PC Trader and economy balance thread

I think first of all you need to limit the money at the traders so they can have limit on how much they can pay overall for items. I mean at the current state of vendors its really easy to become rich, and easy to exploit the traders. At the moment they can accept 3 piece from any single items or 3 stack from stackable anything. And they pay for everything like they have endless amount of money. When you are able to craft Augers, with level 3 trading perk you can sell them for around 21K or something. You can sell 3 of them per vendor, my current server world have 3 traders around my base within 300m. You know, i earned like ~160K on the first day after i was able to craft Augers. Since then, the money gathering bacame pointless.

Traders need to have better diversity in their stocks, maybe they can be specialized vendors like one selling/buying weapons and ammos only, other vendor selling/buying only armors, third vendor selling/buying only tools, 4th only selling/buying only building materials etc. Or have them a bit mixed but still specialized. So specialized vendors can pay better prices than other vendors for items what interests them. And at least make an option for adjusting money and stock limit for vendors (options like: Endless money (like current state) and very high amount of stock - low wealth and stock - medium wealth and stock - high wealth/rich vendors) what is refreshed to variabled amounts (within a rasonable range) with every re-stock days, thats urgent, to prevent players to become rich very early, and the money can gain much more importance.

 
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So you want the player to chop trees for 10 Hours and then as reward he get a meal, a bit fuel and a Q1 Pickaxe ?Sorry cant share this thought.

If a player choose to focus on becoming rich why shouldnt he. Others build fortresses in the meantime, or loot Pois.

With the changes MM stated i guess the balance is maybe fine
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Well, if a player can do anything to get rich, then doing something dangerous has no point. This is about Economy, so things that are hard to make or dangerous to get, should be expensive and the player should get richer than someone who attacks trees all day.

Its a better game my way. (That sounds so arrogant, so please think of a better way I should have said that) :)

 
Its a better game my way. (That sounds so arrogant, so please think of a better way I should have said that) :)
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like "I will teach you how you have to to have fun"

XD

No all fine :)

I get your point, and i dont say its wrong, only wrong enough that i dont want to share your opinion 1:1

until now the "world" killed me 10 times more than zombies

 
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Different traders have different goods they specialize in. Give ppl a reason to go and actively find them all.
  • 1 trader has 80% mostly food/med supplies and 20% general goods.
  • 1 trader has 80% mostly ammo and guns, 20% general.
  • 1 trader has 80% mostly building supplies, 20% general.
  • 1 trader has 80% clothing/armor goods, 20% general.
  • 1 trader IS a general goods trader and has equal amounts available for everything.


All traders have a quest to travel to the other trader locations like:

  • The general goods trader has a quest to go to the Foodie trader.
  • The foodie trader has a quest to go to the building supply trader.
  • The building supply trader has a quest to go to the Armor trader.
  • The armor trader has a quest to go to the weapon/ammo trader.
  • The weapon/ammo trader has a quest to go to the general goods trader.


heh, kinda like gup said and it has a built in balance just by goods available that each shop mostly deals in.
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I know lots of people already agree, but +1 for this.

Maybe, even, it is sufficient to make this easy to mod in. The XML is probably not too bad, but new trader POIs seem to be difficult to make, from what little I've read.

 
Its not hard to mod that (so far i know)

But would you like to drive all 2 days over the half map to look what the tool guy has who settles in the opposing corner than the Weapon guy ?

 
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Simple Economy:

-Every item has an initial Base price and initial stock level.

-Every trader has an initial 50% mark up to items they sell and a 50% undercut they buy from the player. That can be reduced no lower than 20% by player perks

-Every time a player sells something the base price will be devalued by .01% of the total value of that transaction.

-Every time a player buys something the base price will increase by .02% of the total value of the transactions. (to simulate inflation).

-Every 7 days all prices adjust by %10 closer to their initial base price and stocks are reduced/increased by 10% closer to their initial stock levels.

Note: The lowest value of an item would be 20% of it's initial value. At that level the trader doesn't want to buy any more for that week.

Done! :)

 
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Selling augers for 160k ... That's a result of the conflicting attempts to sell gating items, without a mechanism to set a "gating price".

What's the "actual" price of a pickaxe? 20 forged metal, 10 wood. Plus a minute or two of workstation time, which is essentially free.

If you want to "gate" the pickaxe and just set the price higher, the people making the pickaxes will surely be happy. Their metal, and thus time mining is worth a lot more. If you set it high enough, to actually hurt for gating, it becomes highly profitable to just buy the materials straight off the trader and sell the product.

Add the fact that quality levels play a massive role in price, and that crafters will always be making at least higher tiers than is lootable (how many level 2 weapons have you found, how many level 2 steel picks have you made?)

