Tips and Tricks for making POIs (not horde bases)

[NolanStaark]

Hi all, 

When I play I get more interested in building/fixing POIs and making fun/intricate/functional HQ/Crafting bases. Horde bases are pretty easy to find tutorials on, but nothing for how to make POIs look good. Like how to make diagonal walls/doors/windows look cohesive, and fixing the slight slant of dirt to a block that is in ground, etc... any suggestions where to find tutorials? Or any suggestions of your own?

 

[zztong]

When I play I get more interested in building/fixing POIs and making fun/intricate/functional HQ/Crafting bases. Horde bases are pretty easy to find tutorials on, but nothing for how to make POIs look good. Like how to make diagonal walls/doors/windows look cohesive, and fixing the slight slant of dirt to a block that is in ground, etc... any suggestions where to find tutorials? Or any suggestions of your own?

I started by watching Genosis' A19 videos about the Prefab Editor. They're still (mostly) good, though there's a bit more involved with getting a POI placed into the world since A20 so the last video in the series is out of date and the Prefab editor menus are a little different. I'd say with those videos and 8 hours of experimentation and persistence, you'd have a basic small house and be on your way to figuring out the technical aspects of POI design, of which there's a surprising number of details to know. The community could talk you through the rest. (More on them later.)

But the "looking good" part of the POI biz I can only partially answer. The "artistic" aspect isn't something I've ever studied. I've spent time looking through TFP's work with an eye towards mimicry, tempered by my own goals. I can lay out things I've noticed despite my own ignorance in things I'd label as "artistic composition" and "architecture", from which I think the TFP design team draws upon, in addition to researching real-life subjects. But I'm speculating on their background and process.

What I've noticed is clutter and damage are used to break up lengths of "sameness." At first I'd just depend on the texture of a brick wall to represent a brick wall. Then I noticed TFP used damage to break up the wall. I'll go there some now, but I kind of have a different notion of how buildings get damaged, so I don't take it to the same extent they do, plus I see myself in the "volume" business and they as in the "quality" business. Other designers, like @KatsPurr are much closer to TFP's quality. Clutter, on the other hand, is something I use more and more, and I can't learn enough about it from TFP's work. They can be really creative. Why is sameness bad? I don't really know, but I cannot usually deny the results other than to occasionally quibble about what the damage or clutter is.

The other thing I think comes into play here is knowing your toolkit and that only comes with time. There's a giant pile of blocks available to you now. I've got something like 3,500+ hours with 7D2D and I'll bet half are with the Prefab Editor. There are still things I find on TFP's POIs that turn out to be blocks I'd never knew existed. There's some clever downtown graffiti, for instance, that is some impressive "block stacking."

Then there's design vs reality compromises that tear at me all the time. For instance, TFP likes to hide zombies above ceiling tiles. At first, I considered that silly. Well, okay, I still do. But I recognize it now as a 7D2D "genre convention." In Navezgane, ceiling tiles are very strong, where as in real life, I happen to know a ceiling tile will barely hold the weight of a full grown raccoon. (That's a story for another time.) Another example here is the height of walls. My living room has 8 foot ceilings, which is 2 blocks (~2 meters). You can't place windows and pictures on a wall that short. So what is the best choice for wall height? 3 blocks gets you small windows and vertically centered pictures. 4 blocks? 5 blocks? What if you want space above a raised ceiling? 6 blocks? 7 blocks? That's a 14 meter tall floor and 14 feet would be tall. I've not yet fired up 7D2D in VR, but I'm really curious how POIs will look.

There are also game performance issues to weigh. Things like lighting and shadows can cause performance issues. Water has had quirks. With A21 water "blocks" now have different quirks. Big builds have to worry about triangles and vertices. Some objects are much heavier than others. If somebody were to make a large auto auction, for instance, they'd likely be surprised how many tris/verts a car has. This makes POI design its own kind of architecture, where you have to balance many aspects of "construction" with your vision.

So let me conclude this essay with some simple advice:

• Get in there and start swinging. If you find you like it, stick with it. Don't give up too early.
  
