PC Traders: why to diminish them and how

True or not, the game incentivizes play around the trader by both the mechanics of the trader itself and the fact that the game gives very little direction except the trader where it is telling you where to go.

IOW, from the very first quest you get when you start a new character, the game is pushing you to the trader.  You can avoid it and have good reasons to as you understand the game mechanics.  In general though, I think most players are just going to go along with the flow of the game.


That's certainly true.  And I think it's another case where traders are the only NPCs in the game right now, therefore they have to be where Noah sends you.  If we get the foundations needed to support non-trader NPCs, then the starting narrative could swiftly diverge to, say, two different non-trader personalities, each with their own headquarters, with each pulling you to visit them first.

 
Not to mention how much you can do with such a system like faction reputation and/or opposing missions.

But that is all a pipe dream, game is to close for something that involved.  Likely to close for traders to shift significantly as well tbh though I am confident the pimps will balance them in the end one way or another.


I guess we'll see.  It seems obligatory at this point that the game will have bandits and a story before it goes gold.  If they renege on those things, I'd think the fallout would be astoundingly bad.  Most of the other stuff, like faction reputation, is seen as a logical outgrowth of how they'd do bandits and a story.

I can't overstate how encouraged I am by the implications of that screenshot I reposted.  First, on a technical level it makes my idea for these food truck-style traders more feasible.  It can be built mostly on existing art and programming.  Secondly, it's an example of something TFP are still massively overhauling/improving, despite fears that the game was getting too close to completion and RWG would be finalized as 'good enough'.  That gives me hope that traders, too, could still get a proper revision to deal with their deeper shortcomings, and not just a balance pass.

 
It could be frustrating if a trader dies, sure.  But it would be a temporary frustration, akin to when you don't reach the trader before they close, or when you can't get enough money to buy that one item before they restock.  The trader can respawn the next day, creating the illusion that another truck drove in overnight.  And, the easier way to implement these food truck-style traders would be to not have a walking talking human at all, but to just spawn the truck and interact with that.  In that case, while the truck is technically destructible, zombies have no reason to attack vehicles.  So you'd worry about the trader truck being destroyed by zombies about as much as you worry about your 4x4 being destroyed by zombies, which is to say hardly at all.

I'm doing my best to understand you.  I don't see how the whole 'logically zombies shouldn't destroy hard materials' argument is relevant here.  Traders in trucks is a way to do traders that accepts the logic used in the rest of the game: that zombies can destroy anything that's not bedrock.  I don't accept that traders need to be protected.  The loose end you have to tie up if they're not protected, is what to do if they're destroyed.  And traders that respawn somewhere else on a road the next day addresses that problem.

You argue that roaming the apocalypse in a truck is less logical than a sedentary lifestyle with a base and a farm etc.  I'd say that's highly subjective.  There are whole cultures of nomadic/itinerant peoples active today, including some that make their living through trade, and such groups have survived stretching back into pre-history.  I see no reason to think it wouldn't work as a strategy in this post-apocalyptic world.  What's one of the easiest ways to avoid all but one type of zombie in 7DtD?  Get on a vehicle and drive away.  Is fuel a problem?  Sure, but does it stop you from using vehicles?  No.  You scavenge gas from gas stations and fuel barrels, you mine a little oil shale and throw it in a chemistry station you find... it's a challenge but you deal with it.  The trader can do the same.

Besides which, this is all theoretical lore stuff.  You don't have to see the trader dealing with the problems of acquiring fuel and avoiding obstacles on the highway.  You can use your imagination for how he or she deals with those problems on their way to parking and setting up shop in the morning.  But you do have to see the artificial protection the trader gets in the current implementation.  You have to hear the zombies banging on the walls, making the 'no damage' sound, constantly reminding you that these traders only survive because they get to break the rules of the game.  You can suspend disbelief a lot better when the trader deals with their existential threats 'off screen'.

Okay, I have a plan on how to do all this, which is easier to talk about now that this screenshot of A20 RWG is public.



Note how, unlike in past versions of the game, the cars, street lights, crosswalk etc. are 'aware' of the street: they're positioned and rotated correctly relative to the street.  The ability to do that is very powerful, and it means you can effectively put a prefab on the road itself instead of on a lot adjacent to the road.

