PC To cheese or not to cheese, that IS the question
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theFlu
Well-known member
I do like to build things that look real, but there's some things that exploit the AI while looking real; half-block droppers, and generally terrain blocks, for example. Practically I don't employ them often, as I prefer the meleeable customer service desk for its cheap and easy XP.
I'm also kinda past the point where I consider "floating" blocks an exploit, as long as they're not floating due to intentionally breaking SI. Zeds can and will attack your floating plates just fine, so all you're getting is a different look, maybe a line of fire - but for LoF the old-style-frame blocks are still perfectly viable (they behave like a full cube Bars block, great for POI chokepoints).
So, with all that said... I guess I should pick 4), even though all of 1-3) apply as well.
(so I didn't vote)
I'm also kinda past the point where I consider "floating" blocks an exploit, as long as they're not floating due to intentionally breaking SI. Zeds can and will attack your floating plates just fine, so all you're getting is a different look, maybe a line of fire - but for LoF the old-style-frame blocks are still perfectly viable (they behave like a full cube Bars block, great for POI chokepoints).
So, with all that said... I guess I should pick 4), even though all of 1-3) apply as well.
(so I didn't vote)
warmer
Well-known member
RipClaw
Well-known member
There is no cheese in the game. I have checked the XML files. No block or item is labelled as cheese. So much for that.
In reality, the zombie hands would be goo before they could smash through a concrete wall. If the threat isn't based in reality then the defence isn't either.
I generally avoid any blocks that look like they're floating in the air, but I use my knowledge of zombie AI to direct them where I want them to go.
In reality, the zombie hands would be goo before they could smash through a concrete wall. If the threat isn't based in reality then the defence isn't either.
I generally avoid any blocks that look like they're floating in the air, but I use my knowledge of zombie AI to direct them where I want them to go.
warmer
Well-known member
That is my philosophy as well. If they can't actually reach you. Where is the excitement? I only enjoy games where I have the potential to lose, otherwise I feel no sense of accomplishment.
OneManStanding
Active member
The first bases I built exploited zombie pathing -- basically a walkway up into a meat grinder of some sort, forcing the zombies to essentially form an orderly queue whilst we cut them down. This was variations based on my wee brother's approach and we just added more and more stuff to it.
However, I later made the decision to build stuff that was just more fun to defend and more epic for the zombies to chew on. For instance, a castle -- we got four bombers in one night and it was a ruin afterward. Then a pillbox-type bunker with a concrete outer fence, the bunker extending underground through several levels right down to bedrock.
I dug one into a mountain but the zombies just beat their way down to us.
I also enjoy simply fortifying actual buildings, trying to create a Last Stand of Hadley's Hope scenario in the Hospital. Or the Home Alone scenario, where we boobytrap the building and wait it out on the roof. But the zombies can fail to cooperate on this and they just attack the building itself.
However, I later made the decision to build stuff that was just more fun to defend and more epic for the zombies to chew on. For instance, a castle -- we got four bombers in one night and it was a ruin afterward. Then a pillbox-type bunker with a concrete outer fence, the bunker extending underground through several levels right down to bedrock.
I dug one into a mountain but the zombies just beat their way down to us.
I also enjoy simply fortifying actual buildings, trying to create a Last Stand of Hadley's Hope scenario in the Hospital. Or the Home Alone scenario, where we boobytrap the building and wait it out on the roof. But the zombies can fail to cooperate on this and they just attack the building itself.
theFlu
Well-known member
Mainly, sense of accomplishment, "yay, I managed to hack it". Maybe a sparkling of sadism, "look at the numbnuts go". They do get boring, but they're a step towards mastery of the game. Maybe even a necessary step.
Define cheese?
It's often in the eye of the beholder. Are having a crafting base and a separate horde base cheese? Are hatch hallways and elevated walkways cheese? Are block mass and spike field defenses cheese? Are all bases cheese, compared to running outside, kiting zombies over fences/obstacles, and managing the engagements?
It's really about a player trying to match their DPM to the zombie HP pool regardless of difficulty. Some players are much better than others in that regard, regardless of character build or base design. In a single player game where you only complete with yourself, does it even matter?
Having an engineering background I like to build in a real structural load based way. Hence, unlearning reality and embracing the non-intuitive 7d2d SI module was a challenge. I also like to build based on real world structures. Therefore to get the looks I want, I will use the double rail invisible block to add stability to custom builds if necessary.
So I probably check the first three boxes...
It's often in the eye of the beholder. Are having a crafting base and a separate horde base cheese? Are hatch hallways and elevated walkways cheese? Are block mass and spike field defenses cheese? Are all bases cheese, compared to running outside, kiting zombies over fences/obstacles, and managing the engagements?
It's really about a player trying to match their DPM to the zombie HP pool regardless of difficulty. Some players are much better than others in that regard, regardless of character build or base design. In a single player game where you only complete with yourself, does it even matter?
Having an engineering background I like to build in a real structural load based way. Hence, unlearning reality and embracing the non-intuitive 7d2d SI module was a challenge. I also like to build based on real world structures. Therefore to get the looks I want, I will use the double rail invisible block to add stability to custom builds if necessary.
So I probably check the first three boxes...
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Javabean867
Well-known member
My go to base seems to use the elevated walkway to bring the zambs up to the customer service window. There is a little cheese to it. There is a catwalk rail that the zambs practically ignore, it looks like 3 boards slapped together. Sometimes I'll dig a deep hole for the zambs to climb out of before getting up to the elevated path. Very rarely do i run into any issues with that style of base.