There's no way to avoid this without adding a gating price mechanism of some sort. Essentially, if gating items are to be sold at high price, they need a separate markup price.

Maybe add a "Special of the day" section with triple the markups... that might require some changes to the barter mechanics

A "Tool vending machine" would probably be easier to implement, that would be a vendor with high overall markup, but doesn't buy anything.

 
Simple Economy:
-Every item has an initial Base price and initial stock level.

-Every trader has an initial 50% mark up to items they sell and a 50% undercut they buy from the player. That can be reduced no lower than 20% by player perks

-Every time a player sells something the base price will be devalued by .01% of the total value of that transaction.

-Every time a player buys something the base price will increase by .02% of the total value of the transactions. (to simulate inflation).

-Every 7 days all prices adjust by %10 closer to their initial base price and stocks are reduced/increased by 10% closer to their initial stock levels.

Note: The lowest value of an item would be 20% of it's initial value. At that level the trader doesn't want to buy any more for that week.

Done! :)
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Agree, that's as close as you would get to balancing the economy + the specialist traders concept.

Emphasis on total value of transaction.

It's nearly impossible to balance though, with the player being able to sell anything in a game with so many infinite item sources. Even with item-specific diminishing returns based on total transaction value for that item, they will always overwhelm any sinks in real gameplay. Perhaps category-specific diminishing returns would do it. Or an Underrail-style of traders buying only specific items or specific item categories and changing their needs every now and then (combined with the above).

 
More complex Economy (Add to simple Economy):

Each map has a initial number of living people, using the percent of forest biome in the formula.

Each 7 days, the number of living will be adjusted mostly based on number of zombies killed and the price of food items.

Each living person will add a supply (random) and demand (mostly food) to the traders stocks.

 
Agree, that's as close as you would get to balancing the economy + the specialist traders concept. Emphasis on total value of transaction.

It's nearly impossible to balance though, with the player being able to sell anything in a game with so many infinite item sources. Even with item-specific diminishing returns based on total transaction value for that item, they will always overwhelm any sinks in real gameplay. Perhaps category-specific diminishing returns would do it. Or an Underrail-style of traders buying only specific items or specific item categories and changing their needs every now and then (combined with the above).
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I thought about that and each transaction would be a max of one stack. If that stack would lower the base price below 20% it would be rejected with a "That's too much for me!" kind of message.

 
I thought about that and each transaction would be a max of one stack. If that stack would lower the base price below 20% it would be rejected with a "That's too much for me!" kind of message.
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True, that would be a protective layer and makes absolute sense.

Still, with so many craftable items, really valuable items that stack, items that don't stack at all etc etc, I would bet my own balls that there would still be dozens of loopholes that will eventually make currency irrelevant.

How about if your concept for a cap is applied by traders only having specific amount of currency they can give to the seller - their own budget - and limited supplies to a buyer. Combined with most of the previous restrictions.

If am not mistaken they do have limited supplies of items now (I never use the traders, don't remember), but it needs tuning. And with proper tuning (and all these changes) trader perks will become invaluable.

More complex Economy (Add to simple Economy):
Each map has a initial number of living people, using the percent of forest biome in the formula.

Each 7 days, the number of living will be adjusted mostly based on number of zombies killed and the price of food items.

Each living person will add a supply (random) and demand (mostly food) to the traders stocks.
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I actually find this an excellent idea and that's the first or second time I've said that in these forums (excluding the times I say it to myself! :p ). It will be a little problematic immersion-wise that you can't actually see the population, but a stat for "state population" for the number of living in the general area or something, could add a lot to the game in more ways than just the economy if the player can influence that number in various ways and it in turn influencing various world elements like spawning, loot, maybe even GS etc and like you said, economy. Best next thing to colonies.

 
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How about if your concept for a cap is applied by traders only having specific amount of currency they can give to the seller - their own budget - and limited supplies to a buyer. Combined with most of the previous restrictions.
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And there's the final piece I believe! Something TFP will need to decide: how much cash is floating around a map.

Now if we could only solve the real world's economic problems :)

 
You know that we talk about TFP here. The masters of exagerations.

How can you make such suggestions during we wait for a minor patch.

With a bit unluck the traders will now have only 3 Coins between 17.2 and A18

:jaded:

Dear TFP if Trader should have a max amount of money

8 Player on 5 trader and the ability to buy a auger at end of week 2 for everyone + a bit other stuff

5 trader * 3 Day Restock * 4 times = 60

8 player * 45 000 Coins = 360 000 Coins

= 360 000 / 60 = 6000 Coins every trader need after each respawn or you gate the auger one time more.

(Whats that then quadrogated ? no at least pentagated, or hexagated ?)