So what you do is, you make a tiny trader prefab.  Really, the only essential part is the panel truck, but you can add a barracks chair under a little awning, with a cooler... let the world builder have fun with it.  As part of the random world generation, you put lots of these prefabs all over the roads: say, one every 100 blocks.  And then the trick is, when the game begins, these prefabs aren't active.  They're just invisible, with no collision, like a quest start node.

When it's time for a trader to 'drive in', the game picks one of these precomputed nodes to 'spawn' the prefab.  It's like resetting a POI for a quest: all the blocks in the small prefab override whatever blocks were already there.  It doesn't pick a node that's been disturbed, so it doesn't delete your base in the middle of the road or whatever weird thing is in the way there.  And this works, because it has lots and lots of nodes to choose from.  It'd be practically impossible to screw up every node in the world, and if you do, fine, no trader for you.

So it's all block replacement, like resetting a POI for a quest.  No collisions, no spawning in air, no landmines going off, no falling, no crazy physics.  And zombies attacking the truck?  That's not a thing.  Zombies won't target a vehicle in the road.  They never have.  I don't know where you got that idea.  And even if they did, it would be simple to make them not do that.  So the trader can spawn in any biome.  Heck, maybe a trader in the wasteland offers better stuff due to the heightened risk of meeting them out there.  Location, location, location.

This probably has the biggest gameplay significance among the points I've seen raised.  There would be two ways to lose a trader: they pack up for the night and leave, or their truck is destroyed.  Packing up and leaving would be most like what we have now.  We're used to the trader closing shop and being inaccessible at night, with a warning shortly before they do.  It'd be the same with a traveling trader.

If the trader is destroyed - which wouldn't happen often in practice, outside of PvP - then I'd say any missions with that trader would fail.  This seems sensible. You see it in other games, where a mission fails if a character critical to that mission dies.  I mean, I have to stress that the zombies don't target vehicles, they target players.  And you wouldn't even need to raise the HP of the panel truck in the game (even though that's a 5 minute change).  It already takes quite a beating at 2500 HP.  What to do if the truck goes boom is almost more of a technicality, to not leave edge cases unaddressed.

Also, as previously mentioned traders don't have to be the quest givers in the first place.  I think they only are because, as the only NPCs, they're the only option.  If the game has factions, then maybe all you have to do is turn the quest in to someone, anyone, representing that faction.


Respawning will be even less immersive and zombie could have reasons like " this is making a noise" Something like pipe bomb or events from l4d2 . And it pretty logical ( I love l4d2 so i will give example using it )

 I found how to make a compromise . You want 100% destuctible world? But it is something which can't be destoyed no mater how long you will be hitting it or shooting on it. Water. So my idea is to make bigger rivers ( i thinking it will be not so hard and add bigger bridges like in  L4d2  on The Parish or the sacrifise ).  And put traders on boat. They put draw bridge at day and in night guards forcing you to go away. Just let zombies drown in water (maybe exception give drowned zombies like dead island) and they will be safe . You want they travell from point to point like bus stop? Just make some ports when they stop there. I thing it the truck is less immersive that boat . Well i know there is not military outpost or  traffic but i suggest to add this because it will be just immersive. For example in walking dead , days gone or world war z  military tried to cut zombies down by creating barricades on road with barbered wire  etc so i thinking in some places it could looks rly cool. well i will do How might it  look like later. In l4d2 survivors were forced to left their car because they stuck in traffic. This same problem was i walking dead S2. Well in my opinion more road in 7dtd should have road bariers , tunnels and traffic . Easy to avoid by bike and minibike but you want to go by truck you need to clean road first ( they do it sometimes in walking dead) . And another point : if traders have their "stops" if you are late you can just waite untill they come back or go  near the river and you will find it after 1-2 km. And this solution will fix problem with quests. So you can have base near it and have access to it only for some time . When you are far from trader's boat , it will just reset localisation 

 
I do like the idea of having expensive items that are out of reach now, but that the player can aspire to obtain later.  It gives the player a goal - something to work towards - beyond an explicit quest to go here and do this.  And to be fair, the game has this to a fair degree now.  It's somewhat dampened by the 3-day loot refresh, though.  Still, I think the sheer number of items for sale is worth addressing in its own right.  A trader shouldn't have more than a dozen melee weapons to choose from (keeping in mind it's rolled separately for each player).  As I've said before in other contexts, too much luxury of choice tends to work against the sense of it being a survival game.