I also switch it up between building my own vs taking over a building.
Oh 1 of my favorite things to do right now is use a sledge turret instead of roof spikes. Good ol sammy the sledge whacks the buzzards right out of the air. I'll hear 1 squawking, take a step back towards the sledge turret, and no more buzzard.
I also switch it up between building my own vs taking over a building.
Oh 1 of my favorite things to do right now is use a sledge turret instead of roof spikes. Good ol sammy the sledge whacks the buzzards right out of the air. I'll hear 1 squawking, take a step back towards the sledge turret, and no more buzzard.
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
A way that would work in reality are only ground level bases with fighting positions all around so basically the pillbox. The moment you have a ramp, stairs or ladders they would only come up to you when they come from that exact direction. Every zombie coming from another direction wouid beat on whatever is in his way.
That said we have them fall from high enough to avoid the destroy everything mode when they fall down. In different ways. No floating blocks, no force field used.
That said we have them fall from high enough to avoid the destroy everything mode when they fall down. In different ways. No floating blocks, no force field used.
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Kattla
New member
Riamus
Well-known member
Reality... it's a zombie game. We can assume we know what a "real" zombie would do, but considering they aren't real, anything we assume is nothing more than a guess. Using a design that gets zombies to go a certain way isn't cheesing the game. That's nothing more than using your brains to design something that works well based on the "reality" of how the game works. Cheesing the game is to do something that is designed to exploit the game to some extent.
Making a base that "floats" a few meters above the ground and can't be targeted would be cheesing the game. Making a kill box would not. Neither would making a narrow path and using a sledge turret to knock them off.
The closest thing to cheesing that I would do is to use the railing on its side as a walkway around the base so I can easily shoot down at zombies around my walls. In reality, it would be very difficult to walk on that without paying close attention. But I see nothing wrong with that. It isn't like I can lean over the edge and shoot down like I could in real life.
Making a base that "floats" a few meters above the ground and can't be targeted would be cheesing the game. Making a kill box would not. Neither would making a narrow path and using a sledge turret to knock them off.
The closest thing to cheesing that I would do is to use the railing on its side as a walkway around the base so I can easily shoot down at zombies around my walls. In reality, it would be very difficult to walk on that without paying close attention. But I see nothing wrong with that. It isn't like I can lean over the edge and shoot down like I could in real life.
Vampirenostra
New member
pillbox like 5x5 base with reinforced bars windows on all sides and a single steel door connected to windows, so zeds always try to get through the door and you occasionally shoot them through the windows. a ladder to the roof covered with a hatch just in case someone wants to shoot the vultures, underground 5x5 used as base level with all the workstations, boxes etc, sometimes I add another underground level for parking with surface exit closed with garage doors and another hatch on the ladder leading up into the main quarters so zeds prefer the front door.
lord_ahriman
Member
Couldn't agree more. I build the same horde defence since A16: an electrified pit (there is ladders to the pit), support pillars for my cage inside and I kill them with pipe bombs and grenades. That's it. I don't like cheese bases and I don't need it.
pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
Isn´t that obvious: XP and lootbags. Also you have to put in time and effort to build and maintain a horde base. You have to make more ammo/traps/explosives if you have it on. No matter how cheesy it is. If you turn off blood moon you make the game easier than when using a cheese base.
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4sheetzngeegles
Well-known member
Cheese is a very subjective and arguable word. What is cheese? In a sandbox
environment it actually means anything goes. If that's the case everyone
cheeses to an extent, complete with with the "because" justification. Just
look at speed runs, youtube tips, detailed game Wikis and gameplays. The main
question; is it fun when you do it? Fun is the subjective objective opinion
that varies from player to player.
If you can't be reached by the ai then it said to get boring, but on the
other side if the same ai is adaptive and smart its considered unfair, unreal,
or non-immersive. It's shifted between one or the other with each update.
So a question to ask yourself when playing, do you want guaranteed survival and
artifice bragging rights, or eventual demise and some WTF moments? If a person
needs to change the default settings either raising entity speed or lowering
potential resources, then something is missing in their gameplay. A compromise
for that would be; raising the setting should also raise the ai intel and awareness
while weakening damage from the player. As a global and not selective set of settings.
Smart ai, is coming back, it's called Bandits. Going by passed iterations their AI
pathing is going to be way different. Gonna be kind of hard to cheese a bullet.
Unless they are all pugilist and prone to fisticuffs.
Blondie said it well "What do you consider fun? Fun natural fun."
environment it actually means anything goes. If that's the case everyone
cheeses to an extent, complete with with the "because" justification. Just
look at speed runs, youtube tips, detailed game Wikis and gameplays. The main
question; is it fun when you do it? Fun is the subjective objective opinion
that varies from player to player.
If you can't be reached by the ai then it said to get boring, but on the
other side if the same ai is adaptive and smart its considered unfair, unreal,
or non-immersive. It's shifted between one or the other with each update.
So a question to ask yourself when playing, do you want guaranteed survival and
artifice bragging rights, or eventual demise and some WTF moments? If a person
needs to change the default settings either raising entity speed or lowering
potential resources, then something is missing in their gameplay. A compromise
for that would be; raising the setting should also raise the ai intel and awareness
while weakening damage from the player. As a global and not selective set of settings.
Smart ai, is coming back, it's called Bandits. Going by passed iterations their AI
pathing is going to be way different. Gonna be kind of hard to cheese a bullet.
Unless they are all pugilist and prone to fisticuffs.
Blondie said it well "What do you consider fun? Fun natural fun."