PC Tier 5 POI's

[Riamus]

I see T5 POI's as being about a quarter less than they are now in size, time needed and resource expended to complete. Something between the T4 and what the T5 are now. They should add to the players progression. Not be a Don't need to but will because Trader Quests. Should be anticipated, look forward to and rewarding enough that the need to do them is meaningful. This would also solve the difficulty in adding POI's of those sizes for T5 quest, which is a high demand of players. I can only image the effort it takes in prefabbing a building of that size for an intrigal part of the game play mechanics. Not to mention optimization. 

I would be upset to see T5s made smaller and easier unless they added T6 at the same time and made those bigger and more challenging that T5s are today.

No one is required to do T5 quests if they feel they are too hard or not with the time and effort.  Changing them so casual players or those who don't want the challenge can do them is a bad idea.  Those who don't like T5 difficulty or size can easily stick to T4 and do just fine in terms of loot and progression.  You aren't penalized for not doing T5 quests other than not getting the T5 completion reward, which can be pretty nice, but it's also obtainable without doing T5s.  I admit that there are times I don't want to bother with a T5 because of the time it takes, but other times I really enjoy them.

When it comes down to it, I would like having larger POIs and add another tier for quests and loot to extend the game.  Making the game easier when it isn't really that hard once you know the game and POIs just shortens the game and too many players run out of things to do long before even day 100, which is unfortunate.

 

[Jinx_DG]

but that doesn't mean the developers don't care about balance and my points stem from that aspect rather than from a "fun" perspective.

I think what you are missing is that "fun" needs to be and is intrigual to the equation of balance. Fun can be a measurable expression just as all the other parts are. The key is giving that expression a measurement. A difficult task, but one I think TFP have done well in so far.  As more balancing is done the expression of fun in the equation will no doubt be changed or refined. 

 

[Kyoji]

I think what you are missing is that "fun" needs to be and is intrigual to the equation of balance. Fun can be a measurable expression just as all the other parts are. The key is giving that expression a measurement. A difficult task, but one I think TFP have done well in so far.  As more balancing is done the expression of fun in the equation will no doubt be changed or refined. 

I think fun is the essence that the equation seeks to achieve. As what "fun" is differs from person to person I think that would be challenging to agree upon, however, I think if we are playing then we are having fun to at least the degree we are responding to each other on a gaming forum. So my issue isn't that T5 POIs are not "fun" as that has already been achieved. My goal is to make them more balanced when compared to other POIs, at least IMHO. If you could combine the two then I believe the "fun" value would increase as well as it wouldn't just be subjective "fun" that people derive from setting their own goals, but one that fits within the scheme of the game which balances itself.

The goal isn't to minimize fun, but to maintain the fun of T5 POIs while also making them worthwhile from a gameplay mechanic standpoint. 

I guess what I am trying to express is that if we agree, generally, that T5 POIs do not offer the same value to time investment as other POIs then from a development standpoint then would it hurt to bring T5 POI's more in-line with other POIs or should they be only for experience farming and general enjoyment? Unless you register experience as a calculable byproduct of a T5 POI in which you may justify the longer duration when compared to other POI's I don't think "fun" values decrease by bringing T5 POIs more in-line with other POIs for time investment versus gains.

 

[Jinx_DG]

easier

I never suggested T5 should be made easier, just more meaningful.

I would like having larger POIs and add another tier for quests and loot to extend the game

A game can only go so large and add so much before the weight of it comes crashing down making the game unplayable. I understand you wanting more quest lines, bigger poi's, more play time, but there comes a time when what a player wants, to extend his fun becomes unfeasable and the game ride must end and the player must get of the ride. That doesn't mean he can't get on again, just that no ride lasts forever. There is only so much a game engine can handle or how big a POI can be. There are numerious threads about lag from big poi's as it is. 

I'd like more big poi's myself and there are plans to add more. I just think they should be treated as special. You want T6 quests, but POI's can't get bigger than what they are now. There would be no difference between T5 and T6 except for maybe the trader reward. To have more, the more needs to fit within the boundry. The game engine isn't infinite. 

but one that fits within the scheme of the game which balances itself.

The goal isn't to minimize fun, but to maintain the fun of T5 POIs while also making them worthwhile from a gameplay mechanic standpoint. 

Agreed. I think we are in line with each others view points on this. I just think that fun should be a part of the equation, especially with balancing from a devs view. But I can also agree that "fun is the essence that the equation seeks to achieve." 

Nothing says it can't be both, right? Lol

 

[Riamus]

There is only so much a game engine can handle or how big a POI can be. There are numerious threads about lag from big poi's as it is. 

