PC Trader and economy balance thread

[Katitof]

Hey guys and gals, I am working on making traders and the economy as good as possible and need your input. My goals are:
1.) Support all play styles, so non crafters can get what they need.

For this let me know if there are any items or resources sorely missing from trader inventory.

3.) Perk balance. Are the trading perks too good? I typically get by without them so maybe they are OP?

These two are directly connected.

Base traders offer some stuff, but that stuff is hardly useful or even decent quality.

If you want to make actual money and buy items that are actually needed if you're not dumping points into int, you NEED barter perk, no other way around it, you just have to have it and if you have best armor, weapons and mods, you HAVE to spec into full barter, which means you need 10 int, which means you might as well just pick the perks and craft the stuff yourself. That sadly goes for every singular craftable item.

While it is logical to have all crafting behind int, its also a massive problem, because if you want to do anything crafting wise, you have to spec for it and you can't even rely on buying that stuff, because again, you have to go full int anyway.

From my observations, the price between 0/5 barter and full barter is IMMENSE and while you may get something nice in secret stash with 0 points, you almost always get something great with 5 and the price drop together with higher selling price is just too good to pass.

As it is now, you are always forced to spec into int, regardless if you want to craft items yourself or not.

Not being able to get better vehicle then a minibike and said minibike being pretty damn terrible(due to lack of vehicle mods I assume) is also a factor pushing people into enough int to at least get a hog.

 

[crossed]

This is important because really 7DtD should define what role Traders serve. Are the RP Quest Givers? Are they one-stop Walmarts that have everything a players needs? Are they old fantasy styled Inns, offering a safe place for a price. Are they meant to bypass mechanics that players find annoying/challenging/unfun?

This is what I was thinking reading the OP. You can pretty much bypass the survival aspect of the game using vending machines and traders so they're pretty op... unless that's their supposed role, then they work as intended, some items could be even more common (seeds, brass, acid, oil, ammo...)

I don't see how is it possible to balance the game for every playstyle (including being a lumberjack and such) without throwing any sort of challenge right out the window, so as others before I'd also like to ask for options to turn off vending machines and/or traders if possible.

I know we already have the option to ignore them but it really breaks immersion..

 

[Weazelsun]

Much like Guppy suggested, I have to agree with it. Continue with the different specialized goods that traders are meant to look like they would have. So for example Trader Jen could have a good amount of medical/ science goods while Trader Bob who looks to be like a mechanic type could have a good amount of mechanical/scrap/ goods related to making vehicles or building resources, etc. Also crafted goods should sell more if they take more resources to make and/ or be favored to bought by specific traders. I also like the idea of having a unique quest that could be done once every 7 days or even a year in-game to gather specific items or resources for the traders.

 

[iejen]

I'd like to see more traders anyway.

If we focus on building a settlement why not have traders live in settlements?

They could life in a small camp with an armor salesman, weapon salesman, resource salesman and doctor.

It will give the game a more alive feeling.

Now we have Joe, the man who sells it all!

Also where do the traders sleep ?

In the bedroll underneath?

 

[iBane]

Are you saying the same goods at a different trader have a difference in price?
With the upcoming blood moon optoins (every day,3,7,10,14,30,random, never) a person can role play more freely and aren't forced into horde night inevitable destruction. So being a rogue traveler with just a few shacks to stay in here and there should be viable, or just a guy with a basic brick fort should be able to withstand a few wandering hordes or heat map hordes. Of course you can scavenge concrete mix now so a small concrete base is definitely doable early game now.

Beakers at traders might be a nice addition. They seem rare to find at the moment...I'm LV 50 currently (not level grinding) and haven't seen a beaker yet at a trader, in loot, or in an air drop.

- - - Updated - - -

I increased the chance for rare medicine group, which includes beakers. I think more are in 17.1 loot than before too.

Is this tied to game stage? At level 50 with at least a couple of points into better barter I rarely see medical items at traders and have not seen a beaker ever. Medical does seem to frequently be a quest reward option, but no beakers so far.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll ask around, if its still possible I'll definitely put it in.

I agree traders are setup nicely in 17.1. Don't have everything I want and I don't have endless amounts of Dukes, but lot's of useful stuff to by and tough choices to make.

 

[RipClaw]

Is this tied to game stage? At level 50 with at least a couple of points into better barter I rarely see medical items at traders and have not seen a beaker ever. Medical does seem to frequently be a quest reward option, but no beakers so far.