• Use the Prefab Editor. Building in-game is building with one hand tied behind your back, even with the creative menu.
  
• Keep your projects small. You know your own house well. Make it first.
  
• Find the community of builders and trade ideas and information. (CompoPack's Discord #prefabbers_hangout)
  

I hope other designers comment -- @Deverezieaux, @stallionsden, @MichaelL., @Laz Man and others who's forum handles I don't know. Don't take my omission of your handle as a slight.

 

[zztong]

fixing the slight slant of dirt to a block that is in ground

The "gutter" can be fixed in the Prefab Editor only. Make a selection of the blocks next to the terrain filler, then CNTRL-UP, or just UP to go one step at a time. DOWN makes more of a gutter, but those are also used when smoothing a hill, or otherwise manipulating terrain.

 

[Laz Man]

I started by watching Genosis' A19 videos about the Prefab Editor. They're still good, though there's a bit more involved with getting a POI placed into the world since A20. I'd say with those videos and 8 hours of experimentation and persistence, you'd have a basic small house and be on your way to figuring out the technical aspects of POI design, of which there's a surprising number of details to know.

But the "looking good" part of the POI biz I can only partially answer. The "artistic" aspect isn't something I've ever studied. I've spent time looking through TFP's work with an eye towards mimicry, tempered by my own goals. I can lay out things I've noticed despite my own ignorance in things I'd label as "artistic composition" and "architecture", from which I think the TFP design team draws upon, in addition to researching real-life subjects. But I'm speculating on their background and process.

What I've noticed is clutter and damage are used to break up lengths of "sameness." At first I'd just depend on the texture of a brick wall to represent a brick wall. Then I noticed TFP used damage to break up the wall. I'll go there some now, but I kind of have a different notion of how buildings get damaged, so I don't take it to the same extent they do, plus I see myself in the "volume" business and they as in the "quality" business. Other designers, like @KatsPurr are much closer to TFP's quality. Clutter, on the other hand, is something I use more and more, and I can't learn enough about it from TFP's work. They can be really creative. Why is sameness bad? I don't really know, but I cannot usually deny the results other than to occasionally quibble about what the damage or clutter is.

The other thing I think comes into play here is knowing your toolkit and that only comes with time. There's a giant pile of blocks available to you now. I've got something like 3,500+ hours with 7D2D and I'll bet half are with the Prefab Editor. There are still things I find on TFP's POIs that turn out to be blocks I'd never knew existed. There's some clever downtown graffiti, for instance, that is some impressive "block stacking."

Then there's design vs reality compromises that tear at me all the time. For instance, TFP likes to hide zombies above ceiling tiles. At first, I considered that silly. Well, okay, I still do. But I recognize it now as a 7D2D "genre convention." In Navezgane, ceiling tiles are very strong, where as in real life, I happen to know a ceiling tile will barely hold the weight of a full grown raccoon. (That's a story for another time.) Another example here is the height of walls. My living room has 8 foot ceilings, which is 2 blocks (~2 meters). You can't place windows and pictures on a wall that short. So what is the best choice for wall height? 3 blocks gets you small windows and vertically centered pictures. 4 blocks? 5 blocks? What if you want space above a raised ceiling? 6 blocks? 7 blocks? That's a 14 meter tall floor and 14 feet would be tall. I've not yet fired up 7D2D in VR, but I'm really curious how POIs will look.

There are also game performance issues to weigh. Things like lighting and shadows can cause performance issues. Water has had quirks. With A21 water "blocks" now have different quirks. Big builds have to worry about triangles and vertices. Some objects are much heavier than others. If somebody were to make a large auto auction, for instance, they'd likely be surprised how many tris/verts a car has. This makes POI design its own kind of architecture, where you have to balance many aspects of "construction" with your vision.

So let me conclude this essay with some simple advice:

• Get in there and start swinging. If you find you like it, stick with it. Don't give up too early.
  
• Use the Prefab Editor. Building in-game is building with one hand tied behind your back, even with the creative menu.
  
• Keep your projects small. You know your own house well. Make it first.
  
