PC Tried A19, A16 is still best Alpha

[pApA^LeGBa]

@eXSe the difference? You need to actually fight zombies if you farm XP with screamers.  With LBD you could sit in the crafting menu of the forge, getting skillpoints while beeing afk. 

Also A16 was over at day 35 even earlier if you min/maxed your gameplay well. You had everything and could kill everything at that point. Boring compared to the slower progression we have right now. 

Don´t get me wrong, i had a lot of fun with all the previous versions (no, not you A17, not you) but having played A19 now, makes them look bad tbh.

 

[eXSe]

@eXSe the difference? You need to actually fight zombies if you farm XP with screamers, and even if you pull off a afk screamer base you need to get ressources for that and need to build it. With LBD you could sit in the crafting menu of the forge, getting skillpoints while beeing afk. 

Also A16 was over at day 35 even earlier if you min/maxed your gameplay well. You had everything and could kill everything pretty fast. Boring. 

Yes, but looking into the forge or AFK-ing would be boring AF and nobody in their right mind would call that playing the game. Also, you need resources for that too.

What I'm talking about are normal people who play the game without trying to beat the system and I felt that A16 had something to it that tickled my fancy more than this pure XP conversion to magical skills. Let's call it realism or immersion... organic progression even.

 

[Kalen]

@eXSe the difference? You need to actually fight zombies if you farm XP with screamers.  With LBD you could sit in the crafting menu of the forge, getting skillpoints while beeing afk. 

Also A16 was over at day 35 even earlier if you min/maxed your gameplay well. You had everything and could kill everything at that point. Boring compared to the slower progression we have right now. 

Don´t get me wrong, i had a lot of fun with all the previous versions (no, not you A17, not you) but having played A19 now, makes them look bad tbh.

That seems like it would've been simple to combat "after X number of skill points you stop gaining them for Y number of minutes"   

 

[Roland]

Yes, exactly. It has become an XP grind to get to where you want instead of organic progression through sheer gameplay.

I do know that LBD was used and abused, but so can be everything... fire up 20 forges, call up screamers and farm them for XP. What's better about that? Huh.

Just as anything can be abused so can anything be played organically. There is nothing forcing you to play the current system in an unnatural manner. You can mine when you need to, kill zombies when necessary, build a fort, explore, loot, trade, farm— all in a very natural manner and based on in-game goals and objectives.

There is only one reason anyone would ignore natural gameplay and instead grind the one activity perceived to be the single best source of XP. But if you are one of those types of players you’re going to do that kind of stuff no matter what system is in place. 

 

[FileMachete]

Let's be honest about LBD. Condeming the entire mechanic due to spam crafting and sitting on cacti is like saying every compact car is horrible because of the Gremlin and the Pinto.

Applied judiciously, to things where it makes sense, it could be a nice thing.

Travel x kilometers, improve cardio a bit.

Wear armor for a few days, slight reduction in mobility penalty.

Simple capping of gains based on game time passed allows prevention of abuse.

Getting 'tougher' from taking damage; if player takes damage > or = to max health over 5 days they gain 2 max health (50 days in = +20 hps)

Also simply capping the max benefits from LBD means it could be just early to mid game additional minor progression.

I get it's not coming back. And that what I describe is more along the lines of what a AAA dev house can afford to do. It'd be 'nice', and TFPs still have major things to do and limited time to do them in.

Just wanted to point out that, at least from what I've read, almost no one who's advocated for LDB wants to also see spam crafting or cacti nesting return.

To A16 vs. A19.

I really enjoyed the first week of a new A16 game. Constant pressure to get that first horde night base built (I refused, like many did, to take over a POI in a16, which was a bit 'cheesy' back then).

And hordes in general were much more 'in your face' in a16. Was very common to build melee bases and take on the hordes with a club or machete and a repair tool. A17 really destroyed that imo. To be fair, a19 looks like it may be possible to go pure melee with a pole defense base again, if only for the first or second horde nights. I haven't tried as I'm still too trained (traumatized heh) by a17. And the early game mining nerf in a19 is a real disincentive to attempting to build your own base by day 7 imo.

Yes, games in a16 were quicker than now. Yet it could be argued that a16 simply ran at the speed it did based on what the game had to offer.