I think it refers to the lootcontainer which can contain medical items like the bathroom mirror or the medicine cabinets in the Pop-N-Pills.

In 17.1, these should more frequently contain items like first aid kits or beakers.

 

[Laz Man]

Joel, any thought about adding a gambling function to the trader?

Once you get rich, it's a nice coin sink at a chance at something good.

A good example of this is the gambler in diablo 2 where you see the type of item but dont know the quality/rarenest.

 

[Laz Man]

This is what I was thinking reading the OP. You can pretty much bypass the survival aspect of the game using vending machines and traders so they're pretty op... unless that's their supposed role, then they work as intended, some items could be even more common (seeds, brass, acid, oil, ammo...)
I don't see how is it possible to balance the game for every playstyle (including being a lumberjack and such) without throwing any sort of challenge right out the window, so as others before I'd also like to ask for options to turn off vending machines and/or traders if possible.

I know we already have the option to ignore them but it really breaks immersion..

Maybe a better setting is item scarcity instead of turning them off. They do add quests which I feel adds to the gameplay.

 

[Reth]

To MM: as others have mentioned, you need to define the exact role you want traders to play.

Should traders be able to completely replace:

• crafting by selling tools/weapons/vehicles?
  
• mining and wood cutting by offering all materials in sufficient quantities?
  
• farming and food gathering/preparation by selling enough food/drinks?
  
• PoI exploration by offering rare mods and other rare loot?
  

As we all know, being a lumberjack is OK, of course, but it is hardly a viable SP survival scenario. My personal preference would be for traders to supplement all the activities above, not replace them.

 

[crossed]

Maybe a better setting is item scarcity instead of turning them off. They do add quests which I feel adds to the gameplay.

Sure, I really like the quests, and an option to keep the traders just make them less op would be great if they're willing to put more effort into it, I'm just not sure they are (or that they should) so I asked for the simplest solution

 

[Jan2607]

My thoughts about it:

I never used trader skills in A17. I got enough money and there are so many more important things to spend points. There was no high priority for it. But I have to say that I never played farther than around day 16 yet. If you level up and need to buy good quality items from the trader, it could be a different story.

The trader quests show, how far away they are, but not in which direction. But it makes a huge difference if I want to accept that quest in which direction it is (when I'm 2 km away from my base and the quest is in the opposite direction even more far away, it is not worth it). Maybe it should roughly state the direction (for example north or southwest...).

Some stuff is sold in to few quantities, especially resources like brass, nitrate powder or coal.

The secret stash is not interesting enough in my opinion. It rarely has really rare items and never something I need.

But my most important thought is about trader placing in RWG: Sometimes they are clustered in one spot or in only one region. It can be really hard to find traders sometimes (apart from the one you have to travel because of the quest). They definetely should spread more over the world.

 

[Noompsie]

price of meat is fine. It's mainly the newly spawned player that needs it and he doesnt have the coins to spend too much on it.

I hate the idea of traders specializing. RNG is a female dog and who knows where the traders will be placed. Firstly you have to find them all, and secondly they could all be on the opposite side of the map to your spawn area. I think I would totally ignore the traders if this was implemented.

I do like the idea of trader quests, taking goods from one trader to another. Great way to bring all the traders in a game out.

 

[Noompsie]

The biggest issue with traders at this point is, that after selling Steel stuff, Augers, Chainsaws for 20 days you can buy nearly all items that exist in the game. There is absolutely NO reason to go looting except if it makes fun for you. Also why bother with quests. And you get XP fastest by mining atm.
I'd rather have player trading economy and completely remove Traders from the Game. Turn them into Quest Npcs...

Then you need to meet people, do quests for stuff and loot buildings instead of mining 25000 iron and craft 12 Steel axes, pickaxes, shovels, machetes every other day and buy the world.

If your at the point in your game where you can craft and sell steel stuff, augers, chainsaws etc, then your at endgame and in my opinion probably playing on past the point where a lot of players have quit and started a new playthrough. I personally have never got to crafting augers before i get bored with the game and start over.

