PC Thoughts on skills, XP and perks

[Sethiel]

Hi there,

I just wanted to start a discussion about the pros and cons of the older system of skills, where you gained levels as you used those skills, compared to the current system, where you earn general experience (mostly by killing) and then spend them on perks however you wish.

Because I really have to say I hate this perk system a lot. Not this particular, current perk system. The idea of the perk system in general.

I really loved the way you used to learn skills - by using them. It just makes so much sense. There is no need for some artificial general "XP", which actually doesn't make any sense. Why should I be able to craft a new thing after I killed 20 zombies? Why am I able to improve myself in the use of firearms when I only ever use a club?

There is also another reason this general XP is extremely bad design in my opinion, and the reason is level scaling. You get a horde night every so often, and with that a lot of zombies. Zombies are bags of experience. Maybe you are leveling too fast for your taste and you want slower pace, not increasing the strength of your encounters so fast. Well, too bad - there might not be a good way for you to deal with the night horde that wouldn't earn you a lot of XP, pushing you forward. Or maybe the opposite is true, and you want to reach a certain "perk", so you need to grind. So you need to kill the zombies yourself, even though you might have traps or other ways to deal with them. You are not gonna use them because you would lose a lot of XP.

The conclusion is the same in both cases, however different they might seem. You are not playing the game like you want to play. You are accommodating your play to the meta.

With the system of leveling skills by use, I really felt I could just play however I liked and this impacted the game in a predictable way. With this system, I feel like I need to understand the underlying mechanisms and act accordingly or have a very bad experience playing.

Any thoughts about this? Do you like the perk system more than the level-by-use system? Do you feel the changes to the leveling that TFP has done are for the better?

 

[alphaniner]

The old system is generally called "learn by doing" or LBD around here. I only vaguely remember how it worked. I know I've read a fair amount of criticism about it but don't remember the details. Maybe a regular can summarize why it was abandoned.

FWIW I'm also a fan of LBD, at least in theory. In practice I think it's very hard to balance. Consider the number of mods that were made to fix leveling issues in Morrowind and Oblivion. I believe at least two brand new leveling mods for Oblivion were introduced in just the past year...

 

[RipClaw]

I am also a fan of the LBD system. The advantage was that only what was used was levelled. So it adapted to the way you play. It felt natural.

What some people complained about was that in their opinion you have to do nonsensical things like spam crafting, running against cacti for hours or shooting at rocks with a shotgun while mining. But the complaints come from players who believe that you have to get everything to maximum as fast as possible. One even complained that he can't become a mining master without actually doing mining.

The current skill system has the advantage that no matter what you do, you can distribute the points into areas that have nothing to do with what you do. This is of course good for players who don't like certain activities such as mining or farming and therefore avoid them if possible.

The new system is now well balanced so that not only killing zombies will give you points. Actually I got most of my XP by building and mining because they are my favorite activities.

I also have a good overview how to build my character so that it works well for my way of playing.

According to what I have read there should be some adjustments to the skill tree in A19 so that some skills do not have 5 levels anymore but only 3.

 

[warmer]

I just wanted to start a discussion about the pros and cons of the older system of skills, where you gained levels as you used those skills, compared to the current system, where you earn general experience (mostly by killing) and then spend them on perks however you wish.

Honestly, I gain levels PRETTY damn fast just building and upgrading my first base. Even a fairly small base upgraded from frames to cobble stone will get you 2 levels when you are starting out. I would say I gain and 2/5 of my levels from Zombie killing and 2/5 from building/crafting and 1/5 from mining/resource gathering.

 

[RestInPieces]

It used to be horrible, with zombies being xp loot bags at some point, but it has been balanced well.

That said, I was also a fan of the LBD system in this game and can't think of any other game more fitting for a LBD system than this one. But it belongs to the past :/

 

[n2n1]

LBD was the best choice for this game.

Just had to perfect it. The perk system is more profitable for developers because it is easy to balance, but not for players.

 

[FA_Q2]

Bah, LBD is the worst progression system ever put in games. I have never liked it in ANY game it has been tried in let alone this game. A perk system is FAR superior IMHO.

