warmer
Well-known member
It just affects damage done to player and done to zombies as a percentage of the default.
I believe easiest is 50% damage to player and 200% to Zeds and hardest is reversed 200% to player and 50% to zeds
PC Too many zombies in walls and ceilings
- Thread starter meilodasreh
- Start date
I believe easiest is 50% damage to player and 200% to Zeds and hardest is reversed 200% to player and 50% to zeds
It's not ruined, but it does perform noticeably worse than the other paths. Abusing triggers feels like a temporary solution to the problem behind difficulty.
I would argue to the contrary that require two power swings per zombie isn't a sponging, but common sense. It's the reason why the early game feels much more challenging even with irradiated and ferals later in the game. Once you are loaded with your weapons zombies become largely irrelevant unless you don't understand basic herding mechanics and don't lead them to chokepoints.
Me running in triggering a spawn then leading the zombies to the nearest chokepoint and blasting them with a shotgun, machine gun or even with a strong melee weapon after you thin the herd. It's more frustrating and immersion breaking to have zombies spawn right in front of you. If stealth is the reason behind trigger spawns then I would still argue that stealth is far inferior to traditional setups due to what you eluded to yourself, time. Stealth takes far more time to clear a POI and requires knowledge of the POI to a degree. I am not suggesting not make adjustments but, I don't think stealth is OP at all due to the requirements needed to perform well. It's similar to drone builds in that way. Drone builds can shred through zombies when done right but requires knowledge and foresight to setup properly and as such is largely ignored by many.
If you don't like larger HP pools and I don't like over-use of triggers then there are still ways to offset the balance end-game such as bandits. Being hit at range would make the game infinitely harder which is why people hate cops so much. I know the pathing would suck but having crawler zombies be able to utilize walls and ceilings would make the game more challenging as well as maybe giving irratiated zombies some radiation poisoning effects when they do the wasteland radiation changes.
I think we both agree we want a tougher game, but it's how they go about it which is important.
ElCabong
Well-known member
This forces me to avoid doing any infested mission until I have a 9 mm or an SMG because I'm faced with many high level zombies in a very narrow a place where I don't have much room to maneuver.
It's kind of ridiculous, I know the trap is there so i run in, set it off, then run back out and shoot them as they come to the door.
then fall back and reload and shoot some more.
It's kind of ridiculous, I know the trap is there so i run in, set it off, then run back out and shoot them as they come to the door.
then fall back and reload and shoot some more.
I haven't really noticed the infestations being any more difficult than the base POI they are in.
Since I frequently double-dip, I can tell you there don't seem to be any extra zeds. Maybe there should be and it is broken. Maybe it will get fixed next patch or so, but in the meantime It's a no-brainer, if an infested mission is available, take it over any others.
Also remember it is like doing a 1 tier higher mission at the lower difficulty, but getting extra loot and xp.
It will also take like half the time (especially at T5) than doing a normal POI for that level.
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The_Great_Sephiroth
New member
No change to experience though? See I am used to higher difficulties rewarding more exp. I assumed the zeds would be harder, but why do that if it's the same exp?
zztong
Well-known member
I get what you're saying, and I get that you're weighting the value of skills to your own goals and desires. My calculus is different. I have lots of skills that are worthless on horde night. I don't avoid farming and cooking because I can't do them on horde night. I don't get a lot out of my melee weapons on horde night but I need them at other times. I'm not making or driving vehicles during a horde night, but I'm going to want a motorcycle or a 4x4.
Stealth is an important tool for my POI-raiding toolbox and sometimes an interesting puzzle that is different than "rock-n-roll with a machine gun" and certainly more than "crouch-and-go" stealth. Arranging the circumstances where I can shake triggered zombies is still a technique I'm working to improve.
Well, I specified on "horde night", are you disputing that? It isn't my opinion or my goals and desires, it is a simple fact of the game.
The rest of what you said is perfectly valid if that is your play style, but it has nothing to do with my statement and I stand behind it.
The original concept was that zombies spawning inside walls and triggers being less immersive. I agree with that sentiment. The reason people are defending it is because they think it would make stealth OP.