Yes, there are many threads about it.  However, at least from what we are heading about A21, the biggest issue causing lag on these are the bulletproof windows and those are being changed and supposedly improve the experience noticeably.  Assuming what is being said is accurate, larger POIs should be no problem.  And to be clear, by larger, I'm not suggesting something like the aircraft carrier POI in the prefab forum.  I'm talking of only somewhat larger and I do think this is feasible with the engine once windows are fixed.

 

[Roland]

Well A21 is going to feature at least one brand new T5 quest location so it will be interesting to see how it fares in the minds of experienced T5 players. I know the level design team is very excited for you to try it. They really rock the Wheatley vibe when it comes to their creations...

 

[meganoth]

There is still the fact that there are very few of them. So I think making them more special could certainly be a way. And by special I mean that there won't be 5 of them offered every time you visit the trader but that a trader has only one such quest offered every fourth day on average.

This would mean that whether it was worth it or not, a tier5 quest offered would be something special.

 

[Jinx_DG]

Assuming what is being said is accurate, larger POIs should be no problem. 

You WANT larger POI's to be no problem (after the window fix). Just stating that it shouldn't be a problem does not make it so. What data can you provide to back this up?

I'm talking of only somewhat larger and I do think this is feasible with the engine once windows are fixed.

Somewhat larger is kinda vauge, but I think I get what you want. From my understanding POI size alone doesn't determine it's quest tier. Zed count iirc is also a factor, so while having a bigger poi would indeed allow more zeds, slightly smaller poi's could have just as many zeds as the current T5 poi's, thus giving us many new T5 quest poi's without asking to much of the design & prefab team. The current T5's and any new in progress additions, along with your slightly bigger (if dev team willing) could be relabled as your T6 request or as my Special Quest suggestion. Win Win as I see it. 

But all this is just personal pimp dreams for the both of us. While larger POI's sound cool and a knee jerk would be to say, yeah I'd love that, I doubt personaly I'd ever do those bigger POI's as a quest or do them at all in regular game play. I dislike having to gaurentee a certain amount of RL time to me gameplay or questing. Once started you cna't log out until it's finished or the quest resets and having to continue a play because of a quest when logging off is needed or wanted just @%$#es me off and puts me in a bad mood. 

 

[zztong]

Somewhat larger is kinda vauge, but I think I get what you want. From my understanding POI size alone doesn't determine it's quest tier. Zed count iirc is also a factor, so while having a bigger poi would indeed allow more zeds, slightly smaller poi's could have just as many zeds as the current T5 poi's, thus giving us many new T5 quest poi's without asking to much of the design & prefab team.

I don't think I'd focus entirely on numbers of zombies to define the tiers. It is a factor, sure, but I think "density" of zombies is also an important way to look at it. That is, how many zombies you face at once.

I do think size is a factor because it influences time and I think you want tier 1 quests to play faster, but also because combining reasonable densities with higher number of zombies will mean more rooms, thus size.

I think you also start to gate in different POI features/complications over the tiers such that by tier 5 all of the dirty tricks are viable.

Plainly stated, there's a big difference between a POI with 60 zombies scattered over a sixteen rooms and a POI where you fall through a weak floor into the midst of 60 instantly active zombies.

I dislike having to gaurentee a certain amount of RL time to me gameplay or questing. Once started you cna't log out until it's finished or the quest resets and having to continue a play because of a quest when logging off is needed or wanted just @%$#es me off and puts me in a bad mood. 

For a solo game, I agree completely. RL has a way of intruding and it sure would be nice to be able to treat a save as if it were a pause so you could pick up where you left off after three days.

 

[ElDudorino]

From my understanding POI size alone doesn't determine it's quest tier. Zed count iirc is also a factor, so while having a bigger poi would indeed allow more zeds, slightly smaller poi's could have just as many zeds as the current T5 poi's, thus giving us many new T5 quest poi's without asking to much of the design & prefab team.

Quest design also doesn't have to stay as it is right now.  Currently any PoI quest is just tied to the difficulty tier assigned to that PoI, but TFP could make quests that are less about exploring a large PoI and more about surviving or managing threats.  Maybe they could send you to a place where you get attacked in waves from multiple directions and you have limited time to throw down defenses to protect yourself, or you have to keep moving from spot to spot and therefore can't as easily barricade against the zombies.  Or you start a quest during the day where you have to shore up a certain PoI's defenses in a certain amount of time in order to make it able to survive a horde that's drawn there at night.  Maybe even some sort of quest format that completely eliminates player gear, build, and construction capabilities could be interesting- something like a quest where you have to protect a spot only visible via cameras or through unbreakable glass and you do it by turning valves to redirect gas to different flame hazards.  So you wouldn't actually hunt zombies yourself but rather would manipulate the environment against them remotely.  It would take some thought to come up with a few winning ideas but I think it would be interesting to do more than just throw bigger and bigger PoIs at the player.