As long as those items can be obtained by other means, it should be fine. I was thinking about solar cells, but there could be other items i forgot about.

 
I still like the idea of trade only items.  For instance, there could be a really nice item that can only be bought with "demolisher hearts" that drop from demolishers.  You get the idea.

 
That's well worth pointing out.  But I also feel like @wizard puke has a point.  Under default options, that horde is coming on the seventh day whether you prepare for it or not.  Plus your survival needs, e.g. hunger and thirst, are always draining.  So in that sense you are always on a timer, and you need to do things to get out ahead of the threat.  Further, you hope to do things efficiently, because if you do things wastefully you'll raise your gamestage more than you raise your survivability with useful output.  So there is a driving force of sorts, pressuring you to seek efficient ways to success, like getting quest rewards on top of the stuff you'd get from a POI without the quest.


There are xp rich activities that if spammed will propel your gamestage faster than you can keep up. Killing every zombie you encounter and triggering screamer hordes to kill as many zombies as you can is an example of xp-rich activities that will cause the gamestage to possibly outpace you. I'd say that spamming quests as opposed to simply scavenging POIs on your own is also towards that end of the spectrum. Remember that your bonus reward is not just cash and gear but it is also XP on top of what you earned as you did the quest. Speed running quests is going to ratchet up your gamestage-- possibly faster than you may be comfortable with on horde night or if ferals and radiated start popping up before you are prepared for them.

Getting back to topic...How would you solve the problem of spammed quests? Even if the trader travels you will still have a marker to return to him to gain your reward. What's to stop you from taking a new quest right away? Would you not get a location to return for that quest and have to find the trader to turn in your package for your reward? I don' think that would go over very well. The only way to stop quest spamming is to limit how many can be done per day. Some people will not like that restriction.

 
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Getting back to topic...How would you solve the problem of spammed quests? Even if the trader travels you will still have a marker to return to him to gain your reward. What's to stop you from taking a new quest right away? Would you not get a location to return for that quest and have to find the trader to turn in your package for your reward? I don' think that would go over very well. The only way to stop quest spamming is to limit how many can be done per day. Some people will not like that restriction.


What if quests were only available during certain times of the day?  Other times the trader may be busy with other duties.

Or maybe have a system that regenerates "quest points" that you can spend on quests (all in the background, nothing the player could see).  Maybe that regeneration happens randomly every 1/2 of a day allowing you to do at most 3 to 4 quests per day assuming you get lucky enough to regenerate a point every time.

Just a couple options.  :p

 
I wonder if quest rewards should be nerfed, specifically the xp rewards. Especially, since doing quests or a single quest rewards quite a hefty amount of xp. Possibly, tying the amount of xp rewarded at the end based on type of quest x  tier level. 

 
Getting back to topic...How would you solve the problem of spammed quests? Even if the trader travels you will still have a marker to return to him to gain your reward. What's to stop you from taking a new quest right away? Would you not get a location to return for that quest and have to find the trader to turn in your package for your reward? I don' think that would go over very well. The only way to stop quest spamming is to limit how many can be done per day. Some people will not like that restriction.
Spammed quests are not a problem in my eyes, they're a choice.

Hard work needs to be rewarded and if you want to earn more XP in less time, why would you stop that?

As for the marker, I think that when the trader moves, the player should keep the quest, but the marker should be removed. 

You'll need to find him/her again at the new location to get your reward.  :smokin:

 
Spammed quests are not a problem in my eyes, they're a choice.

Hard work needs to be rewarded and if you want to earn more XP in less time, why would you stop that?


I agree. As long as the person who spams and speed runs the quests is happy about the way they are playing and having fun with their choices, it's great. The problem is for those who do that and then don't understand the ramifications, and then complain about how soon the game is over or how it gets too hard too fast and then they want the balance changed so that the game works best when you spam the quests because, no matter what, they are going to continue to spam and speed run the quests even if the end result is a game state they aren't satisfied with.