I think that there are a few things to consider when coming to that conclusion.
#1) What is the relative worth of Agility over other paths such as Fortitue, Perception, Strength, etc
#2) In what ways would it be OP and if so how would one fix it
The first question is relativistic, however, I think that many would agree that the agility tree isn't a bad tree with Parkour being good and from the shadows and hidden strike being your bread and butter. Archery isn't bad for general POI clearing and a silenced pistol can be helpful as well and the SMG offers some well needed faster firing for those oh crap situations. Knives are weak due to bleed being generally weak. Light armor isn't bad as you have an armor path built into Agility, however, you will need the Ghille suit to perfect stealth regardless.
Considering all of that I would still suggest that Strength + Fortitude makes the best combination of perk paths out of all of them and they mesh very well together as compared to Agility and Fortitude or Agility and Strength or Agility and Perception, etc. But we can't say it's a bad path either since as a single path it covers almost entirely what you would want to be doing in the game comnbat-wise with armor options and two decent weapon paths.
The second question is also subjective, but we can look at a few things that combine to make the skillset useful. For starters the way in which zombies detect the player. Stealth is kinda hard to balance as it's a zero sum game. You are either stealthed or your not. The zombies can see you and react or they can't. If the zombies do not see you when crouched and moving at full speed as you cull the herd then that is what makes the path OP as you are nearly immune to danger. If the zombies do see you then archery and pistols/SMG as a path are generally worse in dealing with larger hordes or faster zombies as found in end-game POIs.
To balance I would reduce movement speed bonuses across the board slightly, being much less vulnerable to danger should come with a larger time to clear offset which makes sense. If you are taking your time to not get hit then it should logically take longer to clear POIs and progress in the game. It's a balanced tradeoff since time is valuable in this game to a large degree. I would also re-work sight values. I don't mind zombies not hearing you or smelling you in stealth but if you turn a corner and one is standing in front of you it should activate the zombie. Even with no points in stealth that has been an issue in 7D2D.
In this way you could clear many POIs with little issue outside of some zombies that spawn in areas that would cause them to see you such as being right around a tight turn in a POI. It gives players that want to actually play stealth be able to do so but with the tradeoff that you need general knowledge behind the POI and spawn locations and you have to take your time due to the combination of slower movement speed and reworked line of sight mechanics.
Furthermore, I think once the developers have roaming zombies within POIs (as I belive they stated as much) then it could take the place of many "triggers" and allow for a much more immersive experience where you are actually waiting for the zombie pathing, etc.
I don't think all triggers need to go, I think some are fine, but the over-use of them is what has effectively put quite the damper on Agility and stealth as a whole compared to A20 and to other skill trees in A21. It's fine if you spawn in a few behind the player or in the ceiling, but spawning them right in front of you on the floors when the room previously had nothing and coming out from walls is a bit stupid IMO. I think it's easier to balance a tradeoff with stealth than to force people into removing it completly, especially in the case of end-game POIs where the majority of spawns are trigger based and they send 10-12 zombies at you.
I think that there are a few things to consider when coming to that conclusion.
#1) What is the relative worth of Agility over other paths such as Fortitue, Perception, Strength, etc
#2) In what ways would it be OP and if so how would one fix it
The first question is relativistic, however, I think that many would agree that the agility tree isn't a bad tree with Parkour being good and from the shadows and hidden strike being your bread and butter. Archery isn't bad for general POI clearing and a silenced pistol can be helpful as well and the SMG offers some well needed faster firing for those oh crap situations. Knives are weak due to bleed being generally weak. Light armor isn't bad as you have an armor path built into Agility, however, you will need the Ghille suit to perfect stealth regardless.
Considering all of that I would still suggest that Strength + Fortitude makes the best combination of perk paths out of all of them and they mesh very well together as compared to Agility and Fortitude or Agility and Strength or Agility and Perception, etc. But we can't say it's a bad path either since as a single path it covers almost entirely what you would want to be doing in the game comnbat-wise with armor options and two decent weapon paths.