About existing T5s, I absolutely do think T5 PoIs should have loot distributed throughout them and not just in the 'loot room' but also that they should have better rolls for good loot than they do since they're currently very underwhelming.  I have run them just for the experience of it and I love the atmosphere and worldbuilding of some like Higashi Pharmaceuticals but once you've seen what they have to offer it is easy to start to see them as just time sinks that take away from your productive hours in the game.

I am in the crowd who believes that you should have to manage your inventory, though.  I too have reached that point where I have to ask myself "OK, what can I ditch to make room for this loot?" and I think it's an important element of the game.  But actually I found it became pretty manageable once I started leaving drinks on the shelf and insta-scrapping anything metal that I don't plan to wield.

 

[Laz Man]

There are alot of factors that contribute to each tier.  Zombie count is definitely a major factor, but so is length of player path and ultimately how much time time does the POI require to complete.

Fyi, the updated crack a book HQ and the pop N Pills factory are probably the smallest / fastest T5s to clear.  Whereas, Dishong is one of the largest / longest T5s.

 

[Uncle Al]

About existing T5s, I absolutely do think T5 PoIs should have loot distributed throughout them and not just in the 'loot room' but also that they should have better rolls for good loot than they do since they're currently very underwhelming.

I definitely agree that the balance between biome modifier and POI Tier modifier is out of whack currently. That's a numerical balance change so I'd expect to see it revisited right up into beta.

Currently at a gamestage of 100 a T5 POI gives something like a +75 loot stage bonus. Being in the wasteland gives +180. That seems problematic.

 

[zztong]

Currently at a gamestage of 100 a T5 POI gives something like a +75 loot stage bonus. Being in the wasteland gives +180. That seems problematic.

Interesting. Are those additive? That is, a T5 in the Wasteland would result in +255? Or are you suggesting the T5 bonus overrides the Wasteland bonus?

 

[Uncle Al]

Interesting. Are those additive? That is, a T5 in the Wasteland would result in +255? Or are you suggesting the T5 bonus overrides the Wasteland bonus?

They're additive.

My understanding is you add the flat bonuses (Biome, POI, things like lucky goggles) then take that number and apply multipliers like lucky looter skill or candy.

 

[theFlu]

For a greppy answer:

loot.xml:
<loot_settings poi_tier_mod="0.05,0.1,0.15,0.2,0.25" poi_tier_bonus="3,6,9,12,15" />

biomes.xml:
<biome name="snow" topsoil_block="terrSnow" biomemapcolor="#FFFFFF" lootstage_modifier = "1" lootstage_bonus="20">
<biome name="pine_forest" topsoil_block="terrForestGround" biomemapcolor="#004000" lootstage_modifier = "0" lootstage_bonus="0">
<biome name="desert" topsoil_block="terrDesertGround" biomemapcolor="#FFE477" lootstage_modifier = "0.5" lootstage_bonus="10">
<biome name="wasteland" topsoil_block="terrDestroyedStone" biomemapcolor="#ffa800" lootstage_modifier = "1.5" lootstage_bonus="30">
<biome name="burnt_forest" topsoil_block="terrBurntForestGround" biomemapcolor="#ba00ff" lootstage_modifier = "0.5" lootstage_bonus="10">




What does that mean? Both the biomes and POIs give a multiplier and a constant boost. I don't remember the exact formula, but it's pretty basic math.

Wasteland gives a multiplier of 1.5 (but I guess it's better read as a 2.5, because that "pine forest zero" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.. ). Tier 5 POIs give a 0.25 (would be a 1.25 to compare to the 2.5). And the constant parts are 2x (15 vs 30) for the wasteland as well => the biome is pretty dominant.

I don't see a problem there; I'd say the biome (esp wasteland) is more significant for difficulty. You can take ages to clear a POI in the forest, but taking it slow in the wasteland is not exactly easy. If you're not able to quickly clear a POI, you'll have trouble in the wasteland nights.

 

[Uncle Al]

For a greppy answer:

loot.xml:
<loot_settings poi_tier_mod="0.05,0.1,0.15,0.2,0.25" poi_tier_bonus="3,6,9,12,15" />

biomes.xml:
<biome name="snow" topsoil_block="terrSnow" biomemapcolor="#FFFFFF" lootstage_modifier = "1" lootstage_bonus="20">
<biome name="pine_forest" topsoil_block="terrForestGround" biomemapcolor="#004000" lootstage_modifier = "0" lootstage_bonus="0">
<biome name="desert" topsoil_block="terrDesertGround" biomemapcolor="#FFE477" lootstage_modifier = "0.5" lootstage_bonus="10">
<biome name="wasteland" topsoil_block="terrDestroyedStone" biomemapcolor="#ffa800" lootstage_modifier = "1.5" lootstage_bonus="30">
<biome name="burnt_forest" topsoil_block="terrBurntForestGround" biomemapcolor="#ba00ff" lootstage_modifier = "0.5" lootstage_bonus="10">




What does that mean? Both the biomes and POIs give a multiplier and a constant boost. I don't remember the exact formula, but it's pretty basic math.