 

[p0wd3rp1l0t]

i dont miss spam crafting. i spent many nights just crafting stone axes. i like the new system, but could see in a single player scenario where it would be difficult. i play in a group so we all specialize to a certain point now

 

[Kubikus]

Bah, LBD is the worst progression system ever put in games. I have never liked it in ANY game it has been tried in let alone this game. A perk system is FAR superior IMHO.

But why?

 

[Aldranon]

To me, Gamestage/Exp is generally counter to survival (Negative) verses your loot, perks and skills that help you survive (Positive).

So:

1) Killing zombies is a negative most of the time and should be avoided, if possible.

2) Mining can be positive if you need the materials you mine immediately, anything more is a negative.

THE top survival skill/perk to get is Lucky Looter types and any gear that gets you more or better loot.

1) Better loot gets you better weapons/armor so you use less ammo, medical supplies to survive.

2) Better loot can be sold for more money that gives you more opportunities to buy items that help you survive even more.

 

[FA_Q2]

But why?

Because it does not guide the player to silly and pointless activities like hugging a cactus. A perk system gives the player the open option of organically playing the game and progress along a planned out path.

I think Roland has the best idea for exp - same perk system that we have but you gain perks based on surviving (time based) not by specific actions.

 

[FA_Q2]

To me, Gamestage/Exp is generally counter to survival (Negative) verses your loot, perks and skills that help you survive (Positive).
So:

1) Killing zombies is a negative most of the time and should be avoided, if possible.

2) Mining can be positive if you need the materials you mine immediately, anything more is a negative.

THE top survival skill/perk to get is Lucky Looter types and any gear that gets you more or better loot.

1) Better loot gets you better weapons/armor so you use less ammo, medical supplies to survive.

2) Better loot can be sold for more money that gives you more opportunities to buy items that help you survive even more.

The loot bonus with LL is to small to really matter. There are FAR better perks that will directly gain you more mats/dukes than LL and combat perks ensure you can clear rooms faster leading to much larger numbers of containers to loot.

 

[RipClaw]

i dont miss spam crafting. i spent many nights just crafting stone axes. i like the new system, but could see in a single player scenario where it would be difficult. i play in a group so we all specialize to a certain point now

You made stone axes because you convinced yourself that you had to do it, but it was not necessary at all.

I bet you are someone who wants to kill every single zombie in a horde yourself to get the most XP and probably you will also farm screamer hordes.

I have never done spamcrafting. I played naturally and got better at what I did. The rest I was not interested in.

 

[Kubikus]

Because it does not guide the player to silly and pointless activities like hugging a cactus.

But what if there were no silly and pointless activities involved? This arguments "always" comes up when the issue is discussed, the removable flaws this game's LBD-mechanic had.
At the same time, killing countless zombies to farm xp can be understood as pointless too, so what about that?

A perk system gives the player the open option of organically playing the game and progress along a planned out path.

Yeah, you can do whatever you want and still get any skill. That really is an advantage of perks. But what I don't quite understand about this angle is, why would you play so-and-so, for example not use a bladed weapon, and still level up the bladed weapon with other activities? Would it be in any way unorganic to use the bladed weapon, that you want to improve with a perk, but improve it by using it?
Any other example applies: If you want to be good at X, you want to do X, so why would you not want to do X to get better at X, and instead feel it's more organic to do Y instead?

 

[Kubikus]

You made stone axes because you convinced yourself that you had to do it, but it was not necessary at all.

I bet you are someone who wants to kill every single zombie in a horde yourself to get the most XP and probably you will also farm screamer hordes.

I have never done spamcrafting. I played naturally and got better at what I did. The rest I was not interested in.

I think spamcrafting was necessary to get to higher levels in a reasonable time. The design of many of the skills was flawed, but that could've been fixed fairly easily. For example could you feed xp into a "stone axe"-skill both by crafting and using the stone axe, so you would also craft better stone axes after using stone axes a lot. To prevent spam crafting - just increase the crafting time from 3 seconds (which is absurd anyways) to something like a minute. You could even just give no xp for crafting at all, just get it all from using the stone axe.