Checkers vs. Chess. More content = longer playthroughs.

Narrowing the comparison to just the first week, including the horde, there's no question which alpha I had more fun playing.

 

[eXSe]

Just as anything can be abused so can anything be played organically. There is nothing forcing you to play the current system in an unnatural manner. You can mine when you need to, kill zombies when necessary, build a fort, explore, loot, trade, farm— all in a very natural manner and based on in-game goals and objectives.

There is only one reason anyone would ignore natural gameplay and instead grind the one activity perceived to be the single best source of XP. But if you are one of those types of players you’re going to do that kind of stuff no matter what system is in place. 

I agree. Those who want to min/max or farm XP will do things in the most efficient perceived manner with the system gifts/restrictions that they've been given. All of that is fine and i know that that will happen.

What I'm saying is simply that I had a much more fun and immersive experience in the game with that old system. Why? It felt more natural to progress in those areas in which you expended effort. You did the things you liked, wanted or needed to do and you got better at them without thinking about it... every now and then you were pleasantly surprised with "hey, you've got better at X" and I liked that. It was like a little present you weren't expecting to get

"But what if you hate Y and need it? Now you have to grind it by doing the exact thing you hate." Well, yes and no. If you're a completionist, then yes. But it's your own damn fault Otherwise, you can make do with trading and scavenging to fill that need.

In the end, I know that I'm wasting my breath with this topic, but I just don't see the up side with this system over that one.

 

[HungryZombie]

With no degradation once you have a purple level weapon finding any quality of that weapon is a waste other than to sell it and there is zero weight to that decision. 

I didn't know they removed random stats from the game.

 

[Kalen]

I didn't know they removed random stats from the game.

Ok fine.....

With no degradation once you have a purple level weapon with optimal stats finding any quality of that weapon is a waste other than to sell it and there is zero weight to that decision. 

 

[HungryZombie]

Ok fine.....

With no degradation once you have a purple level weapon with optimal stats finding any quality of that weapon is a waste other than to sell it and there is zero weight to that decision. 

Good luck finding a complete set of purple gear with optimal stats.

 

[Kalen]

Good luck finding a complete set of purple gear with optimal stats.

Thanks

It still really doesn't change anything.... without item degradation, choice is very simple.  If you find a better item you keep it, if its worse you sell it.   With item degradation you have to think about how long will my current item last.... if it will last long enough, I can sell the item I found.... if its nearing the end of its life, I have to consider keeping what I found, even though its a little worse.   

Complicated choices are good for the game.... A>B so sell B is not complicated.

 

[eXSe]

Not everything has to, or can for that matter, be optimal. Therefore, I'd be for choices also.

 

[HungryZombie]

Thanks

It still really doesn't change anything.... without item degradation, choice is very simple.  If you find a better item you keep it, if its worse you sell it.   With item degradation you have to think about how long will my current item last.... if it will last long enough, I can sell the item I found.... if its nearing the end of its life, I have to consider keeping what I found, even though its a little worse.   

Complicated choices are good for the game.... A>B so sell B is not complicated.

So we agree that the game does not lack a reason to keep looting even once you a purple item.

I'm not sure I understand the complicated choice you are referring to. In fact there is little choice. The item is going to break no matter what. Use it up and move on. That's pretty simple if you ask me. Kind of a kick in the balls when you find the perfect stat weapon and you know you're only going to get 5 uses out of it or whatever.

Still, my intent was not to discuss the validity of item degradation but rather to verify that random stats did indeed remain in the game because if there are random stats, then there is indeed an incentive to keep looting even after you find a purple item.

A fact that seemed to be overlooked in the discussion.

 

[Kalen]

I'm not sure I understand the complicated choice you are referring to. In fact there is little choice. The item is going to break no matter what. Use it up and move on. That's pretty simple if you ask me. Kind of a kick in the balls when you find the perfect stat weapon and you know you're only going to get 5 uses out of it or whatever.

If items last forever, the only time you would keep a new item is if its superior to the old item.   That is a simple choice.

If an item doesn't last forever then you have to decide what is more important:  Having an eventual replacement for your current item or the coins you would get by selling it.  That is not as simple a choice.