If at all such a balance need a serious Buff for the dropped money amount

 
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As for role playing, if you want to roleplay as a scavenger who sells what he scavenges, shouldn't your perks be grouped together? As in Lucky Looter is in Perception while Better Barter is in Intellect. Maybe figure out a way to get them in the same category. Not sure if other professions could use different groupings as well. Just my 2 cents

 
Simple Economy:
-Every item has an initial Base price and initial stock level.

-Every trader has an initial 50% mark up to items they sell and a 50% undercut they buy from the player. That can be reduced no lower than 20% by player perks

-Every time a player sells something the base price will be devalued by .01% of the total value of that transaction.

-Every time a player buys something the base price will increase by .02% of the total value of the transactions. (to simulate inflation).

-Every 7 days all prices adjust by %10 closer to their initial base price and stocks are reduced/increased by 10% closer to their initial stock levels.

Note: The lowest value of an item would be 20% of it's initial value. At that level the trader doesn't want to buy any more for that week.

Done! :)
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Balance or no balance, this is a cool idea.

 
As for role playing, if you want to roleplay as a scavenger who sells what he scavenges, shouldn't your perks be grouped together? As in Lucky Looter is in Perception while Better Barter is in Intellect. Maybe figure out a way to get them in the same category. Not sure if other professions could use different groupings as well. Just my 2 cents
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You'll have enough points to go deep into INT and PER if you want to play like that. Plus a scavenger's probably going to want to make vehicles for his loot.

 
You'll have enough points to go deep into INT and PER if you want to play like that. Plus a scavenger's probably going to want to make vehicles for his loot.
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Exactly, hence Lucky Looter should be in Perception. I think related perks should be grouped together. TFP has stated the perks allow for role playing so why not sort them in that manner. I’m a fan of the current perks, I just think some tweaking of organization needs to be done. I’m comfortable with the other perk categories for the most part but perception & intelligence needs some rethinking. I know there are plenty of points to go around and my post was unrelated to points. If perks = roleplaying then how they are organized should represent that. I’m sure that it can’t & won’t be perfect for every role someone wants to play but there is room for tweaking where perks are located.

 
Ok,after a lot of thought I decided to post my own opinion. I honestly got so excited reading the "role playing merchant" thing . Since I have already experienced being a doctor on a forum-based role playing zombie apocalypse game called Dead Frontier I know that if you TRULY want to have a role playing trading experience you have to implement classes!

First things first,as you said you need to balance the traders.

-First buff selling prices for iron and its byproducts. It used to be 1:1 ratio higher than what the current ratio is,which is lower than rock and wood.

-Secondly you need to buff the burning time of the gas compared to wood. I've personally used both campfires and generators and I know that a barrel of oil connected to a generator would last as much as multiple tones of wood. Afterall it's basic physics.Oil has much more concentrated potential energy compared to plywood.

-Also the 3 stack item limits *on certain categories* needs to be COMPLETELY removed. These categories are:

-Gas

-Food

-Raw materials

-Ammunition

-Medical stuff

As classes are concerned that's how you turn the game into a real role playing scenario. There will be ammo crafters ,blacksmiths ,farmers ,doctors ,tailors,teachers, exchanging commodities! This could work AMAZING on a multiplayer server . I know because I've already played as a top doctor and made lots of money selling amazing bandages and other medical stuff. Even when there were classes crafting end game legendary items EVERYONE had a role into the end game. The farmers would make super high quality ever lasting recipes that would not only last for days but also give huge buffs. The doctors would give super medicine like steroids . Iirc there were even classes of teachers to provide you with experience on how to handle certain things!

You could certainly add the following ONE time class perk:

-Teacher : Can craft schematics and provide extra experience for the team.

-Cook: Can cook any food using half the ingrendients (or produces twice the amount of food). Can produce food that buffs stats.

-Blacksmith: Can craft legendary quality weapons.

-Tailor: can craft any clothing item like duster with extra item slots.

-Farmer: Gets twice the amount of resources from farming . Can also use harvester (can turn the 4x4 track into a harvester for automatically farming and plowing the land ,red alert style)

-Doctor: Can craft any medical item cheaper and can also create steroids.

You can add more classes if you like which would of course break the balance of the game *but would add so much more fun*. A realistic scenario is where every class empowers every other class in a PVE server but are not necessary required (so as to not break the single player experience).

The possibilities are truly endless.

 
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+1 to locating other traders such as by finding a map. Obviously other Traders don't want to reveal the location of competition!

-1 to having traders specialize in a product in the current state of the game with the lack of traders.

I wouldn't mind so much if they just simply add these specialty stores without adjusting the regular traders.

 
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