PC To fix stealth... nerf stealth?

Just did Higashi for the first time in A21.. 5/5 Sledges now, but still cleared a lot of it with a Comp Bow (quest reward). Still rolling a stone sledge; I made a Q5 Iron, but the damage isn't worth the slowness.. most things die on one with the stone-on-a-stick anyway.

But, for whoever designed the prison_02, my heartfelt, cold, sarcastic 'thanks, mate' .. Higashi was still Higashi, but I couldn't take it seriously. What's the point of clearing my corners when you're just going to spawn crap on me anyway, whenever you like. So I didn't. Took a few hits, blamed my now-blind-for-roleplaying-reasons character for it. Completely cheesed the final fight, yay.

 
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pottervogel said:
I hope not, that would kill the best part of the game (building whereever you want whatever you want)
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I tend to agree. And, along with that, the ability for players to prepare for, and overcome, obstacles and complications.

I could see other ways to deal with frames, if that really is considered a problem:

What if frames were automatically destroyed if the block below them were destroyed? Perhaps frames would only have one point of health?

What if frames were insubstantial? That is, you didn't spend a little wood making a frame. You would 3D design in "ghost" shapes and then have to construct the block to get a truly material block.

 
zztong said:
if that really is considered a problem:

What if frames were automatically destroyed if the block below them were destroyed? Perhaps frames would only have one point of health?

What if frames were insubstantial? That is, you didn't spend a little wood making a frame. You would 3D design in "ghost" shapes and then have to construct the block to get a truly material block.
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Highly depends on the problem you're trying to solve. The most common complaint is people getting on roofs to clear loot stashes. Neither of these would solve that.. you could build staircases/ladders etc.

Another potential complaint is nerdpoling out of danger.. immaterial start frames would solve that partially - you could still prep or just build fast. But I doubt that's an issue many want "fixed".

 
theFlu said:
Highly depends on the problem you're trying to solve. The most common complaint is people getting on roofs to clear loot stashes. Neither of these would solve that.. you could build staircases/ladders etc.

Another potential complaint is nerdpoling out of danger.. immaterial start frames would solve that partially - you could still prep or just build fast. But I doubt that's an issue many want "fixed".
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Agreed. Loot locations is the real issue, not building.

I'm of mixed feelings about nerd polling. I don't do it to instantly avoid danger, so I wouldn't miss that, but I think so many people use it that they would make the "water jars" revolt look small. At this point, people jumping up onto cubes is, to me, a 7D2D genre convention, like zombies standing on ceiling tiles or hiding in armoires.

But if you wanted to "solve it", I think there might be some neat options.

 
Alamarian said:
I think the most realistic solution would be to just remove stealth from the game. There's no shame in design by subtraction.

It's clear TFP has 100% stealthing of POIs on their "wrong play" list. I don't even think that they are wrong to target stealth because, as some have noted here, it can be downright OP. But their attempts to "combat" stealth through level design don't moderate stealth, they just kill it. It doesn't feel balanced. There are POIs you can stealth without issue and possibly with little skill investment, there are POIs you absolutely cannot stealth 100% with ANY amount of skill investment and there's also no way of knowing without diving in. So without a major overhaul, the only options are to leave stealth a haphazard mess or totally dump the stealth system. Maybe a bandaid fix of advertising which POIs are stealthable and which aren't, to at least keep players informed.

There are other solutions but they will require major rework to existing POIs and systems. Not sure it's a good investment at this point.
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First something you might not know: TFP developers have said that it is intentional that POIs often can't be stealthed 100%. By that they mean can not be cleared completely while staying in stealth ALL THE TIME! What is still possible in almost all POI's, even if sometimes difficult, is to leave stealth to run away and either gun down any zombies that manage to follow or restealth out of sight and then kill those zombies stealthed again.

I haven't played the new prison myself, it is possible it may be an exception to the rule but that doesn't invalidate the rule. It just means a POI designer got over-ambitious with placing his traps everwhere.

POI designers probably even design for stealth in mind, but may also fall into the trap of thinking too high of the observation power of the average player for example. According to one of the POI designers the new POIs have actually high ledges or similar stuff added to help (stealth) players survive those surprise attacks. 

And yesterday I cleared a POI that may have been tier3 or tier4 (center town, 3 adjoined buildings with restaurant, bookshop and a company headquarter, end loot in a garage).  I knew from before that the garage would have surprise zombies, but I suddenly saw a ladder in jump height attached to the wall that I think wasn't there in previous alphas(?). Is that supposed to be a hint? Don't know, but it is also one way to survive this, no matter what spec you are. I didn't even use the ladder, by the way. I had prepared to run back up the building to a safe spot. And I didn't even need that for the zombies in the room because I could snipe them all, but later zombies from the street broke in and hunted me.

If stealthing were on their "wrong play" list they simply would have removed it.

 
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