And I agree, getting 5 uses out of an item would be silly..... getting unlimited uses out of an item is equally silly

 

[RipClaw]

If an item doesn't last forever then you have to decide what is more important:  Having an eventual replacement for your current item or the coins you would get by selling it.  That is not as simple a choice.

You assume that an equivalent replacement can always be found. I have one purple Auto Shotgun and one purple Auger and I haven't found another one yet because they are so rare.

I can craft a blue variant of both at any time but there is a mod slot missing. So if I know that a certain item is very rare and I won't get it again in this game with high probability then it's pointless to use it because I can't keep it anyway. It's just a collector's item in a showcase. Nice to look at but useless.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I still have original Castle Wolfenstein floppy somewhere. Think it was for my Commodore 64.

I STILL play Age of Empires 1 and 2.  More 2 than 1.   I yearn for an updated version/remake of Starflight.

 

[Feycat]

Yes, exactly. It has become an XP grind to get to where you want instead of organic progression through sheer gameplay.

I do know that LBD was used and abused, but so can be everything... fire up 20 forges, call up screamers and farm them for XP. What's better about that? Huh.

The difference is that I'm actually getting stronger by DOING something.

Saying "it makes sense to make 500 axes and get better at making guns" and then ALSO saying "it's stupid to be able to farm screamers for xp to get better at making axes" is self-contradictory at BEST and hypocritical as all get-out.  Tf is "organic" about making 500 axes to level but actually *fighting zombies in the zombie game* somehow isn't?

 

[Kalen]

You assume that an equivalent replacement can always be found. I have one purple Auto Shotgun and one purple Auger and I haven't found another one yet because they are so rare.

I can craft a blue variant of both at any time but there is a mod slot missing. So if I know that a certain item is very rare and I won't get it again in this game with high probability then it's pointless to use it because I can't keep it anyway. It's just a collector's item in a showcase. Nice to look at but useless.

I dont assume that at all.   That just adds to the challenge, IMO.   

I guess I just don't understand the mentality of being afraid of losing an item so you never use it.... with that philosophy you might as well not bother looting the item in the first place and save an inventory slot.

 

[RipClaw]

I dont assume that at all.   That just adds to the challenge, IMO. 

No, it only adds frustration. Imagine you find after all this searching finally the Q6 item you searched but you know you can't keep it. So what is it good for? I might as well stick with my Q5 items that I could craft at any time.
 

I guess I just don't understand the mentality of being afraid of losing an item so you never use it.... with that philosophy you might as well not bother looting the item in the first place and save an inventory slot.

I didn't say I was afraid to lose it, but I see it as pointless to do so. Why even fill the last modslot when some repairs later the quality will drop by one level anyway ?

Currently I do not have this problem and I never had it. When degradation was part of the game, we were able to craft flawless items and combine parts to bring everything back to maximum quality.

By the way, I always keep one spare for everything I use. Just in case I lose it. I don't rely on luck but on preparation.

 

[Kalen]

No, it only adds frustration. Imagine you find after all this searching finally the Q6 item you searched but you know you can't keep it. So what is it good for? I might as well stick with my Q5 items that I could craft at any time.
 

I didn't say I was afraid to lose it, but I see it as pointless to do so. Why even fill the last modslot when some repairs later the quality will drop by one level anyway ?

Currently I do not have this problem and I never had it. When degradation was part of the game, we were able to craft flawless items and combine parts to bring everything back to maximum quality.

By the way, I always keep one spare for everything I use. Just in case I lose it. I don't rely on luck but on preparation.

What good is it for?   What good is any item in the game good for.... you use it.   Currently, you just use it forever, there is no decisions to be made.  With item degradation, you use it when you feel you need it, now you have to make decisions.  

How is it pointless?   Items only have a point if they last forever?   I'm not going to debate how a system that doesn't exist will or won't work.... but if it were up to me, items would keep their number of mod slots and just degrade in quality.   

On a side note.... how do you break up a quote into 2 or more sections?   I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

 

[FileMachete]

On a side note.... how do you break up a quote into 2 or more sections?   I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

Rather than clicking the "Quote" button, highlight the text you want and there should be a little popup "Quote selection"