• Find the community of builders and trade ideas and information. (CompoPack's Discord #prefabbers_hangout)
  

I hope other designers comment -- @Deverezieaux, @stallionsden, @MichaelL., @Laz Man and others who's forum handles I don't know. Don't take my omission of your handle as a slight.

Well said ZZtong on all points.  Great advice for an aspiring POI builders.  Hopefully as we get closer to gold, the level design team will create and share more official documentation for those who want to use the ingame editors.

The RWG tile guide for example, was written by one of our leads so those in the community can build to the new standards set by that new system that was introduced in A20.

 

[stallionsden]

I started by watching Genosis' A19 videos about the Prefab Editor. They're still (mostly) good, though there's a bit more involved with getting a POI placed into the world since A20 so the last video in the series is out of date and the Prefab editor menus are a little different. I'd say with those videos and 8 hours of experimentation and persistence, you'd have a basic small house and be on your way to figuring out the technical aspects of POI design, of which there's a surprising number of details to know. The community could talk you through the rest. (More on them later.)

But the "looking good" part of the POI biz I can only partially answer. The "artistic" aspect isn't something I've ever studied. I've spent time looking through TFP's work with an eye towards mimicry, tempered by my own goals. I can lay out things I've noticed despite my own ignorance in things I'd label as "artistic composition" and "architecture", from which I think the TFP design team draws upon, in addition to researching real-life subjects. But I'm speculating on their background and process.

What I've noticed is clutter and damage are used to break up lengths of "sameness." At first I'd just depend on the texture of a brick wall to represent a brick wall. Then I noticed TFP used damage to break up the wall. I'll go there some now, but I kind of have a different notion of how buildings get damaged, so I don't take it to the same extent they do, plus I see myself in the "volume" business and they as in the "quality" business. Other designers, like @KatsPurr are much closer to TFP's quality. Clutter, on the other hand, is something I use more and more, and I can't learn enough about it from TFP's work. They can be really creative. Why is sameness bad? I don't really know, but I cannot usually deny the results other than to occasionally quibble about what the damage or clutter is.

The other thing I think comes into play here is knowing your toolkit and that only comes with time. There's a giant pile of blocks available to you now. I've got something like 3,500+ hours with 7D2D and I'll bet half are with the Prefab Editor. There are still things I find on TFP's POIs that turn out to be blocks I'd never knew existed. There's some clever downtown graffiti, for instance, that is some impressive "block stacking."

Then there's design vs reality compromises that tear at me all the time. For instance, TFP likes to hide zombies above ceiling tiles. At first, I considered that silly. Well, okay, I still do. But I recognize it now as a 7D2D "genre convention." In Navezgane, ceiling tiles are very strong, where as in real life, I happen to know a ceiling tile will barely hold the weight of a full grown raccoon. (That's a story for another time.) Another example here is the height of walls. My living room has 8 foot ceilings, which is 2 blocks (~2 meters). You can't place windows and pictures on a wall that short. So what is the best choice for wall height? 3 blocks gets you small windows and vertically centered pictures. 4 blocks? 5 blocks? What if you want space above a raised ceiling? 6 blocks? 7 blocks? That's a 14 meter tall floor and 14 feet would be tall. I've not yet fired up 7D2D in VR, but I'm really curious how POIs will look.

There are also game performance issues to weigh. Things like lighting and shadows can cause performance issues. Water has had quirks. With A21 water "blocks" now have different quirks. Big builds have to worry about triangles and vertices. Some objects are much heavier than others. If somebody were to make a large auto auction, for instance, they'd likely be surprised how many tris/verts a car has. This makes POI design its own kind of architecture, where you have to balance many aspects of "construction" with your vision.

So let me conclude this essay with some simple advice:

• Get in there and start swinging. If you find you like it, stick with it. Don't give up too early.
  
• Use the Prefab Editor. Building in-game is building with one hand tied behind your back, even with the creative menu.
  
• Keep your projects small. You know your own house well. Make it first.
  
• Find the community of builders and trade ideas and information. (CompoPack's Discord #prefabbers_hangout)
  

I hope other designers comment -- @Deverezieaux, @stallionsden, @MichaelL., @Laz Man and others who's forum handles I don't know. Don't take my omission of your handle as a slight.