 

[madmole]

I was talking about in combination with the traders. You do continue to get more as you progress through the POI, but to really maintain the gains you have 5 traders to utilize. Ammo is continually gained using both the traders AND the POIs together. It also depends on what ammo you're using - the most common drop is 9mm - the second most common is shotgun. (But you're also accumulating brasss, paper, nitrate powder and gun powder as you run through them) Those should be the two weapons you use and you alternate. Leave the 7.62 for horde night. Go through a POI with a MP5 or Pistol and you'll accumulate some shotgun and some 9mm mostly as you progress through it and as you get to the stash. You'll have more shotgun ammo than when you started - and maybe less 9mm than when you started. No biggie - go to the next POI and this time just use the shotgun - repeat - repeat - go to the 1st trader and sell all the valuable loot you got - then buy all of his ammo, his casings, his nitrate powder, his coal, his paper repeat again with trader #2, and so on and so forth- and tell me you don't have MORE ammo...if you don't...I don't know man..you gotta aim better I guess

You have a min/maxer/play to win mindset. This isn't how to role play at all. I use one firearm exclusively and perk up in it so that it's effective. You don't need to lug around a bunch of guns then and one perked up gun is better than 3 unperked IMO. I sell every other ammo type I'm not using for the build back to the trader.

As I mentioned, we're trying to support role players a little more. If I just want to play a wasteland scavver who quests for the traders and turn horde night zombies off, in an upcoming build I'll be able to do so. When bandits are added and more quest types become available this will be a fun way to enjoy the game. On the same token minecraft lovers will be able to build massive forts and not worry about getting overrun. And if your hardcore, turn on hordes every night Anyhow, its going to be interesting. Your concerns seem best addressed by fixing loot abundance.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

Everyone is talking about the lack of beakers, yet I'm getting them as an option in the quest rewards quite frequently. (as in almost all of them). That was a 240->B8 save, so could be it.

I like the idea of specialized traders though.

 

[Thecolours]

2.) Make it possible to make a living role playing.

Whether it be a lumberjack, a rock miner, a blacksmith, hunter, crafter selling his goods, scavenger selling things, I think you should be able to make a modest living. I'd want to know what trades are under powered and which ones are overpowered or not even supported.

What about having trader quests specific for role players?

Go to location X and harvest 1000 wood.

Smelt 100 steel.

Craft 10 iron pickaxes.

Collect 10 empty tin cans.

More unique quests like that.

 

[Tin]

price of meat is fine. It's mainly the newly spawned player that needs it and he doesnt have the coins to spend too much on it.
I hate the idea of traders specializing. RNG is a female dog and who knows where the traders will be placed. Firstly you have to find them all, and secondly they could all be on the opposite side of the map to your spawn area. I think I would totally ignore the traders if this was implemented.

I do like the idea of trader quests, taking goods from one trader to another. Great way to bring all the traders in a game out.

Disagree.. Traders having the bulk of their goods lean towards a certain category, is a good incentive in the early/mid game, to get players that use traders, out and exploring different areas of the map, so they eventually get the full range available.

Them having a Specialized set of goods they mostly sell, doesn't necessarily mean 'All' their goods would just be in one category.

Just so you know: the rwg of their placement, of poi in general, isn't even fully working right..

Also, What is wrong with some of them being placed on the opposite side of the map you spawned in?

Isn't the point of random is, so those that want it, can try to overcome not knowing where everything is at in the beginning?

 

[HungryZombie]

The biggest issue with traders at this point is, that after selling Steel stuff, Augers, Chainsaws for 20 days you can buy nearly all items that exist in the game. There is absolutely NO reason to go looting except if it makes fun for you. Also why bother with quests. And you get XP fastest by mining atm.
I'd rather have player trading economy and completely remove Traders from the Game. Turn them into Quest Npcs...

Then you need to meet people, do quests for stuff and loot buildings instead of mining 25000 iron and craft 12 Steel axes, pickaxes, shovels, machetes every other day and buy the world.

How can you have a player economy in a single player game?

 

[madmole]

I confirmed a massive bug where the first rank of better barter was way more than 10%. Its fixed already. I'd never used it because I got enough dukes questing, but wow I can see how rich people could get. Thanks for letting me know guys.

 

[RipClaw]

As I mentioned, we're trying to support role players a little more. If I just want to play a wasteland scavver who quests for the traders and turn horde night zombies off, in an upcoming build I'll be able to do so.

You should take a look at the "Ramblin Man" series from Glock9 on Youtube. He also does a series that he calls "Dishong Tower" and in which he himself has imposed the restriction that he doesn't leave Dishong Tower and only survives with what he finds in the building. I think both are very good examples of a role-playing game in 7 Days to Die.