PC Traders and quests need to be nerfed

A

aamatniekss

New member
Hey!
So traders are kinda insane and the quests in particular even more so, they can completely annihilate any progression in the game. Example -
im day 3 in my game, im quite enjoying collecting the magazines and getting the ability to craft better stuff as I go, the progression feels good! 
The best tools I can craft now are level 3 stone tools. I was doing quests for the traders, and on a tier 2 quest rewards I got offered a iron axe level 4, i thought ok, that's a bit OP, but i'll take it, iron vs stone is not such a huge difference it's the next step, ill have to work a bit more on my tool skills to match up the crafting to it. Next quest I get a iron shovel level 3. Which is still not so bad since it's just iron. But next quest still tier 2, i get a steel pickaxe level 4, wait what, I couldnt even  make a pickaxe yet at all, and Im already at steel 4, in tier 2? That's not right at all. 
And this same way for everything, every single upgrade i have gotten a whole tier better weapon, or tool from quest rewards. I think the rewards should be severely limited to tiers of the quest.
Proposed fix:
Limit item qualities you can get depending on tier of the quest, it could go something like this, with probably some tweaking -
Tier 1 quest - only give iron 1-2 tools and equivalents for weapons as maximum for tier 1.
tier 2 quest - only give iron tools 3-5 and equivalents
tier 3 quest - only give steel 1-2
Tier 4 quest - only give steel 3-5

tier 5 quest - machine tools 1-2

tier 6 - machine tools 3-5. 

keeping level 6 tools and weapons all only for crafting, since the progression system really is fun, but at the moment there is absolutely no point to it. Im even contemplating not doing trader bartering and quests at all next playthroughs, since it completely destroys the progression and makes it too easy.

P.S I had no skill points into anything like better bartering or anything that has anything to do with traders.

 
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That´s still OP. With the current meta of looting, looting and even more looting you are on T3 quests super fast. It should start at T4 with steel and equivalents. If not even at T5 tbh.

 
The reason it isn't based solely on tier is because doing so is too OP.  Instead, it bases it on your game stage and other things (as well as tier) so that if you're powering through quests quickly, you aren't going to get the best stuff as fast.  You'd have a more unbalanced rewards if you based it solely on the tier of the quest.  This doesn't mean the rewards can't be balanced more.

 
pApA^LeGBa said:
That´s still OP. With the current meta of looting, looting and even more looting you are on T3 quests super fast. It should start at T4 with steel and equivalents. If not even at T5 tbh.
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Yeah, I agree it might still be too OP the way I suggested,  but i definitely think it should be limited somehow more

 
Riamus said:
The reason it isn't based solely on tier is because doing so is too OP.  Instead, it bases it on your game stage and other things (as well as tier) so that if you're powering through quests quickly, you aren't going to get the best stuff as fast.  You'd have a more unbalanced rewards if you based it solely on the tier of the quest.  This doesn't mean the rewards can't be balanced more.
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Yeah in my current game I use clubs for my melee weapon and on day 8 I was given a ql 5 steel club for a trader reward, or a ql 5 steel pickaxe, I took the club since I could already craft ql 4 steel pickaxe's, the problem is now I have almost my best melee weapon for my build and its on day 8. Only thing better would be finding a ql 6 one. As vanilla has nothing left after steel. I personally usually get bored by day 8 or 9 in vanilla because by them I am so overpowered I can 2 shot most zombies with normal swings on warrior difficulty with my perked melee weapon. The game scales far FAR to slowly to support how fast you get strong resulting in the game just getting boring by day 8 or 9 even on warrior difficulty as the zombies are still mostly nothing but fodder. Even in t4 clear quests I might get a single feral in the entire poi. Ferals are about the right things for my chars power level at this point. I got 7 str and pummel pete 4.  Radiated would be above my current power level but, I am pretty much nearly capped out for melee by day 8 so... its why many people say they need a tier above steel finally, and maybe some higher tier zombies to go with it.

Imo 7dtd hasn't gone anywhere really in 4+ years other than visuals. Its why I turned to mods, as mods actually take the game places since the devs seem to have no interest in doing so anymore or at least this is what it feels like.

As for the steel tools, thats not that op, if your a str build, I can usually craft qual 3-4 steel tools by the time they are commonly in quests. harvesting tool mags seem to be fairly easy to find. Maybe the trader is balanced assuming you have max stat and perks to determine what it can give you for a quest reward? Its hard to say, as some magazines are much harder to find period as their main sources are just far rarer.

 
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aamatniekss said:
Proposed fix:
Limit item qualities you can get depending on tier of the quest, it could go something like this, with probably some tweaking -
Tier 1 quest - only give iron 1-2 tools and equivalents for weapons as maximum for tier 1.
tier 2 quest - only give iron tools 3-5 and equivalents
tier 3 quest - only give steel 1-2
Tier 4 quest - only give steel 3-5

tier 5 quest - machine tools 1-2

tier 6 - machine tools 3-5. 
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Solves nothing and makes it only worse. At the current state of the auger and the chainsaw, why bothering about machine parts. They are not better than steel tools, but need fuel and cause screamer problems.

It also don't solve the endless stream of dukes.

I think a better way might be to remove the automatic money reward and add them as a fith option. Also should daring adventurer at lvl 4 be changed so it gives automatically the fifth reward option the dukes and only one choice of option 1 to 4.