Like I said, I like CC's idea primarily as a means of getting rid of the land protection and adding variety. I'm perfectly happy with the frequency and rewards of the quests because I use them in moderation and am very pleased with the outcome of my choice to not spam them.

 
Are we playing different games? Raw materials? You mean like forged steel they sometimes have for a price that is way too high? And 24 or maybe 32 bars if you are lucky? What do i do with such a small amount?

Or the tiny amounts of ammo/gunpowder or casings? Seriously they do have materials, but only in such small amounts for really high prices. Better of grinding them instead of trying to get tokens to buy them. 

By the time i can actually buy decent armor and weapons from the trader, i can either make them myself or i have already looted them and in early game i am good with what i find. An nope, not on easy mode. 50mins, survivalist.

Books, potatoes, corn, mushrooms  and later on the crucible is what they are actually good for. In MP food for early game even if it is fkn expensive.

What really needs to go are those quests. Or rather the rewards need to be balanced. If you do a a few quests, you can be sure to have enough pipebombs for hordenight on day 7 usually.  

 
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You can do this, nobody is forcing you to use the traders.  Using or ignorng traders is player choice.
God do I hate stupid posts like these. I am sure I will get in trouble for saying that but why do people always have to act like they are trying to be smart and make stupid smug smarmy posts like this and ignore the entire discussion of the topic that is about making something about the game better.

Well, the guy he was responding to was calling for a complete removal of quests and I have to agree that people who want the quests completely removed should try a playthrough without them to just make sure they like the game without them.
I have been playing the game since alpha 8, it was much better before the trader quests. I also loved the 0,0 hub cities in random gen from a long while ago. Good try though.

 
God do I hate stupid posts like these. I am sure I will get in trouble for saying that but why do people always have to act like they are trying to be smart and make stupid smug smarmy posts like this and ignore the entire discussion of the topic that is about making something about the game better.


It might not be the case for everyone that this would make the game better. That´s just an opinion.

 
That's totally fine, it is fine to disagree and give a good reason. It is not fine to make an idiotic post saying it is a "choice" though when for people who actually play the game and pay attention to the discussion realize the strength of trader quest rewards and the crap of regular rewards (which I literally mentioned in my post) means its not really an option if you want to play the game anywhere near optimally and for me fun, since I am a loot goblin type player and getting stone tools and blunderbuss for hours and hours of playing and looting is not fun.

 
You can do this, nobody is forcing you to use the traders.  Using or ignorng traders is player choice.
God do I hate stupid posts like these. I am sure I will get in trouble for saying that but why do people always have to act like they are trying to be smart and make stupid smug smarmy posts like this and ignore the entire discussion of the topic that is about making something about the game better.
I agree with the sentiment, but not with the way you expressed it.

The problem is for those who do that and then don't understand the ramifications, and then complain about how soon the game is over or how it gets too hard too fast and then they want the balance changed so that the game works best when you spam the quests because, no matter what, they are going to continue to spam and speed run the quests even if the end result is a game state they aren't satisfied with.
I don't think the game should be balanced around people who can't control themselves.

It's like saying that since some people can't stop spam eating cookies, you'll be removing sugar from them to void them getting caries.  :brushteeth:

I know this same logic has been applied in the past to (e.g.) LBD, but in this case, I think we would be stretching it too far.

 
I have been playing the game since alpha 8, it was much better before the trader quests. I also loved the 0,0 hub cities in random gen from a long while ago. Good try though.


Good try? If the game was so much better without trader quests then you must be ignoring the trader quests right? If not, why not? Why would you knowingly choose to do something that makes the game worse for you? I absolutely agree that doing too much questing makes the game worse for me so, guess what? I don't do too much questing. I do the right amount that feels natural-- like what I might actually do living in a world instead of speed running a video game-- and that works for me.

And, it doesn't require the developers to remove quests or limit the number of quests available for anyone else. If you are convinced that for you the game was way better before quests came along then there is only one person to blame for having less than the time of your life when you know how you like playing. Stop torturing yourself with quests just because they are there and are a fast track for progressing your character.

So my "attempt" is actually the fix. Ignore the quests for a playthrough and just see if you like it better. If you do, then play that way. If you don't then stop complaining about how quests have ruined the game. For me, quests are fun and a definite improvement for the game because I know how I like to play and I'm not concerned about getting to level x before day y at all.