I think you answered it perfectly to be honest.

I wanna hear the raccoon story now lol.

But to add to zztongs I started prefabbing building in game back in my day (sorry for the pun) there wasnt the great tool tfp have provided us known as the prefab editor .

We built in game back then and exported.

I think my first poi was a9 a10.

The prefab editor is as zztong mentioned the a powerful tool a prefabber can use imo. It's functionality and ease once you learn far exceeds building in game .

Some prefabbers biuild using their imagination, others build things they know.

Others build to what is in Arizona and there are others that build what is in their home country. 

As ZZTong mentioned always welcome to join the compopack discord many prefabbers are happy to help and lend a hand and help with ay questions etc.

 

[NolanStaark]

Thank you all for the great replies! I'll definitely look into getting better. So far my exp with the prefab editor is its kinda clunky and a bit too complex, but I'll continue to work in it to get better at it.

Yeah definitely want to hear the racoon story lol

 

The RWG tile guide

Also I would definitely be interested in going over this guide if someone could point me in the right direction. Or is it just the Random World Generator guide?

 

[mprojekt]

Then there's design vs reality compromises that tear at me all the time. For instance, TFP likes to hide zombies above ceiling tiles. At first, I considered that silly. Well, okay, I still do. But I recognize it now as a 7D2D "genre convention." In Navezgane, ceiling tiles are very strong, where as in real life, I happen to know a ceiling tile will barely hold the weight of a full grown raccoon. (That's a story for another time.)

I would also like to know the raccoon story. 

In exchange, in 2005, my sister and my brother-in-law discovered that the roof of their condo in Seattle, and part of the sheet-rock ceiling above their couch, was particularly weak against squirrels. I will never forget a phone call I got, my sister yelling that something was staring at her from the ceiling. She ran round her place to find a broom, only to drop her cordless phone as she whacked at a large grey squirrel "like a rat-faced, furry chihuahua" with a broom until it squeaked at her and left.

 

[zztong]

I would also like to know the raccoon story.

I work at a University. A close friend of mine also works for the University. He's a biologist with lots of animal experience and lab experience. He gets the calls when there are varmints the most notable on campus being: mice, feral cats, bats, squirrels, fox, skunk, deer, and raccoon. I often tag along on his calls since we both have jobs where we visit all sorts of obscure places and we sometimes handle a call when we're out to lunch together.

He tells me about a problem. Something has been making a mess of things in an office. The usual suspect is a squirrel. He puts a live trap up in the drop ceiling. When he does that, he has to check on the trap every day. But this time he gets a call from the office. Something in the ceiling is making a heck of a racket. He responds immediately. He trapped a large raccoon, in the cage, in the drop ceiling. If you know raccoons, they're both strong and able to manipulate things. He arrives to find the raccoon, still in the cage, tearing the hell out of the ceiling tile. The ceiling tile is already buckling a little under the weight and the more damage the raccoon inflicts the more likely it's going to fail dropping the cage onto a desk and probably breaking the cage open. The cage is kind of balanced in a growing hole, and he's got to quickly figure out how to get the cage down with a large, heavy, upset raccoon inside. He needed a ladder, heavy gloves, and luckily the tile held.

At least it wasn't a skunk. He'd have been screwed then as to trap a skunk you put the cage inside a garbage bag.

He's got lots of tales. I'm usually not present for the good ones. Some of my favorite stories are the squirrels that latrine on a professor's desk. (She thought it was students peeing on her stuff.) He's knocked a flying bat out of the air with his hand. (That's a feat!) He's currently trying to figure out how to trap a squirrel that lives in a food warehouse. The major complication is what do you bait the trap with -- food. It's a warehouse full of food. Thus, it's a warehouse full of bait.

Ah, good times.

Tagging others that had interest: @NolanStaark, @stallionsden

 

[NolanStaark]

In case other's are looking, I just found this channel for building examples and ideas to add to the suggestion of zztong:

https://www.youtube.com/@QuillGaming

It's nice because he explains the build (and provides a material/shape/paint list) and the majority of the block's choice, even for decorations.