one for a rad remover

Why is something so essential for lategame gated behind rng?

Why can't it be a tier4 quest bonus reward option?

Why can't we scrap 5 random schematics to get a new random one

I have had all skill books completed since day 50

I don't get it

why can't I find this one schematic I need, or even this one mod.

any ideas?

 

[theFlu]

Hmm.. it exists in loot tables, but it seems to be subject to loot probabilities from ProbT2; which turns out to become 0 at loot stage 240 and above. If you're below that, you have a chance of finding one. It's rare since it's along a lot of other stuff of course, so you may have gone past the necessary stages. Biome multipliers may come in handy there, you might be below the threshold in forest or some other..

Another potential source is questing, where it follows QuestT3Prob; that uses numbers between 0 and 7 for "level", I assume that means quest level; but I don't know how that translates into actual quests. The best chance is from a "level" 5, looking at quest.xml, I assume it's actual Tier 5 quests, but ehh, it's not exactly readable.

And well, while useful, the mod merely disables a little regen; unless it was changed for A20, a decent burst kill won't be effected at all, only if you let one run around freely for a while will you need extra rounds due to the regen. So it's not that big of a deal; of course the completionist in me cries for you..

 

[Mahnogard]

Unless I missed something (and I might have), in the Loot.xml, that schematic is in the loot group "schematicsModsAndGeneralT2" which is only listed for T3 quest rewards and Twitch schematic drops. I'm not seeing a reference or any sort of additional parent group(s) that would allow it to drop elsewhere. 

(Edit - I missed a group, see posts below.) 

The mod itself has a chance to appear in the buried supplies quests, weapons bags, hidden stash boxes, small safes, and strong + boss zombie loot bags. And it's in a group within a group, so it's a low probability within a low probability. 

 

[theFlu]

that schematic is in the loot group "schematicsModsAndGeneralT2" which is only listed for T3 quest rewards and Twitch schematic drops.

That group is also included in "schematicsModsAndGeneralCommon" on line 2290, which is included in trash and some other places.

 

[Mahnogard]

That group is also included in "schematicsModsAndGeneralCommon" on line 2290, which is included in trash and some other places.

LOL Yeah, I was coming back to edit my post when I saw yours. And @POCKET951's level is just about at peak probability for that group so while still rare, it could possibly show up in various paper goods containers,

 

[POCKET951]

Hmm.. it exists in loot tables, but it seems to be subject to loot probabilities from ProbT2; which turns out to become 0 at loot stage 240 and above. If you're below that, you have a chance of finding one. It's rare since it's along a lot of other stuff of course, so you may have gone past the necessary stages. Biome multipliers may come in handy there, you might be below the threshold in forest or some other..

Another potential source is questing, where it follows QuestT3Prob; that uses numbers between 0 and 7 for "level", I assume that means quest level; but I don't know how that translates into actual quests. The best chance is from a "level" 5, looking at quest.xml, I assume it's actual Tier 5 quests, but ehh, it's not exactly readable.

And well, while useful, the mod merely disables a little regen; unless it was changed for A20, a decent burst kill won't be effected at all, only if you let one run around freely for a while will you need extra rounds due to the regen. So it's not that big of a deal; of course the completionist in me cries for you..

my lootstage just standing in the middle of a road in the forest is 167, and its 190 in a tier 3 POI, I also think it is silly that it is 0 percent at lootstage 240+ because that means I can't find it in any other biome

can we fix that? shouldnt a rad remover schematic/mod be able to drop at any lootstage in the game?

Unless I missed something (and I might have), in the Loot.xml, that schematic is in the loot group "schematicsModsAndGeneralT2" which is only listed for T3 quest rewards and Twitch schematic drops. I'm not seeing a reference or any sort of additional parent group(s) that would allow it to drop elsewhere. 

(Edit - I missed a group, see posts below.) 

The mod itself has a chance to appear in the buried supplies quests, weapons bags, hidden stash boxes, small safes, and strong + boss zombie loot bags. And it's in a group within a group, so it's a low probability within a low probability. 

my horde base is in the wasteland, it will never drop in any of those lootbags

 

[theFlu]

I also think it is silly that it is 0 percent at lootstage 240+ because that means I can't find it in any other biome

Well, the design intent is that the T2 group steps aside and gives way to the T3 group - which doesn't exist for book stuff.

can we fix that? shouldnt a rad remover schematic/mod be able to drop at any lootstage in the game?

There's an infinite ways to fixing that, one would mostly need to decide what they want, make a mod and test whatever else they've ended up messing up in the loot - the "problematic" ProbT2 is used in a whole host of places.

"any" is a bit too strong, I have no use for one on day 1, I'd rather have my boiled meat schematic there. But "any beyond a certain start point", sure.

For a something of a terrible-but-not-necessary-fatal fix, you might edit the loot.xml at line 373.