Wasteland gives a multiplier of 1.5 (but I guess it's better read as a 2.5, because that "pine forest zero" wouldn't make much sense otherwise.. ). Tier 5 POIs give a 0.25 (would be a 1.25 to compare to the 2.5). And the constant parts are 2x (15 vs 30) for the wasteland as well => the biome is pretty dominant.

I don't see a problem there; I'd say the biome (esp wasteland) is more significant for difficulty. You can take ages to clear a POI in the forest, but taking it slow in the wasteland is not exactly easy. If you're not able to quickly clear a POI, you'll have trouble in the wasteland nights.

Yes, thanks, much better explanation.

I'd done the x2.5 +30 in my head for Wasteland but didn't explain it well at all.

Still being inside a POI come nightfall in the wasteland is a big deal, but the impact is much less for other biomes. I'd certainly say a T4 snow is usually easier than a T5 desert, but the snow POI will give a significantly higher loot stage. 

 

[rateds2k]

If I was in charge I would remove all HUD notifications but make a drone mod that when installed would add them back. Then those who want those HUD helps could have them as an option by crafting/finding them and installing them into a drone and taking their drone with them. Alternatively, there could be a scanner mod that would have the drone seek out and "point" at any zeds within a 15 block radius. That could help you find the missing zeds if you use the tech.

That is an amazing idea.

 

[Riamus]

You WANT larger POI's to be no problem (after the window fix). Just stating that it shouldn't be a problem does not make it so. What data can you provide to back this up?

I didn't say they would definitely be better after the fix.  I said that they were saying it would improve and that *if* that is correct, then larger POI *should* be fine.  Until we see it, there is no way to know.  But based on what has been mentioned about the window fix, there is at least a decent chance of noticeable improvement.  I would be surprised if they said it was improved if it wasn't as that would just really upset a lot of people for no reason.  But that doesn't mean the improvement will be noticeable for all people.  So, yes, I want them to play better and they probably will.  If they don't, then obviously larger POI are not going to work well.

Large POI are always going to be something that some players like and some don't.  If you don't spend a lot of time in the game, you won't want to do those as they take a long time.  On the other hand, if you normally play for hours at a time anyhow, doing a T5 isn't a big deal.  That said, I do agree that there is a large jump from T4 to T5 and having something between them would probably make sense.

My biggest issue with T5 is that there are so few that you are always doing the same thing over and over.  Hopefully we will see a decent number of new ones in A21.

Regarding what you are suggesting of these being "special quests"... What would that actually mean?  People can already choose whether or not to do them and calling them special versus T5 doesn't change that.  Are you suggesting a better reward for completing then because they are "special"?  I think I had said earlier that my feeling is that the game already provides too good of loot too easily and making better loot for these isn't a great idea unless you lower all other loot.  Besides, other than time, T5 aren't that hard to complete unless you are under geared and I think the loot you receive (everything throughout the POI, including loot room, and the reward) is already good.  Or is there some other change that making these "special" instead of T5 would do?

 

[Indy]

Like everyone else here, I've done the Tier V quests alot, and generally, I always figured I'd be better off doing the Tier IV house with all the bookshelves, or the Tier IV church.  (With all the bookshelves)  I've never thought the factory's were "worth it", except they are more challenging so you do them for exp and for fun.

But Dishong is different!!  I don't know if Dishong has always been this way, but I have yet to do a Dishong run where I didn't come out with more ammo then I came in with.  Also, there are a bunch of bookshelves, especially up towards the top.  Since trying to find the hidden recipes, or the last perk books, is usually what I'm trying to do at this point, I like this POI quite a bit.

 

[BFT2020]

I play SP and I still do the T5 POIs once I get the 4x4 built.  However, I tend to go into those with the understanding that I will be stripping them of all usable materials and it will be roughly a two day job.  Start early and clear out from bottom to top.  Then start looting and going back down, dropping chests at the stairs (typically) as I feel up.  Then open the stairs up.  After looting, I then make my way back to the top and start hauling things back down.

Some things I haven't done yet is do the same POI with the drone and cargo mods loaded (TBH, I have yet to play a game with the drone; I haven't been fortunate yet to find one in loot or make one up before I died and restarted).