The second question is also subjective, but we can look at a few things that combine to make the skillset useful. For starters the way in which zombies detect the player. Stealth is kinda hard to balance as it's a zero sum game. You are either stealthed or your not. The zombies can see you and react or they can't. If the zombies do not see you when crouched and moving at full speed as you cull the herd then that is what makes the path OP as you are nearly immune to danger. If the zombies do see you then archery and pistols/SMG as a path are generally worse in dealing with larger hordes or faster zombies as found in end-game POIs.
To balance I would reduce movement speed bonuses across the board slightly, being much less vulnerable to danger should come with a larger time to clear offset which makes sense. If you are taking your time to not get hit then it should logically take longer to clear POIs and progress in the game. It's a balanced tradeoff since time is valuable in this game to a large degree. I would also re-work sight values. I don't mind zombies not hearing you or smelling you in stealth but if you turn a corner and one is standing in front of you it should activate the zombie. Even with no points in stealth that has been an issue in 7D2D.
In this way you could clear many POIs with little issue outside of some zombies that spawn in areas that would cause them to see you such as being right around a tight turn in a POI. It gives players that want to actually play stealth be able to do so but with the tradeoff that you need general knowledge behind the POI and spawn locations and you have to take your time due to the combination of slower movement speed and reworked line of sight mechanics.
Furthermore, I think once the developers have roaming zombies within POIs (as I belive they stated as much) then it could take the place of many "triggers" and allow for a much more immersive experience where you are actually waiting for the zombie pathing, etc.
I don't think all triggers need to go, I think some are fine, but the over-use of them is what has effectively put quite the damper on Agility and stealth as a whole compared to A20 and to other skill trees in A21. It's fine if you spawn in a few behind the player or in the ceiling, but spawning them right in front of you on the floors when the room previously had nothing and coming out from walls is a bit stupid IMO. I think it's easier to balance a tradeoff with stealth than to force people into removing it completly, especially in the case of end-game POIs where the majority of spawns are trigger based and they send 10-12 zombies at you.
EvilPolygons
Active member
Very much this.
I think roaming POI zombies are a feature that both players and prefab creators would love to see added to the game.
zztong
Well-known member
Nope. I'm not disputing it at all. I was saying the choices you make are based on your opinions, goals, desires and the facts.
I likely quoted that one point you made too closely, as I have seen people suggest that is a sole reason for why they thought stealth was worthless. You did have other reasons.
meilodasreh
New member
Huh?
Shouldn't this simply double the amount of zombie spawns? How could such a (seemingly) simple feature be broken for somebody.You have mods that could interfere with this?
Or maybe it's the "max alive" thing in the game options that limits it? ...well it shouldn't in this case, so one could call that "broken" then indeed.
That was the one part that wasn't my opinion, I don't know why you homed in on that, but you clearly didn't understand me.
I was just listing the pros and cons of the agility tree as I see them. I am a big fan of it and I have spent several alphas as a stealth primary build.
Huh?
You have mods that could interfere with this?
Or maybe it's the "max alive" thing in the game options that limits it? ...well it shouldn't in this case, so one could call that "broken" then indeed.
It is highly possible. Granted it is possible there are more and I just don't notice. I mean if I see a wandering horde passing me by I go chasing after them. Jumping up and down yelling "Kill! Kill! Kill!"
I have the headshot damage cranked up high enough to be 1 shot, 1 kill with pretty much any weapon so that does skew my perspective a bit I suppose.
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warmer
Well-known member
The_Great_Sephiroth
New member
I know, up to 300%. We sometimes do bonus exp weekends. I meant to the base exp. Based on all of my previous gaming experience, higher difficulties allow one to gain more experience. This may not be the case here and that is fine, but I didn't get an instruction booklet with 7 Days, unlike with Duck Hunt, so I am not sure what the difficulty messes with beyond buffing the player or the zeds.
It changes from build to build. We used to have a lot less options and so many things were coupled to difficulty.
I think XP might have been before there was the slider. Block damage also, that I remember since I was one of the main people pushing for it.
Probably more things that I can't remember offhand.
FramFramson
Well-known member
See, the thing about this is that we're all too impatient. If you wait long enough, the game turns into a Castlevania title, which conveniently turns the wall zombies into wall meat.