        <loot level="240,999999" prob="0"/>

=>

        <loot level="240,999999" prob="0.35"/>

This will make tier 2 weapons eternally compete with tier 3:s in the table though, so you'll get a bit of a penalty in exchange

 

[Boidster]

Hmm.. it exists in loot tables, but it seems to be subject to loot probabilities from ProbT2; which turns out to become 0 at loot stage 240 and above.

Holy crap good catch. I'm not a game designer and neither is my girlfriend, but that sure seems like a bug. Or a design change with unintended consequences? At a basic level, we all can understand this mechanic:

As the player gamestage increases, better loot becomes available.

But should lower-level loot become unavailable? A19.3 didn't have this problem, with T1 only going down to 0.37 and T2 only going down to 0.46, so they always were in the mix. If they're going to have finite probability curves, they need to make extra special sure that every item is available somehow outside of the curves. But IMO the A19 solution was just fine.

The best chance is from a "level" 5, looking at quest.xml, I assume it's actual Tier 5 quests

I'm pretty sure that this is correct. What we call "tier 5" quests are called "level 5" in the XML.

 

[POCKET951]

Well, the design intent is that the T2 group steps aside and gives way to the T3 group - which doesn't exist for book stuff.

There's an infinite ways to fixing that, one would mostly need to decide what they want, make a mod and test whatever else they've ended up messing up in the loot - the "problematic" ProbT2 is used in a whole host of places.

"any" is a bit too strong, I have no use for one on day 1, I'd rather have my boiled meat schematic there. But "any beyond a certain start point", sure.

For a something of a terrible-but-not-necessary-fatal fix, you might edit the loot.xml at line 373.

        <loot level="240,999999" prob="0"/>

=>

        <loot level="240,999999" prob="0.35"/>

This will make tier 2 weapons eternally compete with tier 3:s in the table though, so you'll get a bit of a penalty in exchange

it makes no sense to me that schematics no longer drop after lootstage 240. It means I can only find this item in the forest and the more rewarding zones, are not actually more rewarding because some of the things I want just wont drop in the those zones

Holy crap good catch. I'm not a game designer and neither is my girlfriend, but that sure seems like a bug. Or a design change with unintended consequences? At a basic level, we all can understand this mechanic:

As the player gamestage increases, better loot becomes available.

But should lower-level loot become unavailable? A19.3 didn't have this problem, with T1 only going down to 0.37 and T2 only going down to 0.46, so they always were in the mix. If they're going to have finite probability curves, they need to make extra special sure that every item is available somehow outside of the curves. But IMO the A19 solution was just fine.

I'm pretty sure that this is correct. What we call "tier 5" quests are called "level 5" in the XML.

oh those things I have done zero of. looks like I will be doing some tier 5 Poi's in the forest. but I will probably only be able to do 2 per 3 hour cycle because I have to dedicate a day every 3 days to trader checking

 

[Boidster]

can we fix that? shouldnt a rad remover schematic/mod be able to drop at any lootstage in the game?

I had a modlet for A19 which would add a teeny tiny chance for T2 and T3 loot at the lower gamestages. I never did add it to Nexus; maybe I'll resurrect it for A20 and put it out there.

This specific issue with probT2 (and also probT1) going to 0 probability probably requires its own modlet. Which I can also throw together. Basically putting it back to how A19 was, with a small but neverending chance of getting T1 or T2 loot even as you get into higher gamestages. It will shift the balance towards weaker loot as the game progresses, but at least nothing would be cut off entirely.

 

[POCKET951]

One more question. Can this schematic appear in all of the traders secret stashes as well? What can appear in traders secret stash tier2/3?

 

[Morloc]

It's something you'd only want after you regularly start encountering irradiated zombies...yet once you are, you're unlikely to find it?

Well, actually, it's pretty cool at any level since you can put it in anything for a damage boost.

Balance oversight?

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

 

[Boidster]

Can this schematic appear in all of the traders secret stashes as well? What can appear in traders secret stash tier2/3?

Not a trader expert, but from the looks of it (traders.xml, which includes its own complete set of loot groups) the Rad Remover schematic is not available from traders at all. The Rad Remover mod itself is available, but not the schematic.

Unfortunately, figuring out what might appear in the secret stash would be a significant effort. There are groups within groups going on.

 

[POCKET951]

Not a trader expert, but from the looks of it (traders.xml, which includes its own complete set of loot groups) the Rad Remover schematic is not available from traders at all. The Rad Remover mod itself is available, but not the schematic.

Unfortunately, figuring out what might appear in the secret stash would be a significant effort. There are groups within groups going on.

What? Traders can't sell rad remover schematics in the secret stash? I should stop wasting my time checking the traders then. Also that seems like an oversight

 

[Krougal]

Holy crap good catch. I'm not a game designer and neither is my girlfriend, but that sure seems like a bug. Or a design change with unintended consequences? At a basic level, we all can understand this mechanic:

As the player gamestage increases, better loot becomes available.