 

[RestInPieces]

Because it does not guide the player to silly and pointless activities like hugging a cactus. A perk system gives the player the open option of organically playing the game and progress along a planned out path.

Nothing to do with LBD itself. This system would do the same if they hadn't taken the time to balance it.

You made stone axes because you convinced yourself that you had to do it, but it was not necessary at all.

I bet you are someone who wants to kill every single zombie in a horde yourself to get the most XP and probably you will also farm screamer hordes.

I have never done spamcrafting. I played naturally and got better at what I did. The rest I was not interested in.

The game shouldn't allow you to do it without constraints in the first place. You can't just design whatever with no regard for anything and hope that players play "naturally" to enjoy the game.

 

[RipClaw]

I think spamcrafting was necessary to get to higher levels in a reasonable time. The design of many of the skills was flawed, but that could've been fixed fairly easily. For example could you feed xp into a "stone axe"-skill both by crafting and using the stone axe, so you would also craft better stone axes after using stone axes a lot. To prevent spam crafting - just increase the crafting time from 3 seconds (which is absurd anyways) to something like a minute. You could even just give no xp for crafting at all, just get it all from using the stone axe.

Spamcrafting was no longer a problem in Alpha 16 as far as I remember. The more you made of the same the less XP you got.

 

[Sethiel]

So, the only argument that I have heard so far was "I felt forced to abuse the system". And that, in my book, is not a reason to remove the system. That is the reason to balance it better.

I mean ... I really hate the idea of "builds" in this type of game. What is this, Path of Exile? Why do I need to invest in strength to cook better food? Why am I forced to learn that pistols and rifles are governed by different "attributes" and I need to grind different perks? Why can't I just play the damn game?

What was already said in this thread is my point exactly - this is the type of game that is made to be LBD.

 

[KeiraR]

Spam crafting.

Restarting the game to get another horde/leaving screamers alone, hoping they spawn more screamers for XP.

What's the difference? Besides becoming skilled with engines by killing zombies.

 

[Roland]

I mean ... I really hate the idea of "builds" in this type of game. What is this, Path of Exile?

I don't understand why character builds can't be in "this type of game". No, it is not Path of Exile but so what? It is a genre hybrid game so trying to compare it to another game that is purely of one genre is never going to work. You may not enjoy character builds but that doesn't make them inappropriate for 7 Days to Die. I enjoy them and find they give different approaches to how I play.

Why do I need to invest in strength to cook better food?

I agree that in this case the assignment of food to strength seems arbitrary. I would like to see it under fortitude or intelligence. However, I suspect that you aren't complaining about the fact that it is under strength specifically so much as you are complaining that you have to invest points into any type of attribute in order to advance in perks under that attribute. It is simply an economy that some will like and others won't.

Why am I forced to learn that pistols and rifles are governed by different "attributes" and I need to grind different perks? Why can't I just play the damn game?

Well, to be honest, you can play the damn game without investing any points into anything. I've played 2 weeks into the game before without spending a single point and was able to survive just fine. Guns still shot bullets, I was able to manage hunger and thirst, the trader bought my crap and I bought his, containers all opened and had stuff inside, and the walls of my fort still got built -- all without making any investments. So the answer is that you can play the damn game just fine without being forced to spend points anywhere.

What was already said in this thread is my point exactly - this is the type of game that is made to be LBD.

I agree that LBD could've been configured to work well with this type of game. I also like the current system. The current system is great in that I can play the game however I want in order to achieve my own objectives and then after leveling a few times I can go through and spend points in areas I wish to improve. I don't keep track of whether points came in from mining, killing, trading, or looting. I usually do some of everything as I do play organically. When I play, I want to mine because I want ore. I don't want to mine simply to improve mining. If I know that I can improve my mining if I spend it mining a little, doing a quest, chopping some trees, and building some walls, then I feel like I'm being allowed to play the game the way I want and still be able to improve my character rather than needing to just spend the day only mining-- not because I need to for survival but for the purpose of improving my mining skill.

I've always viewed character progression as a minor aspect of the game and not as the main reason to play. I felt that LBD propelled character improvement to the center spotlight making it become the major reason for playing for a lot of people.
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