 
I don't think the game should be balanced around people who can't control themselves.

It's like saying that since some people can't stop spam eating cookies, you'll be removing sugar from them to void them getting caries.  :brushteeth:
I am sorry but that is one of the most absurd ways to talk bad about a players style of playing (looting) that I have seen in a while. It is like complaining about people who can't "control themselves" when they want to play permadeath or can't "control themselves" when they want to play with barely any zombies. It actually makes no sense. Besides my main part of the argument wasn't even the looting it was the endless driving back and forth if you want to do traders quests especially late game when you want to refresh POI or plenty of other reasons. You could have other ways to do quests not tied to driving between traders and POI hell there are already non-trader quests in the game and they could be expanded.

 
I am sorry but that is one of the most absurd ways to talk bad about a players style of playing (looting) that I have seen in a while. It is like complaining about people who can't "control themselves" when they want to play permadeath or can't "control themselves" when they want to play with barely any zombies. It actually makes no sense. Besides my main part of the argument wasn't even the looting it was the endless driving back and forth if you want to do traders quests especially late game when you want to refresh POI or plenty of other reasons. You could have other ways to do quests not tied to driving between traders and POI hell there are already non-trader quests in the game and they could be expanded.
Duh? Are you sure you quoted the right person?

I wasn't talking about you or anyone's play style... why would you think that?

Looting is fun and fine.

I was just talking about people who want to "binge-quest" using the trader: I'm simply saying it's their choice and the game shouldn't be balanced around them.  :confused2:

 
Good try? If the game was so much better without trader quests then you must be ignoring the trader quests right? If not, why not? Why would you knowingly choose to do something that makes the game worse for you? 
I literally laid it out and other people did too, the reward discrepancy for a old school type of playthrough with no traders or a playthrough with traders quests and their reward is night and day. What if I want interesting loot and rewards? And what if I want to refresh a POI later on in the game?

You know what I will just come out and say it, in my opinion the most stupid change to the game in a while was hard-tying the rewards to gamestage to try and limit player power, especially early on. They could of just limited the ammo since in all my previous playthroughs that is what actually broke the game. When they made almost every house a dungeon with that stupid loot loaded metal trunk (hopefully you know what I am talking about) at the end I was ending up with chests full of ammo without ever crafting a single one, it wasn't that early 1 quality AK or LMG that broke the game, it was the fact that from day 7 or at worst 14 I could go absolutely ham with the ammo for for those weapons.

What is the point of quality 1 or 2 weapons anyway now when you can't even get them since its loot type limited to things like stone tools, bows, and blunderbuss? Wasn't the point of low quality weapons to be what limited you early on? It doesn't make sense. Then the last time I played through I had chests and chests of ammo but no weapon to shoot them because the loot was limited, then when I reached day 21 and got an AK (not from a trader since I was avoiding them but because gamestage finally caught up) I had literal mountains of ammo that I had stockpiled and the game lost all challenge since I could go absolutely crazy with all the ammo.

I say do what Chapelle said to do, make bullets expensive.

Duh? Are you sure you quoted the right person?

I wasn't talking about you or anyone's play style... why would you think that?
Oh all right my bad then, I thought in that context you were taking a jab at the looter type of playstyle and obviously took it personal (because as I said *points at self* loot goblin). My apologies.

 
If they ever implement the blueprints system they've talked about, this would be a great application of it.  The roaming food truck traders could provide a baseline: a way to have traders before any would-be trader bases are ready for them to move in.

It does seem boring that the "special missions" don't have you running goods from one trader to the other.  I mean, relaying the message that "Our Dukes are shiny" really sounds like a placeholder.  Surely that'll be replaced with, say, delivering White River supplies from one trader to the other.  Those are already implemented in a way that you don't have to worry about the player stealing them to re-sell or use themselves.
I would prefer a system where you actually could steal the items (and they should be good ones) at the expense of keeping the trader happy or even trading with you.  Perhaps not being able to trade with that trader for a week or increasing the cost of future purchases until the money is made back by the trader + some percentage.

Just think there is more you could do there.  You get in a tight spot and think, well I *could* use that ak the trader is having me deliver but it is gona cost me.

 
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