But should lower-level loot become unavailable? A19.3 didn't have this problem, with T1 only going down to 0.37 and T2 only going down to 0.46, so they always were in the mix. If they're going to have finite probability curves, they need to make extra special sure that every item is available somehow outside of the curves. But IMO the A19 solution was just fine.

I'm pretty sure that this is correct. What we call "tier 5" quests are called "level 5" in the XML.

I see what you did there, I think we all need to start prefacing our comments with that now

If we don't call these things to the pimps attention they probably aren't going to know. Much as I love to rag on QA people, there are simply too many items and too many combinations of loot stage and RNG for them to possibly catch everything.

Not everyone is "just being a crybaby" about not finding what they want, there's legitimate issues that need minor tweaking.

 

[Boidster]

The loot tier probability fix modlet is now available on Nexus. It adjusts ProbT0, ProbT1, and ProbT2 to have probabilities of 0.1, 0.2, and 0.25, respectively, at high lootstages.

I'm unsure if TFP intended the 'unintended' consequence of the loot probability changes, but at the very least this modlet will allow "no trader" players to still find that last schematic or anything else tied to the T0-T2 probability tables.

What? Traders can't sell rad remover schematics in the secret stash? I should stop wasting my time checking the traders then. Also that seems like an oversight

As near as I can tell, yes. The item just doesn't appear anywhere in traders.xml which does specifically list every single item traders sell I think. It doesn't reference back out to loot.xml, which is for generic and quest loot.

I'll take a look to see if there are other schematics which are missing from the traders.

 

[POCKET951]

It's something you'd only want after you regularly start encountering irradiated zombies...yet once you are, you're unlikely to find it?

Well, actually, it's pretty cool at any level since you can put it in anything for a damage boost.

Balance oversight?

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

definitely an unintended oversight. It is something that isn't an ESSENTIAL lategame item, but it can only be found in early to mid game, and can't be found in the lategame when you will most likely make use of/need it. It would make more sense if I could find it in the wasteland or the snow biome where my lootstage is over 300+ but I can't and I am level 120. It doesn't make sense considering how many irradiated zombies I encounter that an item that helps deal with them just doesn't drop

Could we get QA or someone from TFP to pass some kind of feedback on? as stated above, definitely seems like an unintended oversight that should be addressed.

 

[Krougal]

The loot tier probability fix modlet is now available on Nexus. It adjusts ProbT0, ProbT1, and ProbT2 to have probabilities of 0.1, 0.2, and 0.25, respectively, at high lootstages.

I'm unsure if TFP intended the 'unintended' consequence of the loot probability changes, but at the very least this modlet will allow "no trader" players to still find that last schematic or anything else tied to the T0-T2 probability tables.

As near as I can tell, yes. The item just doesn't appear anywhere in traders.xml which does specifically list every single item traders sell I think. It doesn't reference back out to loot.xml, which is for generic and quest loot.

I'll take a look to see if there are other schematics which are missing from the traders.

I don't care what Meganoth says about you, you're all right!

 

[Boidster]

I'll take a look to see if there are other schematics which are missing from the traders.

Aaaand I'm back. The following schematics do not appear in traders.xml:

armorIronSetSchematic
armorLeatherSetSchematic
foodCanShamSchematic
gunHandgunT3DesertVultureSchematic
gunMGT2TacticalARSchematic
gunMGT3M60Schematic
gunRifleT3SniperRifleSchematic
gunShotgunT3AutoShotgunSchematic
modArmorAdvancedMuffledConnectorsSchematic
modArmorCustomizedFittingsSchematic
modArmorImpactBracingSchematic
modArmorPlatingReinforcedSchematic
modArmorTripleStoragePocketSchematic
modArmorWaterPurifierSchematic
modGunLaserSightSchematic
modGunMeleeRadRemoverSchematic
modGunScopeLargeSchematic
modGunSoundSuppressorSilencerSchematic
modGunTriggerGroupAutomaticSchematic
modGunTriggerGroupBurst3Schematic
modMeleeBunkerBusterSchematic
modMeleeIronBreakerSchematic
modRoboticDroneWeaponModSchematic

 

[Boidster]

Could we get QA or someone from TFP to pass some kind of feedback on? as stated above, definitely seems like an unintended oversight that should be addressed.

Yeah I dunno if they really even want bug reports about balance issues like this. @Roland what do you think? The root issue, if the thread is TL;DR is this:

The new A20 loot.xml makes it impossible to find lootstage-scaled loot past a certain lootstage. The player gets "too good" to ever find lower-tier things. It's probably most troublesome with the "Tier 2" loot - especially books & schematics - which are still valuable later in the game.