 
I agree they are OP and need a big nerf. I don't think traders should offer weapons or tools as a reward at all, maybe just parts. You should mainly be crafting and looting stuff and should only be able to buy weapons and tools slightly better than what you would craft and they could be fairly expensive. Otherwise, I think you should use the traders a lot for resources and stuff like duct tape.

 
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A partial fix for Daring Adventurer might be that instead of a traderstage buff some (not all) DA levels would just add a quality level to any weapon, tool or armor. So if everyone else would get a quality 3 iron axe from a quest the player perked into DA would get offered a quality 4 or 5 iron axe.

Though I don't know, maybe if they just balance the traderstage buff correctly then the result might be the same (?). But with the fixed quality boost the advantage is a lot easier to understand for the player.

 
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meganoth said:
A partial fix for Daring Adventurer might be that instead of a traderstage buff some (not all) DA levels would just add a quality level to any weapon, tool or armor. So if everyone else would get a quality 3 iron axe from a quest the player perked into DA would get offered a quality 4 or 5 iron axe.

Though I don't know, maybe if they just balance the traderstage buff correctly then the result might be the same (?). But with the fixed quality boost the advantage is a lot easier to understand for the player.
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DA isn´t the whole problem. Even without Daring Adventurer you get high tier items way too early.

 
How many quests do you do per day, if I may ask? The way it looks to me, people push through the quest tiers and then wonder why the balancing fails.

 
RipClaw said:
How many quests do you do per day, if I may ask? The way it looks to me, people push through the quest tiers and then wonder why the balancing fails.
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My impression is: In single player clearing POIs with quest gives about 3 times as much value as clearing it without quest. When playing in a 4 player group that factor seems more like 5 times as much.

My gut feeling is that most players would have enough incentive to do quests even with a factor as low as 1.3 or 1.5. But with such overwhelming odds the only reasons not to do quests are meta-reasons like "I don't like the quest loop" or "I want a slower progression and not questing is needed for this". In my group game we like to do quests, and some of us don't like the slow progression especially in the stone age, so neither meta-reason really applies to us.

Preferably the game should be well enough balanced that the decision to loot a nearby house instead of treking back to the trader would be a rationally valid decision from time to time (i.e. "ok, I will not get as much value out of it, but I save some time, it gets near evening and I need stuff I can get from that house"). With a factor of 3 or 5 that is never ever possible.

 
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meganoth said:
Preferably the game should be well enough balanced that the decision to loot a nearby house instead of treking back to the trader would be a rationally valid decision from time to time
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That, or we could have something, anything, else that's also somehow required to be done. Mining for coal for the water filters, hunting for animals for their meat. Those would not fix the current mess, but.. something.

At the moment it's just backwards; even if you Want to do something else (build a massive base (tools), explore (vehicles)), well, you'll get better at those mostly via the traders as well. So, what else is there to do ..? :)

 
meganoth said:
My impression is: In single player clearing POIs with quest gives about 3 times as much value as clearing it without quest. When playing in a 4 player group that factor seems more like 5 times as much.
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That could be tested. Simply loot the same POI twice. Once without the quest activated and once with the quest activated. Throw the loot into a box after each run and compare them afterwards.

I know for a fact that the gamestage is boosted during an Infestation quest but I never paid attention to whether the lootstage will be boosted as well.

 
RipClaw said:
How many quests do you do per day, if I may ask? The way it looks to me, people push through the quest tiers and then wonder why the balancing fails.
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With our 4 man group we do about 2-3 quests per day. While 2 of us kill the zombies the other 2 loot and pillage (wrenching, shoveling, etc).

 
RipClaw said:
How many quests do you do per day, if I may ask? The way it looks to me, people push through the quest tiers and then wonder why the balancing fails.
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I mean that´s exactly what TFP want´s you to do, so the balancing should be accordingly to it. They did the skill and water changes to make you go looting all day and ofc the majority will use quests to do so.

 
pApA^LeGBa said:
I mean that´s exactly what TFP want´s you to do, so the balancing should be accordingly to it. They did the skill and water changes to make you go looting all day and ofc the majority will use quests to do so.
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The reasons they told us are different and sound believable (to me). If you think they are lying or not telling us all reasons you should at least mention that this is your conjecture and not a fact.

I think Madmole has said on occaison that they want people to go out and loot, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the skill and water changes were done for this reason.

 
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As you said, he said it multiple time over the years and now we get two changes that make exactly that happen that do not benefit anything else to the game. And no removing glass jars only for the purpose of not having them in the game is no logic step on it´s own. Who tf cares if this serves the uniformity with acid and gas? Players don´t and critics won´t either.

Same for the magazines, they don´t really chnage the game other than the way you get  your crafting skills and that stay at home players are punished.

 
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RipClaw said:
That could be tested. Simply loot the same POI twice. Once without the quest activated and once with the quest activated. Throw the loot into a box after each run and compare them afterwards.

I know for a fact that the gamestage is boosted during an Infestation quest but I never paid attention to whether the lootstage will be boosted as well.
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Great men think alike 😁. The same test occured to me, though double dipping is not necessary as I am sure you find the same stuff in a POI whether it was created in RWG or after a quest reset. So I would just do a quest and compare loot with loot+reward

Another test could do the same with infestations quests though, it might be different.

 
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